James Maddison

[c1982]

42 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yes but all those are a generation older than rooney.  in the recent past and present they haven't done much of anything which is what i was saying.  we've have rodwell barkley and now davies.  they have arnold alexander who just broke onto the scene and that's it.

Carragher and Owen played with Rooney. They also gave first opportunities for Sterling and Ibe who were signed by their youth team. Flannaghan looked very handy when he broke onto the scene. Coady, the captain of Wolves too.

[markjazzbassist]

6 minutes ago, c1982 said:

Carragher and Owen played with Rooney. They also gave first opportunities for Sterling and Ibe who were signed by their youth team. Flannaghan looked very handy when he broke onto the scene. Coady, the captain of Wolves too.

yeah but he's still playing and they have been retired for a few years now.  anywho.  sterling and ibe aren't academy players which was the point.  not trying to be pedantic here just saying i don't think their academy in recent years has been anything to write home about.  

[c1982]

Sterling is a Liverpool Academy player though as he was signed as an academy player before he had made his senior debut. I had forgotten about Suso - another one who is now at AC Milan and capped by Spain. If you're talking about purely developing local lads then maybe we’ve had a couple more in the last 5 years. The thing with academy players now though is that teams are paying more to strengthen academies as we did with Markelo and Bowler etc last summer.

[StevO]

2 hours ago, nogs said:

Something in the development of our young players between the ages of 18 and 24 goes wrong. Rodwell, Baxter, Lundstram, Ledson, Barkley and so on we're all extremely highly regarded at youth level but failed to make it at the top level. Go look at how many of our academy graduates play professionally in the FL - dozens of them. To me, the fact that so few make it in our first team is a coaching, development and culture problem, and that includes the way fans at Goodison are so quick to get on young lads' backs when they don't play well. Ever wonder why the other lot always seem to produce these great young kids? It isn'ttt just talent, it's how they're nurtured and brought on. I really hope we will see that side change under Brands, but I think some fans have got to wake up and realise that expecting a kid of 19 to be the finished article, or even making statements like 'they'll never be good enough', is pretty ridiculous. 

Less than 5% of kids who come through the ranks make it to premier league standard. It’s not something the club are doing wrong. It’s hard enough for a player to make a living out of the game, even harder to reach elite level. 

[DownUnderToff]

16 minutes ago, StevO said:

Less than 5% of kids who come through the ranks make it to premier league standard. It’s not something the club are doing wrong. It’s hard enough for a player to make a living out of the game, even harder to reach elite level. 

(Curious) where are you getting that stat from and what are the parameters?  I've seen a few, and they can be confusing without context.  One was that only 0.5% make it from u9's through to that clubs first team.  This particular stat "considers" the likes of Pogba, Fabregas, etc. as "failures".

On the other hand, the latest CIES monthly report has club-trained players (at least 3 years, between 15 - 21, in team/club of employment) at 14.1% in England (only guessing that's top division).  Interesting read (brief enough), talks about correlations with roster age and success.  These findings all depend on that definition of "club-trained" player though.

Link for any interested: http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr33/en/phone/index.html

[Shukes]

The premier league is a world class league.

The work our academy does is amazing. It gives very lucrative careers to promising young lads the same as all the top academy’s do. We are in the front pile when it comes to success.... along with some of Europe’s best teams.

Alrhough we might not see a lot of first teamers come through to our club, a lot like every other team, we still help and progress a lot of young talent. 

Its rare for more than a couple of academy players to progress into premier league first teamers.

[nogs]

16 minutes ago, Shukes said:

The premier league is a world class league.

The work our academy does is amazing. It gives very lucrative careers to promising young lads the same as all the top academy’s do. We are in the front pile when it comes to success.... along with some of Europe’s best teams.

Alrhough we might not see a lot of first teamers come through to our club, a lot like every other team, we still help and progress a lot of young talent. 

Its rare for more than a couple of academy players to progress into premier league first teamers.

Actually in terms of the number of our graduates who go on to play consistently in the PL we're mid-ranking at best. Yes we produce a lot of FL professionals and that's great for them. But according to this article, we're not even in the top ten in terms of academy graduates playing in the PL this season. 

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/top-10-clubs-produce-premier-league-players/

When you see Southampton, Palace, West Ham and Leeds there, that suggests we can be doing better. From a quick scout round, those figures look faintly representative of the past few years. I genuinely think this is an area we have to improve, I'm hopeful Brands appears to think the same. 

[Makis]

How was that list calculated? What is considered an Academy product? 

[nogs]

51 minutes ago, Makis said:

How was that list calculated? What is considered an Academy product? 

It doesn't say but you'd imagine it was a player who was signed to a club on an academy deal prior to a professional contract. 

[Makis]

Then how come we have less than seven players? Kenny, Davies,  Rooney, Barkley, Baningime, Anichebe, Duffy, Mustafi. That's eight (those are all listed as Academy graduates at evertonfc.com). 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Makis said:

Then how come we have less than seven players? Kenny, Davies,  Rooney, Barkley, Baningime, Anichebe, Duffy, Mustafi. That's eight (those are all listed as Academy graduates at evertonfc.com). 

Anichebe doesn't play PL football anymore. And did Barkley make an appearance? But point taken, that's 7

[Makis]

Yes, he started two games, was subbed in both. Bournemouth and last game against Newcastle.

[Shukes]

5 hours ago, nogs said:

Actually in terms of the number of our graduates who go on to play consistently in the PL we're mid-ranking at best. Yes we produce a lot of FL professionals and that's great for them. But according to this article, we're not even in the top ten in terms of academy graduates playing in the PL this season. 

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/top-10-clubs-produce-premier-league-players/

When you see Southampton, Palace, West Ham and Leeds there, that suggests we can be doing better. From a quick scout round, those figures look faintly representative of the past few years. I genuinely think this is an area we have to improve, I'm hopeful Brands appears to think the same. 

That’s my point. Expecting them all to be premier league players is at best unreasonable. First bing young lads a promising career is more than just about Everton FC. Putting money back into the community that supports us at the same time is excellent business.

The top ten teams in those stats also have a monopoly of young lads their leagues. Do they bring them all in from 8 years old, or do they buy them like Lookman, DCL and others? 

Were well above average for giving opportunities to young lads.

[StevO]

12 hours ago, DownUnderToff said:

(Curious) where are you getting that stat from and what are the parameters?  I've seen a few, and they can be confusing without context.  One was that only 0.5% make it from u9's through to that clubs first team.  This particular stat "considers" the likes of Pogba, Fabregas, etc. as "failures".

On the other hand, the latest CIES monthly report has club-trained players (at least 3 years, between 15 - 21, in team/club of employment) at 14.1% in England (only guessing that's top division).  Interesting read (brief enough), talks about correlations with roster age and success.  These findings all depend on that definition of "club-trained" player though.

Link for any interested: http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr33/en/phone/index.html

It was from a report about six years ago that players from your U21 (at the time before U23) if one player makes it to be a first team regular you have bucked the trend. At the time the rate was just under 5% in the premier league, I would think it’s lower now with more and more foreign players coming in and the need for instant success growing. 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

That’s my point. Expecting them all to be premier league players is at best unreasonable. First bing young lads a promising career is more than just about Everton FC. Putting money back into the community that supports us at the same time is excellent business.

The top ten teams in those stats also have a monopoly of young lads their leagues. Do they bring them all in from 8 years old, or do they buy them like Lookman, DCL and others? 

Were well above average for giving opportunities to young lads.

I'm not saying our Academy doesn't do a very good job, it isn'tt a Cat 1 academy for nothing. I am saying there is room for improvement in converting talent into elite players. 

I don't think Palace and West Ham have a monopoly of talent in London either. 

[Shukes]

6 minutes ago, nogs said:

I'm not saying our Academy doesn't do a very good job, it isn'ttt a Cat 1 academy for nothing. I am saying there is room for improvement in converting talent into elite players. 

I don't think Palace and West Ham have a monopoly of talent in London either. 

No I agree with you. I just know that is recognised as one of the leading academy’s in the country.

I would also love to see more come through into our team. 

[EFC-Paul]

20 hours ago, nogs said:

Something in the development of our young players between the ages of 18 and 24 goes wrong. Rodwell, Baxter, Lundstram, Ledson, Barkley and so on we're all extremely highly regarded at youth level but failed to make it at the top level. Go look at how many of our academy graduates play professionally in the FL - dozens of them. To me, the fact that so few make it in our first team is a coaching, development and culture problem, and that includes the way fans at Goodison are so quick to get on young lads' backs when they don't play well. Ever wonder why the other lot always seem to produce these great young kids? It isn'tttt just talent, it's how they're nurtured and brought on. I really hope we will see that side change under Brands, but I think some fans have got to wake up and realise that expecting a kid of 19 to be the finished article, or even making statements like 'they'll never be good enough', is pretty ridiculous. 

How is it ridiculous to have the opinion someone won't be able to cut it at this level regardless of age, 

Some players have blatantly obvious raw ability rough diamonds who have the potential to make that next step in Davies case I see no raw attributes he can polish that will take him to the level I'd like to see us have especially in such a pivotal position 

Also I'm not getting on his back it's far more ridiculous that you expect people not to critic a player because he's 19 when others blow imo false smoke up the lads arse 

Every club has promising talent coming through the ranks we only tend to hear "how good ours are" because tlwe hear it through the usual channels, join multiple clubs forums and you'll hear the same chatter and every club has the same or a similar amount of youth players fail to make the grade it simply indicates many simply aren't good enough 

Who have the shite in recent times churned out that back up your point? Very little as with most clubs they rely on pre developed players from lower league's or abroad it's a component problem across the board but just ours 

You've gone completely off tangent of the original point and you add tidbits that I've not even stated... finished article etc, anyway I don't rate the lad but hope he proves me wrong  

 

[nogs]

 "I really don't think the lads good enough for a starting spot and never will be." 

They were your words Paul - how have I gone off on a tangent? I know it's all opinions but I find it slightly bizarre and frustrating that people are writing off a 19 year old who has played more in the PL than any other teenager currently in the league. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'cut it at this level' either because as far as I can see, he has broken through, he is a PL footballer and he will be for many years to come!

Anyway, we'll end up going round in circles here, but it frustrates me because I see the same negativity starting that poisoned Barkley's time here. You say why shouldn't you criticise him just because he's 19 - fine, criticise the poor performances, but you're doing more than that aren't you, you've already made a judgment about the rest of his career, in your mind he isn'tt good enough. I'm not saying he was great this season, but he did OK in an awful team, he was often on the pitch during our best moments. I just completely disagree that he has nothing to offer, he's a hugely talented lad and I really hope he gets the support of the new manager and is allowed to fulfil his potential in a settled, successful team. 

[Shukes]

It’s a bit like the Gana debate.

hes nowhere near a premier league level player..... well yes he is, FACT!

Davies won’t make a premier league first teamer.... well yes he already is, FACT!

Now whether people rate him is their opinion and there’s alone. You can have an opinion that white is closer to black than white.... but it doesn’t mean it’s right.

[Guest]

Can we make a new thread for this titled 'midfield debate'.i keep on popping in to see if we've signed him only to read the same old shit.

[EFC-Paul]

12 hours ago, nogs said:

 "I really don't think the lads good enough for a starting spot and never will be." 

They were your words Paul - how have I gone off on a tangent? I know it's all opinions but I find it slightly bizarre and frustrating that people are writing off a 19 year old who has played more in the PL than any other teenager currently in the league. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'cut it at this level' either because as far as I can see, he has broken through, he is a PL footballer and he will be for many years to come!

Anyway, we'll end up going round in circles here, but it frustrates me because I see the same negativity starting that poisoned Barkley's time here. You say why shouldn't you criticise him just because he's 19 - fine, criticise the poor performances, but you're doing more than that aren't you, you've already made a judgment about the rest of his career, in your mind he isn'ttttt good enough. I'm not saying he was great this season, but he did OK in an awful team, he was often on the pitch during our best moments. I just completely disagree that he has nothing to offer, he's a hugely talented lad and I really hope he gets the support of the new manager and is allowed to fulfil his potential in a settled, successful team. 

You don't half waffle on Nogs I'm not being funny mate but you just repeat things I've already said that are blatantly clear, I haven't written the lads "whole career" off I've said I don't think he'll ever be good enough for us as a starting player as we want to push on 

You don't have to be a wizard to have an opinion and the foresight that someone doesn't have the natural ability to get to a level they require/hope it's just how I see it as I did with Gosling Rodwell and Barkley to an extent

Yes going off on a tangent by going from me criticing Davies to waffling on about youth set ups being poor etc when it's completely off point and had no substance even behind it 

I don't rate the lad and I don't think he'll ever be the calibre we "should" have starting in our side 

Shukes the "should" as I've clearly implied in previous posts is my key point, the lad wouldn't be starting for us if we hadn't turned into an absolute bag of shite thats my point 

It's not hard to understand I've not said he's not a premier league first teamer I've said for us he isn'tttt good enough just because he's playing means fuck all to water down my point I guess Martina is a world beater then....

I don't think he's at a level we need and unlike Barkley who clearly had the potential Davies doesn't have the raw ability to polish, you can pull multiple players names out of the air and make similar cases it doesn't make them good enough the majority of the time it's circumstantial as said Martina being an obvious one 

I'll leave it there and we'll come back to it in a season or two, I could be well off I hope I am I just don't see it 

 

[Shukes]

Don’t start on me Paul! 

Haha only joking. Your right, everyone is entitled to say what they think and how they see things. I was just pointing out a few facts that’s all... not saying that you dont agree or see them. 

Davies got into the team last year and was involved in some excellent matches. I don’t think he has managed to keep that level up this year, but I do t think he should be written off just yet either. His youth has got the better of him this year as he has tried to live up to his previous performances.... and could be trying to hard.

[EFC-Paul]

10 hours ago, Shukes said:

Don’t start on me Paul! 

Haha only joking. Your right, everyone is entitled to say what they think and how they see things. I was just pointing out a few facts that’s all... not saying that you dont agree or see them. 

Davies got into the team last year and was involved in some excellent matches. I don’t think he has managed to keep that level up this year, but I do t think he should be written off just yet either. His youth has got the better of him this year as he has tried to live up to his previous performances.... and could be trying to hard.

Packed up the e-cig last week then back to 12 hr night shifts after nearly two months off on the sick so I'm a tetchy git lately to say the least so no offense intended

 

[Newty82]

50 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said:

Packed up the e-cig last week then back to 12 hr night shifts after nearly two months off on the sick so I'm a tetchy git lately to say the least so no offense intended

 

Don't think anyone noticed to be honest....

[Romey 1878]

 

 

[nyblue23]

He looks tidy on the ball, quick and deceptive, but echoing others' thoughts on here, just don't see why we'd go for another number 10 while we still have Siggy, Klaassen and Dowell on the books.

[EFC-Paul]

3 hours ago, nyblue23 said:

He looks tidy on the ball, quick and deceptive, but echoing others' thoughts on here, just don't see why we'd go for another number 10 while we still have Siggy, Klaassen and Dowell on the books.

Sig is clearly going to be first choice and the jury is still out on Davy (I think he'll come good tbh) but Maddison is a much better and rounded player than Dowell imo 

I like Dowell though and it would be nice to have both potentially battling it out but I'd pick Maddison over him hands down ATM 

[Shukes]

Didn’t know much about him to be honest so I have watched the usual you tube vids of his best bits.

This lad looks a real player. He will be a top level player, as in a top six team player without doubt. Would love this to come through. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, EFC-Paul said:

Sig is clearly going to be first choice and the jury is still out on Davy (I think he'll come good tbh) but Maddison is a much better and rounded player than Dowell imo 

I like Dowell though and it would be nice to have both potentially battling it out but I'd pick Maddison over him hands down ATM 

Nogs is going to skin you alive  

[Romey 1878]

https://www.101greatgoals.com/news/transfers/southampton-everton-maddison-deal/