nyblue23 Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 Sometimes, our wild imaginings come true! Earlier today, I was thinking through the situation with the special prosecutor. If I were Donald Trump (heaven help me!), how would I bring the investigation into possible collusion with Russia to a close? Well, I'd need to fire the attorney general and replace him with someone willing to fire the special prosecutor and end the investigation. But Congress would never approve someone willing to do that. Ah, but once Congress goes on recess, the president can make a recess appointment that needs no approval. Problem solved. Well, not quite. The attorney general has won sympathy in Congress since the president threw him under the bus a few days ago, so something must be done to turn them against him. Lo and behold, what happened this evening? An anonymous source tells the Washington Post that the Attorney General spoke about campaign details to the Russian ambassador via a boast the latter made when communicating with Moscow. Of course, the tapping of Russian phones is secret and cannot be verified. The source is anonymous and cannot be revealed. The Russian ambassador wouldn't contradict the story. It's the perfect unverifiable story. Now everyone, from both parties, is turning against the attorney general, and the president will have the excuse he needs to fire him, make a recess appointment, fire the special prosecutor, and end the investigation. La voila! Sadly, it looks like everyone is falling for it. The scariest part is that I'm beginning to believe that the sinister being living insidr of Trump is actually quite intelligent, and strong-arms the vast majority of him which is pure and unadultered moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 23, 2017 Report Share Posted July 23, 2017 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40692709 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elston Gunnn Posted July 23, 2017 Report Share Posted July 23, 2017 This will be a long post. I'll link to 3 articles, and offer my own analysis, the thrust of which is that Trump is a total disaster, but that the deeper problem is that large majorities of Trump voters exhibit willful ignorance that is dangerously stupid. Existentially dangerous to democracy. First, an in-depth poll. Just scroll to 2d page, the Russia stuff. You'll be amazed at the willful ignorance. http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2017/PPP_Release_National_71817.pdf Then a good article by an actual conservative, as opposed to reactionary nutters posing as modern American conservatives. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/07/19/donald-trump-jr-moral-treason-gabriel-schoenfeld-column/484361001/ And more to the point I want to empasize, here's a piece from the Guardian on some (willfully ignorant) Trump voters. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/20/donald-trump-support-base-hillary-clinton-hatred-pennsylvania And now, my own take, for now. As "Trumpestilence" will not end in the very near future, I suppose my critique of him and his base may grow even darker...... Although one might quibble over what percentage of Trump voters fail the test of sentience, strictly defined, Schoenfeld (2d link above) is right in the everyday sense that one has to be willfully ignorant to deny Russian interference and Trump campaign encouragement thereof. Schoenfeld's reference to a large percentage of Trump voters being unwilling to acknowledge explicit disloyalty strikes me as a perfect example of the hypocrisy of the superpatriots, who act so unpatriotically as to demonstrate Paul Krugman's observation that millions of Republicans "hold basic American political values in contempt." Basic. Contempt. Schoenfeld's reference to "calling things what they are" leads me to note that we need more articles with analyses of the "unimaginable depth of delirium of these lost souls." Some subsets of the Trump Coalition are more delirious and lost than others, but they all either fully represent or are willing to manipulate "reactionary populism," a desperate desire to turn back the clock to the 1950s, when white men ran the country, oil was plentiful, and God was on our side. The delirious, willful ignorance of these lost souls pushes us ever closer to existentially dangerous stupidity. Trump is a sociopath, a pathological liar, an extreme narcissist, an amoral vulgarian. But this incurious ignoramus was elected by millions of incurious ignoramuses. They don't care that Trump knows nothing, because... he's not Hillary Clinton! (Or any other uppity woman.) They are angrily proud to support a man who speaks - all the more powerful for his honest, if buffoonish, inarticulateness - what's on their minds. A real man of the real people, talking their kind of straight talk. Exactly: their kind of straight talk. The survey cited in the 1st link above and the article about Trump voters (3d link above) do begin to tiptoe nervously toward the subject most critics prefer to avoid: what we euphemistically refer to as "low-information voters." This is perhaps a misnomer: they have plenty of info; it's just inaccurate, false info. Thus, low-information voters are more accurately characterized as high-misinformation voters. It is an act of willful ignorance to depend on Fox and nutter-radio for one's "news." Fox and talk radio-misinformed viewers/listeners are daily rendered more, not less, ignorant. They are living - and alas, voting - proof that the line between extreme ignorance and deranged stupidity is at some point so nanothin as to become invisible, meaningless. The Emperor has no clothes? The naked dullardry of millions of the Emperor's fiercely loyal subjects is pretty tough to continue to ignore. We cannot look away, or avoid this discomfiting popular derangement. Cynical Republican "leaders," having adopted the calculated, dicey strategy of "coming home to Trump," now look hoist by their own petard. Two of the Great Cynics of the early 21st century, Speaker Paul Ryan and Leader Mitch McConnell, bemoan TweetTrump, but delicately avoid commenting on metastasizing Trumpestilence. Occasionally - such as in some responses to recent revelations of Trump, Jr's attempted collusion-by-patsy - one of them will mutter some half-chastisement. I assume the vast majority of Republican Senators fantasize that Trump might somehow depart the Presidency, so the dependable VP Pence can calm our dyspeptic political waters and revive Reaganism. But until then, because they are cynical cowards who recognize and fear, but dare not confront, the ghastly stupidity of so many of their constituents, they are stuck trying to control the temper tantrums of our first Fantasist-President. Here's hoping Special Counselor Robert Mueller is following the money: "What is President Trump hiding, and why is he hiding it?" This should be the mantra of the Democrats, and of all actual, as opposed to faux, American patriots. It echoes the famous Watergate question, but is more precise, and gets to that which Trump most fears: revelations about his financial misdeeds over decades. The answer, generally, is already pretty clear, but we don't know the despicable details; and we have to pretend that there might be some "logical explanation" for Trump's strange Presidency. The bloody obvious explanation is that he's an existentially dangerous sociopath who has cheated virtually everyone with whom he has done business, and, most dismaying and ominous of all, that his "reactionary populist"/"real people" base have made themselves by their willful ignorance his willing accomplices in destroying American democracy. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 23, 2017 Report Share Posted July 23, 2017 Interesting read that EG. Last bit of the Guardian piece is telling (from Trump voters)... Kim Green, 52, agreed that Trump the man – his personal sympathies and his policy priorities – was more important than Trump the Republican. “Because he’s for the common man,” she said. “And I don’t care what anybody says about how much money he has and everything else. He’s just like everybody else, he’s for us.” “Or it’s the biggest scam America’s ever fell for,” Rich Green interjected. “One of the two.” You're right Rich, it's certainly one of the two; for anyone with a double digit IQ it's pretty obvious which one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elston Gunnn Posted July 23, 2017 Report Share Posted July 23, 2017 MikeO - Glad you quoted that punchline to the Guardian piece. The issue of the ignorance/stupidity of a large subset of Trump voters is for most of my liberal acquaintances a delicate one. And of course most American journalist-commentators tend to discuss Trump voters only in terms of poll numbers. On TV, sometimes commentators will sort of smile nervously, even shake their heads at "real American"/Trump voters' views; but understandably they avoid using the word "ignorance," much less "stupidity." Prominent among my mantras these days is, "willful ignorance is dangerously stupid." This allows me to hedge, by arguing that vast numbers of Trump voters aren't inherently stupid, but that by their willful ignorance they make themselves stupid. In this case dangerously stupid. At some point the line between deep, deep ignorance and stupidity is meaningless. I'll be surprised if we don't move inexorably toward a constitutional crisis. Honestly, for me, we're already there. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyblue23 Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Interesting read that EG. Last bit of the Guardian piece is telling (from Trump voters)... Kim Green, 52, agreed that Trump the man his personal sympathies and his policy priorities was more important than Trump the Republican. Because hes for the common man, she said. And I dont care what anybody says about how much money he has and everything else. Hes just like everybody else, hes for us. Or its the biggest scam Americas ever fell for, Rich Green interjected. One of the two. You're right Rich, it's certainly one of the two; for anyone with a double digit IQ it's pretty obvious which one. You have to wonder in that quote,(and the opinion is not at all limited to her), what is meant by "he's just like everybody else." My only thought is that it means unintelligent and prone to irrational fear and conspiracy. Matt and Sibdane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Kim Green, 52, agreed that Trump the man – his personal sympathies and his policy priorities – was more important than Trump the Republican. “Because he’s for the common man,” she said. “And I don’t care what anybody says about how much money he has and everything else. He’s just like everybody else, he’s for us.” Listened to podcast between Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert, pro-Trump) and Sam Harris last week. Adams is basically a Trump apologist who thinks that Trump is essentially a genius and "master persuader" who is fully in control of what he's doing even when he lies. I found Adams and most his arguments pretty disingenuous but the voter psychology part is interesting, I think if you exchange "master persuader" for "lifelong sociopathic brat" it still works. https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/the-6-persuasion-secrets-of-donald-trump-according-to-dilbert-s-scott-adams.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just gets more bizarre by the day. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40715185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Listened to podcast between Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert, pro-Trump) and Sam Harris last week. Adams is basically a Trump apologist who thinks that Trump is essentially a genius and "master persuader" who is fully in control of what he's doing even when he lies. I found Adams and most his arguments pretty disingenuous but the voter psychology part is interesting, I think if you exchange "master persuader" for "lifelong sociopathic brat" it still works. https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/the-6-persuasion-secrets-of-donald-trump-according-to-dilbert-s-scott-adams.html Will never be able to laugh at Dilbert again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Will never be able to laugh at Dilbert again He gave a few things away during the course of the interview that made me think he may have been sitting there in a tin foil hat 1) Donald Jnr didn't go to the FBI after contact by Russian actors because he may have been concerned that "Comey would leak the information" 2) "The government is listening to us all the time" He also apparently switched his endorsement around during the campaign but then after said he only switched to Clinton because he feared for his life. Have always thought that there's a fine line between genius and insanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elston Gunnn Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 I'll repeat something I said earlier, sort of thinking aloud, willing to be corrected. In my view, we should not shy away from using hard words to describe Trump, who represents an existential threat to democracy. Admittedly, there's a danger in using hard words, as such a harsh verdict may well offend the vast majority of Trump voters. I am myself pretty close to a hermit, so I have had no occasion to engage Trump loyalists. Although polls seem to indicate some erosion in Trump-support, that he is still viewed favorably by 38-40% of his voters, after multiple - multiple multiple - outrageous acts, is deeply troubling. Millions of Americans are so desperately angry that they've gone mad. At any rate, avoiding for now the issue of Trump's faithful supporters, here are the hard words I think we cannot avoid applying to Trump himself. These words, I think, can be supported by multiple examples. Some of them refer to his character, others to his personality. But I am not certain I can keep these categories straight, or separate. Trump's character -- sociopath pathological liar extreme narcissist amoral vulgarian incurious ignoramus Trump's personality -- And here I think of his strikingly ugly "performance" Monday night at the Scout Jamboree, his latest outrage. boor -- ill-mannered churl -- mean-spirited lout -- uncouth Perhaps these "personality words" might equally be applied to the stereotypical football hooligan. (Some of you would know better than I; not because of personal history, but because of geographic proximity.). But if so, it cannot be controversial to say that we really should not abide a football hooligan in the American Presidency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/26/politics/trump-military-transgender/index.html Here he is, Adolf Trump. Unlucky transatlantic friends. How have you done this to yourselves? Literally, can only laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Unlucky transatlantic friends. How have you done this to yourselves? Literally, can only laugh. That's a question I struggle with everyday. I have no idea how we got here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 J i didn't vote for him, i blame the dumb ass people who fell for his braggadocio (my parents included). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 I'm pretty sure most of you didn't(vote for him) because you all seem decent in mind (and I mean that sincerely). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 I'm pretty sure most of you didn't(vote for him) because you all seem decent in mind (and I mean that sincerely). he lost the popular vote by a lot. won the electoral vote because that system is whack. it was designed for 1776 not 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Do you get the impression they don't have a clue what the Acronym stands for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 https://twitter.com/IvankaTrump/status/870450538235785217 Do you get the impression they don't have a clue what the Acronym stands for? they know exactly what's going on. This is media play for the deluded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyblue23 Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 https://twitter.com/IvankaTrump/status/870450538235785217 Do you get the impression they don't have a clue what the Acronym stands for? This also the one and only broad issue (gender/sexuality) that Ivanka and Kushner have demonstrated a clear desire to ideologically separate themselves from Orange man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Elston Gunnn Posted July 26, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Unlucky transatlantic friends. How have you done this to yourselves? J i didn't vote for him, i blame the dumb ass people who fell for his braggadocio (my parents included) he lost the popular vote by a lot. won the electoral vote because that system is whack. it was designed for 1776 not 2017. I'll offer 2 answers to Lowensda's "How have you done this?" question. (1) Structurally, MJB's reference to the Electoral College is the key. The Electoral College was from beginning - 1787, when the Constitution was written - designed to offer some protection to small (less population) states, which were afraid they'd be overwhelmed politically by the large states. One way to give a measure of such protection was to make all states equal in the US Senate by giving all states 2 Senators. So, sparsely populated states such as Wyoming, South and North Dakota, and Montana have the same number of US Senators as the most populous state, California. But as each state's Electoral College vote total equals its number of members in the US House of Representatives plus 2 (its number of Senators), this means the less populous states are overrepresented in the Electoral College. It's not a proportional-to-population system. This is why it's possible for a candidate to win the popular vote, but lose the Electoral College. This has rarely happened in US history, but in a closely divided country as we now are, it might happen more frequently. And of course it did happen in 2016, as Trump won by a solid Electoral College majority, while Clinton won a solid popular vote majority. (2) But the much deeper problem - in my very unapologetic opinion - is noted in MJB's other tag quote above: dumbasses. More precisely, our incurious ignoramus of a President was elected by millions of incurious ignoramuses. I won't repeat literally every word I posted in posts 1177 and 1179 above. But the phenomenon of stubborn, willful ignorance leading to dangerous stupidity has led the US to this catastrophe. We now have tens of millions of Americans who essentially don't believe in science, don't believe in evidence, don't believe in facts. Although they may call themselves "conservative," they are actually "reactionaries," who yearn to recreate the US of the 1950s, when the US was on top of the world, women, African Americans, and children knew their place, and God was pleased. MikeO, nyblue23, Sibdane and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 agree with you elston, great post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Foiled again. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40750071 markjazzbassist and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Foiled again. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40750071 their attempts to remove obamacare have been beaten so many times now they are truly defeated. they have done nothing in his first year with both house and senate majority. even their own party votes against them. they're going to move on to some small bills to get some press photos of him signing stuff for ads and right wing media to tout. honestly the blame is on trump. until a couple days ago he never spoke about the healthcare bill. obama was travelling the country doing rounds, talking minute details, telling everyone how great it was going to be. he worked that deal into existence with the congress. meanwhile trump pits himself against everyone. no wonder some repubs are against him. the next big thing is the russia sanctions. both house and senate dems and repubs voted to sanction russia more due to election meddling. it's at trumps desk now for signature. if he vetoes you might as well just resign because we all know why he would, collusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elston Gunnn Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 In the early hours of last night/this morning, I watched the Senate vote on the hilariously, pathetically named "Skinny repeal" bill. It was incredibly dramatic. Symbolic of the utter chaos that is the Trump "administration," we had the outlandish situation that almost all Republicans voted for a bill that almost none of them wanted to see become law. They desperately hoped that somehow passing this idiotic bill would allow them to conference with the US House leaders to craft an entirely different bill to destroy Obamacare. To be clear, I personally think Obamacare is deeply flawed, and Democrats acknowledge that it needs reforming. Given last night's result, Trump has already tweeted his hope that Obamacare "implodes," so we can expect he and Republicans generally will "administer" the Obamacare part of the American healthcare system in such a way as to punish millions of working and poor Americans. And yes, millions of these millions voted for Trump. For the most part, this healthcare fiasco affects only Americans. But the world - the rational part of the inhabitants of this planet - should be very worried about the Trump presidency, and its near-total incompetence. A mere 6 months into this Presidency, Trump's incompetence threatens world stability. I use the term "Trumpestilence" as a way of saying the President is an existential threat, a looming plague. There are very, very few competent people in the Trump administration. Right now, today, only Secretary of Defense James Mattis and National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster are capable of dealing with a foreign policy crisis. Leaders around the world - UK, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, North Korea, you name it - either must plan how to protect themselves in a US-gone-mad world, or gladly plan how to take advantage of a US-gone-mad. Trump's total - total - instability threatens the precarious stability of an already unstable world. Sibdane and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 We're missing something completely here. Donald Trump won the presidency because many millions voted for him. They are not all dumb-asses, not at all. They are frustrated by arrogance in government, the idea that "nanny knows best." Plus they look back, with rose-colored specs, to a time when minorities were fewer in number and less demanding of their rights. Nothing that's happened in the last chaotic and laughable six months has changed their view. If the election were held again today, the outcome is likely to be very similar. Let's not underestimate the power of right-wing ideology, of ever more aggressive right-wing chat shows, and the bias of Fox News. It's too easy simply to say that everyone who voted for Trump is either ignorant or stupid: They are not. As for John McCain... With his recent diagnosis of brain cancer, he could have simply stayed in Arizona and let the healthcare bill die by default. Instead, he got on a plane and consciously, bravely, and very visibly voted 'no', despite threats and bullying from colleagues and the president. That took a lot of courage. What he's upset about is that the two parties won't work together to craft a compromise bill that everyday people would be happy with. It's about time someone stepped out of their ideological caucus and demanded that the parties work together. I may disagree with John McCain on a number of things, but he is undoubtedly a courageous politician. Matt and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 We're missing something completely here. Donald Trump won the presidency because many millions voted for him. They are not all dumb-asses, not at all. They are frustrated by arrogance in government, the idea that "nanny knows best." Plus they look back, with rose-colored specs, to a time when minorities were fewer in number and less demanding of their rights. Nothing that's happened in the last chaotic and laughable six months has changed their view. If the election were held again today, the outcome is likely to be very similar. Let's not underestimate the power of right-wing ideology, of ever more aggressive right-wing chat shows, and the bias of Fox News. It's too easy simply to say that everyone who voted for Trump is either ignorant or stupid: They are not. As for John McCain... With his recent diagnosis of brain cancer, he could have simply stayed in Arizona and let the healthcare bill die by default. Instead, he got on a plane and consciously, bravely, and very visibly voted 'no', despite threats and bullying from colleagues and the president. That took a lot of courage. What he's upset about is that the two parties won't work together to craft a compromise bill that everyday people would be happy with. It's about time someone stepped out of their ideological caucus and demanded that the parties work together. I may disagree with John McCain on a number of things, but he is undoubtedly a courageous politician. One minor correction. The problem isn't that both won't work on the bill (dems willing to) that the repubs WONT work with dems. Very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 has anyone watched series 19 of South Park? It's utter genius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 One minor correction. The problem isn't that both won't work on the bill (dems willing to) that the repubs WONT work with dems. Very different. The Democrats were just as bad when they passed the Affordable Care Act in the first place. Of course they're claiming how they've always wanted to work together, but that's hooey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 And to put another perspective of John McCain's vote: "You claimed months ago that I'm not a hero because, as a pilot, I was captured and tortured by the enemy. Here's what I think of you, Mr. President..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 The Democrats were just as bad when they passed the Affordable Care Act in the first place. Of course they're claiming how they've always wanted to work together, but that's hooey. wrong again, the republicans refused to work with obama from day 1. they're the only ones who refuse to compromise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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