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Trump in charge (ex race for the US presidency thread)

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5 hours ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Calling your opponents deplorables, racists, bigots and Nazis is hardly endearing. The vast majority of people are liberal leaning, live and let live. Unfortunately the left leaning parties have seen fit to push a social marxists agenda and embarked upon a purity spiral where they eat their own.

Can you give some examples of where the "the left leaning parties have seen fit to push a social marxists agenda and embarked upon a purity spiral where they eat their own."

 

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5 hours ago, Chach said:

Can you give some examples of where the "the left leaning parties have seen fit to push a social marxists agenda and embarked upon a purity spiral where they eat their own."

 

Okay I'll bite one more time as I have quickly found that this is an echo chamber.

The vilification of Tulsi Gabbard and accusations that she is a Russian asset by Hillary Clinton is quite possibly the worst example of it. Some lesser examples are the dog piling of people like Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling over their stance on gender identity.

Again, I'm leaving this thread now as I'm not keen on having my rep downvoted away for not being pure enough.

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1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Okay I'll bite one more time as I have quickly found that this is an echo chamber.

The vilification of Tulsi Gabbard and accusations that she is a Russian asset by Hillary Clinton is quite possibly the worst example of it. Some lesser examples are the dog piling of people like Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling over their stance on gender identity.

Again, I'm leaving this thread now as I'm not keen on having my rep downvoted away for not being pure enough.

You get my upvote Paul but, like you say, we are in a small and select group in this echo chamber. I take my rep being downvoted as a badge of honour. I would be more concerned if it was upvoted by many on this thread who seem to have great difficulty in separating rational thought processes from their jaundiced agendas.

Just to get back on track and to offer some factual evidence to those who struggle to believe what Trump suggested about Iran shooting down the B737-800. Iran has now admitted it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51073621

I have supported Everton since 1969 and I don't accept the level of ignorant vitriol displayed on this board as being Evertonian behaviour in any way, shape or form. We used to be so accepting of contrary opinions and to use our humour to deal with any conflicting views while still remaining good friends. It now seems as though the poison of division has even infested our support base.

Very sad but I'm going nowhere.

Hopefully people will reflect on their attitudes and realise that NSNO applies not just to the club but also the supporters.

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50 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Okay I'll bite one more time as I have quickly found that this is an echo chamber.

The vilification of Tulsi Gabbard and accusations that she is a Russian asset by Hillary Clinton is quite possibly the worst example of it. Some lesser examples are the dog piling of people like Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling over their stance on gender identity.

Again, I'm leaving this thread now as I'm not keen on having my rep downvoted away for not being pure enough.

Ok so first off, those quotes from Hillary Clinton did not accuse TG of being a Russian asset, she alluded that Russians had a favourite candidate that they were assisting with bots and that's a demonstrable fact, the context was a discussion on a podcast about the GOP's strategy and it was Gabbard's decision to misquote her in the hope she could use it for political gain, but how is that a "social marxist agenda"?

Also, please supply an example of a mainstream Democrat leader getting involved in the pile of on JKR or MN.

You don't have leave the thread, I'm sure @MikeOis planning to remove those downvotes when he's calmed down.

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2 hours ago, RPG said:

I have supported Everton since 1969 and I don't accept the level of ignorant vitriol displayed on this board as being Evertonian behaviour in any way, shape or form. We used to be so accepting of contrary opinions and to use our humour to deal with any conflicting views while still remaining good friends. It now seems as though the poison of division has even infested our support base.

Very sad but I'm going nowhere.

Hopefully people will reflect on their attitudes and realise that NSNO applies not just to the club but also the supporters.

Nothing in this thread has anything to do with being an Evertonian. Why would anyone political views have anything to do with the football team they support? It’s ridiculous! Me and my Dad have both supported Everton all our lives, I’m so close to him, but we still have different politic views. 

On that point I heard a young Arsenal player get called a Tory cunt at the match the other week, I can only assume it was because he had a double barrelled name. It was so stupid it made me laugh. 

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1 hour ago, StevO said:

Nothing in this thread has anything to do with being an Evertonian.

That's why it's in the "off topic" section😉

Edit: Ah sorry didn't read the post you were quoting so missed the context.

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3 hours ago, StevO said:

Nothing in this thread has anything to do with being an Evertonian. Why would anyone political views have anything to do with the football team they support? It’s ridiculous! Me and my Dad have both supported Everton all our lives, I’m so close to him, but we still have different politic views. 

On that point I heard a young Arsenal player get called a Tory cunt at the match the other week, I can only assume it was because he had a double barrelled name. It was so stupid it made me laugh. 

It might be 'off topic' but we are still Evertonians discussing the subject are we not?

I am not suggesting we should all have the same views. I am not suggesting we shouldn't express our different views. But there is a tendency from some to attack others who don't agree with them.

I thought we were better than that.

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4 hours ago, RPG said:

It might be 'off topic' but we are still Evertonians discussing the subject are we not?

I am not suggesting we should all have the same views. I am not suggesting we shouldn't express our different views. But there is a tendency from some to attack others who don't agree with them.

I thought we were better than that.

So what has us being Evertonians got to do with anything then? It’s completely irrelevant. 

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On 10/01/2020 at 19:31, TallPaul1878 said:

What you have to understand is that for a great many Americans they had just had 8 years of Democrat rule. Further expansion of war in the middle east, further decay of the fly over states and for them it was just about having something different. Hillary absolutely represented more of the same and that was something that, obviously, a great many people didn't want.

Without blowing my own trumpet I predicted Trump to win, I predicted Brexit, I predicted a massive victory for the Conservatives in the election just gone and, unless of some big developments, I'm gonna call another term for Trump.

For the vast majority of Americans the issues around Trump are irrelevant. Democrats are pushing ever further left, having candidates speaking in Spanish to pander to the latino vote, pursuing a partisan impeachment on what appear to be trumped up charges. The middle ground is not with the Democrats and they have no figurehead who can take Trump on.

There was a study done based on policy position amongst the two major parties. Whilst both had shifted further on the political spectrum it showed that the Democrats had shifted significantly more to the left than the Republicans had shifted to the right. Socialism is just a really hard sell in the USA and the Democrats have gotten the reputation of being the party of minorities and "woke" culture.

For the ordinary American, as it is in the UK, social issues like gay marriage, abortion rights etc just really don't matter. They don't put food on the table and keep the mortgages paid. The Democrats, just as the Labour Party in Britain, have managed to give themselves the reputation of being anti white working class and if they keep up with that they are doomed to failure.

Calling your opponents deplorables, racists, bigots and Nazis is hardly endearing. The vast majority of people are liberal leaning, live and let live. Unfortunately the left leaning parties have seen fit to push a social marxists agenda and embarked upon a purity spiral where they eat their own.

I’m not going to give you a dislike for what you said Paul, because I know how they have hurt you now and in the past, but I do think you are wrong and the best way I can prove that to you is by looking at who gave you a like. 

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On 11/01/2020 at 21:50, StevO said:

So what has us being Evertonians got to do with anything then? It’s completely irrelevant. 

It should dictate the level of courtesy and respect shown between us when discussing emotive subjects on which we  may have contrary opinions.

In most cases, to be fair, it does. But in too many cases it does not. And that risks turning the board into a left wing, mutual back slapping echo chamber where no contrary views can be accepted. And where no people with contrary views will bother posting. If that's what the guys that run the board want, then that is fine but you will never get a rounded discussion of any 'off topic' subject if that is the path chosen.

Paul already looks to have abandoned this thread because of it and he has my support.

 

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On 11/01/2020 at 23:25, MikeO said:

I think corporate manslaughter charges could be justified...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51058929

That is certainly a possibility. They will have to prove either straightforward negligence or wilful neglect of flagged safety issues (reckless endangerment) but it may well be possible to do that.

It is a shame as Boeing have always built great aircraft but the MCAS on the B737 Max does appear to be poorly designed, improperly tested and released to service too soon. There are also issues related to lack of training for crew on the system which, had it taken place, may well have saved lives and Boeing's reputation.

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14 hours ago, Palfy said:

I’m not going to give you a dislike for what you said Paul, because I know how they have hurt you now and in the past, but I do think you are wrong and the best way I can prove that to you is by looking at who gave you a like. 

Hilarious Palfy. You have been told to mind your manners (and rightly so) but you still can't help yourself can you.

Can I suggest that you get back to trying to play the ball and not the man.

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2 hours ago, StevO said:

On any subject, football or otherwise, for over a decade we have all argued and often in groups who agree and groups who don’t. We have lost members, we have gained members, this place is what it is. We all agree on many things, we all disagree on many things, mods included, but it’s still here. We all keep coming back. 
We don’t have to agree, we can argue, there has always been a level of civility that makes us different, and often a whole lot friendlier, than other Everton based websites. So much so that over the years we’ve had many contributors who are not Evertonians. 

No one has to stay, no one has to come back, very few are made to leave. If you don’t enjoy it why are you coming here?

Paul enjoys it, I know he does, he’s all over the Everton based topics and being a big contributor to the main threads in here. I doubt Paul will leave TT because some people don’t agree with his views on the US. 

This community works, if it didn’t I would’ve have been here for nearly 15 years. 

Buggered if you do buggered if you don’t, opinions can’t be equally split on all subjects, regardless if it’s football religion or politics, we are fundamentally here as Everton supporters and can’t always agree on Everton issues, sometimes it’s light hearted sometimes it’s toxic, so to expect political discussions to be tame and inoffensive I feel would be an ask to much, it doesn’t happen between those running the government and opposition parties why would you expect it to be any different here. 
 


 

 

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5 hours ago, StevO said:

On any subject, football or otherwise, for over a decade we have all argued and often in groups who agree and groups who don’t. We have lost members, we have gained members, this place is what it is. We all agree on many things, we all disagree on many things, mods included, but it’s still here. We all keep coming back. 
We don’t have to agree, we can argue, there has always been a level of civility that makes us different, and often a whole lot friendlier, than other Everton based websites. So much so that over the years we’ve had many contributors who are not Evertonians. 

No one has to stay, no one has to come back, very few are made to leave. If you don’t enjoy it why are you coming here?

Paul enjoys it, I know he does, he’s all over the Everton based topics and being a big contributor to the main threads in here. I doubt Paul will leave TT because some people don’t agree with his views on the US. 

This community works, if it didn’t I would’ve have been here for nearly 15 years. 

Don't worry lads I'm not gonna cry off because of a disagreement on the boards.

Perhaps I should have qualified my post beforehand by stating I'm pretty much an anarchist at this point and don't have any skin in the game as far as American politics are concerned. Same too for British politics, I feel totally disenfranchised by all the big parties and all of the small ones too.

My point was that sections of Democrats still don't seem to understand why so many people went for Trump rather than so many people didn't want Hillary and then they just go on to call them deplorables etc. It almost ensures Trump another victory.

I find talking to progressives really difficult. I get the impression that they act in bad faith, the constant demand for examples etc just has you chasing your tail rather than them trying to take on board and understand your thoughts and feelings.

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36 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Don't worry lads I'm not gonna cry off because of a disagreement on the boards.

I didn’t think you would and I don’t know how that suggestion came about, I think you’re a very good poster who gives insightful views that encourages debate, not everyone is going to agree with you or like what you say that’s par for the course, but you know that so I’m sure it won’t be a problem and you will carry on as previously. 
Any how what’s the point of leaving everyone comes back eventually😉

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13 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I didn’t think you would and I don’t know how that suggestion came about, I think you’re a very good poster who gives insightful views that encourages debate, not everyone is going to agree with you or like what you say that’s par for the course, but you know that so I’m sure it won’t be a problem and you will carry on as previously. 
Any how what’s the point of leaving everyone comes back eventually😉

Sometimes you need to take a step back. Especially when you are tired

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7 hours ago, StevO said:

On any subject, football or otherwise, for over a decade we have all argued and often in groups who agree and groups who don’t. We have lost members, we have gained members, this place is what it is. We all agree on many things, we all disagree on many things, mods included, but it’s still here. We all keep coming back. 
We don’t have to agree, we can argue, there has always been a level of civility that makes us different, and often a whole lot friendlier, than other Everton based websites. So much so that over the years we’ve had many contributors who are not Evertonians. 

No one has to stay, no one has to come back, very few are made to leave. If you don’t enjoy it why are you coming here?

Paul enjoys it, I know he does, he’s all over the Everton based topics and being a big contributor to the main threads in here. I doubt Paul will leave TT because some people don’t agree with his views on the US. 

This community works, if it didn’t I would’ve have been here for nearly 15 years. 

No argument with your basic premise but when it comes to the subjects, particularly, of Trump and Brexit, some people have problems containing their prejudices and lines of decency can get crossed.

I could turn your argument right back on those very people regarding not leaving the community. We are citizens of a democratic community (Country). The democratic decision in UK is to have Johnson as PM (by a massive majority) and to leave EU, and the democratic decision in USA is to have Trump as President.

Noone has to stay in these communities (Countries) if they don't like those democratic decisions. If people don't enjoy it, why do they stay?

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41 minutes ago, RPG said:

No argument with your basic premise but when it comes to the subjects, particularly, of Trump and Brexit, some people have problems containing their prejudices and lines of decency can get crossed.

I could turn your argument right back on those very people regarding not leaving the community. We are citizens of a democratic community (Country). The democratic decision in UK is to have Johnson as PM (by a massive majority) and to leave EU, and the democratic decision in USA is to have Trump as President.

Noone has to stay in these communities (Countries) if they don't like those democratic decisions. If people don't enjoy it, why do they stay?

I think people are more concerned about how they got elected in a lot of cases. 

Also, that last sentence is bonkers. It's not so easy to just up and move to a different country because you don't like the one you're in. 

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39 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

I think people are more concerned about how they got elected in a lot of cases. 

Also, that last sentence is bonkers. It's not so easy to just up and move to a different country because you don't like the one you're in. 

If we don’t like them doesn’t mean we should runaway from them, those with some balls don’t runaway from decisions they don’t agree with they stay, stand up and fight them.

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1 hour ago, Sibdane said:

I think people are more concerned about how they got elected in a lot of cases. 

Also, that last sentence is bonkers. It's not so easy to just up and move to a different country because you don't like the one you're in. 

Some have done it.

Looking at the levels of faux hand wringing from some, it would maybe seem that they should leave, no matter how 'difficult' it is to do so.

And your first sentence is bonkers. You can't complain about the rules after you have lost.

 

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45 minutes ago, Palfy said:

If we don’t like them doesn’t mean we should runaway from them, those with some balls don’t runaway from decisions they don’t agree with they stay, stand up and fight them.

Agreed. But the conduct of the fight is bonkers and below the belt from some people. And, it hasn't worked for them, which just seems to wind them up even more.

In some cases it is an 'entitled generation' phenomena I think, and they will grow up eventually,  but UK is either a democracy or it is not and all democratic decisions should be respected - not just the one's you might agree with.

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3 hours ago, RPG said:

No argument with your basic premise but when it comes to the subjects, particularly, of Trump and Brexit, some people have problems containing their prejudices and lines of decency can get crossed.

I could turn your argument right back on those very people regarding not leaving the community. We are citizens of a democratic community (Country). The democratic decision in UK is to have Johnson as PM (by a massive majority) and to leave EU, and the democratic decision in USA is to have Trump as President.

Noone has to stay in these communities (Countries) if they don't like those democratic decisions. If people don't enjoy it, why do they stay?

You may have the means to get up and leave. If I don’t like how things are in the UK I can’t go anywhere. I have a family and friends here that I couldn’t leave.

Id love to move abroad but it’s not financially, or strategically, possible for myself and my wife to do that.

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

Some have done it.

Looking at the levels of faux hand wringing from some, it would maybe seem that they should leave, no matter how 'difficult' it is to do so.

And your first sentence is bonkers. You can't complain about the rules after you have lost.

 

Yes... I can. Free speech and all that. I also believe there was interferance in our election of Trump, but keep taking the government at face value. 

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

Agreed. But the conduct of the fight is bonkers and below the belt from some people. And, it hasn't worked for them, which just seems to wind them up even more.

In some cases it is an 'entitled generation' phenomena I think, and they will grow up eventually,  but UK is either a democracy or it is not and all democratic decisions should be respected - not just the one's you might agree with.

Democracy is not a perfect system. Someone who blindly follows the government just because it is labeled a certain way really doesn't understand the inherent nature of mankind.

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31 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Democracy is not a perfect system. Someone who blindly follows the government just because it is labeled a certain way really doesn't understand the inherent nature of mankind.

I like Churchill's quote on democracy.

'Democracy is a terrible way to run a country - until you consider the alternatives!'

Anyone who doesn't understand this and can't accept democracy (including its failings) doesn't understand the value of freedom or the price that others have paid so that he might enjoy it.

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36 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Yes... I can. Free speech and all that. I also believe there was interferance in our election of Trump, but keep taking the government at face value. 

Ok, let me expand. You can't legitimately complain about the rules after you have lost.

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1 hour ago, StevO said:

You may have the means to get up and leave. If I don’t like how things are in the UK I can’t go anywhere. I have a family and friends here that I couldn’t leave.

Id love to move abroad but it’s not financially, or strategically, possible for myself and my wife to do that.

Yes, I understand that Steve and my comments were not directed at you or the vast majority of other reasonable people.

I have been an expat for almost a quarter of a century now and, have made an effort to stay on top of UK current affairs etc. I have to say that until GE19 I was very concerned at the direction UK was headed. I can understand the argument that says 'well you live outside UK so how are you qualified to speak about UK?' but that argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Quite the opposite in fact.

As a regular but infrequent visitor back to UK I have seen the effects of its decline more starkly than people who live there permanently and who, through no fault of their own, are maybe suffering from 'boiling frog' syndrome or not noticing the death by a thousand small cuts until it would be too late. I believe Brexit offers the opportunity to reverse that trend, to reinvigorate our industries, our public transport, welfare system, NHS and to level the playing field.

There is a massive left wing inertia against this I know, probably even more so in Liverpool (and consequently, on this board) but I really do believe that our future is looking better now than it ever would have done as a vassel state in a United States of Europe. Changing opinion in these areas is like getting a fully laden oil tanker to change direction - not easy, but keep the rudder in long enough and it does happen.

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

I like Churchill's quote on democracy.

'Democracy is a terrible way to run a country - until you consider the alternatives!'

Anyone who doesn't understand this and can't accept democracy (including its failings) doesn't understand the value of freedom or the price that others have paid so that he might enjoy it.

 

59 minutes ago, RPG said:

Ok, let me expand. You can't legitimately complain about the rules after you have lost.

You're so wrong. I'm a white male. I completely understand what it means to live freely. Let me add that I come from a military family... those who have lost loves defending MY country. 

And yes, any "complaining" that I do is legitimate. Otherwise, your view of democracy is twisted. 

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Churchill’s quote still rings true today democracy is a process, democracy doesn’t mean every decision voted on has to be upheld in the minds and actions of everyone. 
We, well not all of us live in a country where we have freedom of speech were the minority has a right to challenge the majority, were we are allowed to challenge the people we put in positions of power. 
Not to be able to do theses things is not a democratic society or a democracy, it would be an authoritarian state, and what Churchill refers to in his speech, is the sacrifices people have given for us to enjoy freedom, against the alternative of at the time the Nazi state. 
He was definitely not advocating that you have to accept every decision voted on and won that you don’t agree with, more to the contrary he was saying you have the freedom to argue against decisions you don’t agree with. 
You could go to these Middle East countries and have no freedom of speech and be a shadow of your former self, that’s entirely your choice. 
But would Churchill be happy that British national’s were in someways helping to legitimise and prop up regimes that have some of the worse human rights in the world, that offer you no freedom of speech, that offer you no say in how or who leads the country, that’s no way to respect or remember the people who Churchill was referring to, the ones who gave up there lives for world freedom in a world war, many people on here show them respect by using there freedom of speech, and I for one thank them for that because that is what they gave there lives up for freedom. 

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15 hours ago, TallPaul1878 said:

I find talking to progressives really difficult. I get the impression that they act in bad faith, the constant demand for examples etc just has you chasing your tail rather than them trying to take on board and understand your thoughts and feelings.

Its very hard to engage with someone when they give sweeping generalisations that can be unpicked very easily, you can't have a proper discussion until you get to a substantive argument and taking the extreme examples of the left (or right) and then projecting that onto the whole group as the basis of your argument is actually acting in bad faith and a strawman.

The fact of the matter is that it's been demonstrated that peoples politics are not even based on reason, Hume first posited this in his Treatise on Human Nature in the 18th century and all the evidence since has confirmed that people rely on intuition first based on which of the six moral foundations they favour (via genes and then adaptaion by experience)  and then reason in a post hoc fashion to justify their intuition like a politicians press secretary.

Left leaning people make the common mistaken accusation that conservatives don't care about other people or are racist because they are concerned about levels of immigration but the research shows they just value other moral foundations such as in loyalty and authority equally/more.  

These are mine (green) hard to for me to argue that I am a balanced so I have committed in the Brexit/Trump era to try and understand conservatives positions more, but to do that you lot also need to understand us more and have arguments that appeal to our sentiments as well as your own.

image.png.be7a1af1b8c7f08eb8c72529f4de2ebd.png

 

 

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15 hours ago, Sibdane said:

 

You're so wrong. I'm a white male. I completely understand what it means to live freely. Let me add that I come from a military family... those who have lost loves defending MY country. 

And yes, any "complaining" that I do is legitimate. Otherwise, your view of democracy is twisted. 

I think not.

Your complaining is akin to losing the Superbowl to a vastly superior team and then complaining about the rules of American Football. If you choose to play the game you are honour bound to play by the rules. It is very bad form to complain about the rules after you have played the game and been soundly beaten.

I am not going to get involved in a contest with you over military backgrounds other than to say I am a former military pilot and have a strong military background in my family. I believe this has led me to respect my freedoms in a more appreciative way than some others.

I also play by the rules and accept democratic outcomes no matter which side of the result I am on. Democracy relies on loser's consent. Without it there is no democracy and that would be bad for everyone - including those that refused to accept it.

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15 hours ago, Sibdane said:

Funny thing is I respect Churchill to an extent, but you're quoting someone who was alive, what, 50ish years ago? How much has changed since then? @RPG

Much has changed - and not all of it for the better. The passing of time and the decline of standards across society might even promote the argument that his quotes are even more relevant today than they were when he was alive.

Just because an opinion is new doesn't mean it is valid, correct or relevant. I hear some absolute drivel from some current commentators. The latest is that WW2 history should not be taught in schools as it might be too traumatising for the millenials. What a load of rubbish.

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

I think not.

Your complaining is akin to losing the Superbowl to a vastly superior team and then complaining about the rules of American Football. If you choose to play the game you are honour bound to play by the rules. It is very bad form to complain about the rules after you have played the game and been soundly beaten.

I am not going to get involved in a contest with you over military backgrounds other than to say I am a former military pilot and have a strong military background in my family. I believe this has led me to respect my freedoms in a more appreciative way than some others.

I also play by the rules and accept democratic outcomes no matter which side of the result I am on. Democracy relies on loser's consent. Without it there is no democracy and that would be bad for everyone - including those that refused to accept it.

Another terrible analogy from you, because you assume that just because the rules are in place then they are followed at all times.  

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4 hours ago, Sibdane said:

Another terrible analogy from you, because you assume that just because the rules are in place then they are followed at all times.  

What I am saying is that if you are going to play the game you play by the rules. You come across as thinking you can make the rules up to suit your own agenda as you go along - even after the event. If you really believe you can do that then there is no point in discussing further with you. Or are you advocating cheating as an acceptable mode of behaviour?

It's called being responsible and accepting the democratic outcome when you lose as well as when you win. If you are unwilling and/or unable to do that then you have no structure or consistency to any position as you will blow with the wind to try to suit your own narrative and it then becomes pointless debating with you.

The analogy is good.

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17 minutes ago, RPG said:

What I am saying is that if you are going to play the game you play by the rules. You come across as thinking you can make the rules up to suit your own agenda as you go along - even after the event. If you really believe you can do that then there is no point in discussing further with you. Or are you advocating cheating as an acceptable mode of behaviour?

It's called being responsible and accepting the democratic outcome when you lose as well as when you win. If you are unwilling and/or unable to do that then you have no structure or consistency to any position as you will blow with the wind to try to suit your own narrative and it then becomes pointless debating with you.

The analogy is good.

No, of course I don't advocate cheating, but according to your responses you pretend it's not possible. 

Your analogy is garbage. 

Edit: you're a politicians' dream. 

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3 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

No, of course I don't advocate cheating, but according to your responses you pretend it's not possible. 

Your analogy is garbage. 

Then you agree that if you play the game that you play by the rules. Any fouls committed during the game are penalised during the game. That means that you should accept the result.

The analogy is good.

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6 minutes ago, RPG said:

Then you agree that if you play the game that you play by the rules. Any fouls committed during the game are penalised during the game. That means that you should accept the result.

The analogy is good.

Are you really that naive and can't understand what I'm saying? As a supporter of soccer (football) then surely you understand that the system isn't perfect.

Football is small scale in comparison, but there are many wrong decisions made. This then applies to larger scale issues. 

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5 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Are you really that naive and can't understand what I'm saying? As a supporter of soccer (football) then surely you understand that the system isn't perfect.

Football is small scale in comparison, but there are many wrong decisions made. 

I am not naive at all. Of course no system is perfect but it has to be applied universally and consistently despite any failings. That is why I caveated my comments on democracy with 'despite its failings.' Otherwise we leave ourselves open to nothing ever being achieved as there will always be an active minority group  claiming a foul somewhere or other. They may be right in a small isolated instance but not to the extent that it would alter the outcome. That is why we are honour bound to accept the democratic results given by the electorate - even if we don't like them.

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4 minutes ago, RPG said:

I am not naive at all. Of course no system is perfect but it has to be applied universally and consistently despite any failings. That is why I caveated my comments on democracy with 'despite its failings.' Otherwise we leave ourselves open to nothing ever being achieved as there will always be an active minority group  claiming a foul somewhere or other. They may be right in a small isolated instance but not to the extent that it would alter the outcome. That is why we are honour bound to accept the democratic results given by the electorate - even if we don't like them.

Like I said, you're a politicians' dream. 

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I like how conservatives keep on claiming that there is "left wing" inertia against Brexit when it's probably one of the most left wing things to happen to the UK in modern history.

The Tory party has now moved so far to the left on economic policy that one wonders if there will be any space for a new post-Corbyn Labour party to occupy once it recovers, the European Union is the biggest experiment in free market capitalism since Adam Smith.

A vote for Brexit was not a vote for capitalism it was a vote for protectionism, not a vote for conservatism but a vote for National Populism.

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5 hours ago, Chach said:

I like how conservatives keep on claiming that there is "left wing" inertia against Brexit when it's probably one of the most left wing things to happen to the UK in modern history.

The Tory party has now moved so far to the left on economic policy that one wonders if there will be any space for a new post-Corbyn Labour party to occupy once it recovers, the European Union is the biggest experiment in free market capitalism since Adam Smith.

A vote for Brexit was not a vote for capitalism it was a vote for protectionism, not a vote for conservatism but a vote for National Populism.

If the EU had restricted itself to the free market (we only joined a Common Market, remember) then I would probably agree with you.

But being led by the nose, one inch (sorry, cm) at a time through a process of creeping Federalism and loss of Sovereignty towards a United States of Europe is where EU has shot itself in the foot with UK.

A vote for brexit was quite simply a vote for Patriotism and Retention of Sovereignty. We want our country back. We are very happy, indeed, keen, to maintain cordial relations with all the countries of Europe. We just want to do it as an independent Sovereign country. There is nothing Nationalistic in that whatsoever.

The biggest protectionist racket in the world is the EU itself.

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12 minutes ago, RPG said:

If the EU had restricted itself to the free market (we only joined a Common Market, remember) then I would probably agree with you.

But being led by the nose, one inch (sorry, cm) at a time through a process of creeping Federalism and loss of Sovereignty towards a United States of Europe is where EU has shot itself in the foot with UK.

A vote for brexit was quite simply a vote for Patriotism and Retention of Sovereignty. We want our country back. We are very happy, indeed, keen, to maintain cordial relations with all the countries of Europe. We just want to do it as an independent Sovereign country. There is nothing Nationalistic in that whatsoever.

The biggest protectionist racket in the world is the EU itself.

Economic integration requires political integration.  You can't have common rules, if there is no political platform to discuss what those rules should be.   Increased cooperation (= federalism) is therefor a natural process.  

All countries in the EU are sovereign; being an EU member increases their sovereingty as it allows them to project power beyond what they would achieve alone.  

The EU, aside from being the biggest single market in itself, has, by far, the most free trade deals in the world of any economic entity.  Your statement it is the most protectionist is one of the more meaningless you have made on here.

 

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2 hours ago, holystove said:

Economic integration requires political integration.  You can't have common rules, if there is no political platform to discuss what those rules should be.   Increased cooperation (= federalism) is therefor a natural process.  

All countries in the EU are sovereign; being an EU member increases their sovereingty as it allows them to project power beyond what they would achieve alone.  

The EU, aside from being the biggest single market in itself, has, by far, the most free trade deals in the world of any economic entity.  Your statement it is the most protectionist is one of the more meaningless you have made on here.

 

First, we did not sign up for political integration. It was sold to us solely as a Common Market with no loss of Sovereignty. That was a lie and is now being put right by brexit. To now say that we can't have one without the other is to just admit the lie.

How you can even suggest that we have more Sovereignty within EU is astounding. Even Vehofstadt himself is on you tube having a Hitleresque tantrum complaining that the problem with EU is that countries are refusing to surrender their sovereignty.

https://youtu.be/r3XZJ4znl00

Second, the EU is most definitely a huge protectionist racket. It dictates who we can and can't trade with outside of EU whilst applying protectionist measures to those within EU.

I stand by every word - alongside at least 17.4 million others.

And, it is all academic now anyway as we will be out of EU in a couple of weeks - thank God.

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3 minutes ago, StevO said:

If you could suck yourself off, would you?

Wrong thread? 🤔

Is that really the best you can come up with? Really?

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5 hours ago, RPG said:

And, it is all academic now anyway as we will be out of EU in a couple of weeks - thank God.

What’s with the royal we you weren’t in it anyway, getting above your station again.

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48 minutes ago, Palfy said:

😂😂😂😂😂 that takes the biscuit 🍪 you win

Thanks Palfy. I knew you would see sense eventually!

Both assertions are accurate. Do you not trust the electorate? Only your opinion worth listening to is it?

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34 minutes ago, Palfy said:

What’s with the royal we you weren’t in it anyway, getting above your station again.

You do spout some tosh Palfy. My British passport and 17.4 million plus other people says otherwise. I am just as British as you (I assume you are British) and am not going over old ground with you again on this matter.

Have another Rijoca pal.

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51 minutes ago, Palfy said:

🤣🤣🤣🤣 brilliant. 
If he could it would be far better than anyone else. 

You would only be jealous pal. But do try not to drag down the decorum levels any further. Very low class and smacks of sore loser syndrome. There's a good chap.

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16 minutes ago, RPG said:

You do spout some tosh Palfy. My British passport and 17.4 million plus other people says otherwise. I am just as British as you (I assume you are British) and am not going over old ground with you again on this matter.

Have another Rijoca pal.

When it comes down to the facts of the matter, you’re just a spectator in British politics your not a contributor, you don’t have a vote or say on the future direction of the country, so again what’s with the we business. 

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