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Trump in charge (ex race for the US presidency thread)

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7 hours ago, Chach said:

1) The idea of socialism exists and its not an election winner in any western democracy, this is demonstrably true, its a demonstrable failure and I'm not sure how many times we have to run the experiment before we realise that it doesn't correlate with human nature.

2) Identifying as left wing doesn't mean you have to have all left wing positions if you understand that human culture is diverse. If people who identify as progressive haven't been made a little bit more conservative by Trump, Brexit, what's going on in Eastern Europe, Brazil. Turkey etc then I would argue they're not really progressive. They're just the other end of the reactionary spectrum.

 

1) it’ll never happen because

2) Human nature. 

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"But now we have that gorgeous word. I never thought a word would sound so good - it's called, 'total acquittal'."

Two words when I was at school Donald, 1+1=? Use a calculator if you need to.

Can he actually tie his own shoelaces or does he have someone to do it for him?

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57 minutes ago, MikeO said:

"But now we have that gorgeous word. I never thought a word would sound so good - it's called, 'total acquittal'."

Two words when I was at school Donald, 1+1=? Use a calculator if you need to.

Can he actually tie his own shoelaces or does he have someone to do it for him?

Putin does it for him. 

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16 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

He lies and changes opinions hourly, his thoughts on the matter mean nothing.

Not really an argument, regardless of what you think of the author there a lot of good points and references confirming the same thing.

I really don't like Ben Shapiro but it's hard to argue with any part of this article, all the right wingers are clucking for Bernie to be the nom.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/02/05/why_the_democrats_wont_stop_bernie_142316.html

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5 hours ago, Chach said:

Not really an argument, regardless of what you think of the author there a lot of good points and references confirming the same thing.

I really don't like Ben Shapiro but it's hard to argue with any part of this article, all the right wingers are clucking for Bernie to be the nom.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/02/05/why_the_democrats_wont_stop_bernie_142316.html

of course they are, they all believe bernie is "pinko commie scum" thinking it's still 1970 and Vietnam war is still happening.  they got brainwashed back then in regards to socialism (well done us educational system) and still hold to those beliefs.  notice the future of my country 30 and younger bernie cleans up.  the only moderate potentially able to go head to head with trump in my opinion is bloomberg but he's so late and not getting votes in the primaries so i think he's a lost cause.  butigeeg tied bernie in iowa but he is awful with voters that aren't white, so he has no chance as democrats are a very diverse group.

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16 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

of course they are, they all believe bernie is "pinko commie scum" thinking it's still 1970 and Vietnam war is still happening.  they got brainwashed back then in regards to socialism (well done us educational system) and still hold to those beliefs.  notice the future of my country 30 and younger bernie cleans up.  the only moderate potentially able to go head to head with trump in my opinion is bloomberg but he's so late and not getting votes in the primaries so i think he's a lost cause.  butigeeg tied bernie in iowa but he is awful with voters that aren't white, so he has no chance as democrats are a very diverse group.

Are you using the term socialism interchangeably with social redistribution or do you really think the government you would prefer should do things like Bernie has suggested in the past like nationalise banks and industry and have a centrally planned economy?

 

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

 

In my state it doesn't really matter who I vote for since it always votes conservative (MS); however, I'm more than certain I'll be writing in Yang. He's my favorite candidate by far. 

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Yang is out, I am super surprised at how well Buttigieg is doing.

 

With 59% of New Hampshire precincts, Bernie Sanders leads Pete Buttigieg by 2.1 points. The Vermont senator is at 26%, and the former Indiana mayor is at 23.9%.

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no surprise at all, new hampshire is a very moderate state as a whole, they trend republican usually.  even their democrats are more centrist than left.  prime buttigieg territory.  where he is going to have trouble are the big states like california and new york and so forth, these little ones don't amount to much in the end, they just get the ball rolling with the primaries.

 

big story of the night is klobuchar (another moderate) doing so well and biden in 5th.  I think next is south carolina and if he doesn't do well there i could see him dropping out.  i wouldn't be surprised if warren drops soon too, she's not doing very well, she needs to get to massachusetts or something to get a win, not sure if she will last that long.

 

yang never had a chance.  seemed like a nice guy, maybe he should try getting into politics at the house or senate level and get some experience there.

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On 10/02/2020 at 17:21, MikeO said:

How would the public respond if they were to blow up Arlington National Cemetery? Why is a Native American cemetery any less sacred? The answers that would be given by this administration, for sure, are (i) how dare anyone even suggest desecrating Arlington National Cemetery or burning a flag! (ii) But these are defeated non-white heathens, so what's the problem? The fact that the Apache nation was not even notified speaks volumes.

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8 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

no surprise at all, new hampshire is a very moderate state as a whole, they trend republican usually.  even their democrats are more centrist than left.  prime buttigieg territory.  where he is going to have trouble are the big states like california and new york and so forth, these little ones don't amount to much in the end, they just get the ball rolling with the primaries.

Do you think anyone other than a centrist has a chance of winning in November?

I would have thought someone moderate Republicans would vote for would be a key prerequisite for the nomination.

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On 18/01/2020 at 13:40, Chach said:

For some reason that seems like a bridge too far. The best candidate is a married gay man.

 

 

 

Philip Schofield? 😂

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41 minutes ago, Chach said:

Do you think anyone other than a centrist has a chance of winning in November?

I would have thought someone moderate Republicans would vote for would be a key prerequisite for the nomination.

trump didn't win by getting moderate republicans, trump won by winning over disenfranchised democrats.  all the left has to do is get back those democrats.  it doesn't have anything to do with centrist.  it has to do with working class people and independents.  of which bernie's policies benefit the most the workign class.

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To be honest, it’s a pointless discussion. Somehow he’ll get a second term. He’s just blown up a graveyard, he’s been acquitted because witnesses and testimonies were actively refused. He is above the law and laughs at it. Sanders is the best worst choice for a candidate because he’s a swing in the opposite direction, and good on him. But people have already shown how they react to swings in opinion and approaches; Sanders would just make a CW2 more likely. 

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1 hour ago, Sibdane said:

I think Trump will win again and while I think Bernie will appeal to most democrats he will miss out on voters more center.

who will they vote for, Trump?  no way a center left democrat is voting for trump.  Green party?  too liberal.  so who do they vote for?

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40 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

who will they vote for, Trump?  no way a center left democrat is voting for trump.  Green party?  too liberal.  so who do they vote for?

A lot of the same ones who voted for him last time. I wasn't just talking about left center.

Trump has a lot of things going in his favor right now whether you attribute them to his policies or not. A strong economy and low unemployment are two just for starters.

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12 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

trump didn't win by getting moderate republicans, trump won by winning over disenfranchised democrats.  all the left has to do is get back those democrats.  it doesn't have anything to do with centrist.  it has to do with working class people and independents.  of which bernie's policies benefit the most the workign class.

Its not about the economy, its cultural, same as Brexit it's not contained to the US it's a global response to too much globalism/capitalism.

Bernie is a good man and as someone not affected by US domestic policy I would ecstatic if he could get up, his voting record demonstrates he is someone who would rather be effective than right and that is a very good quality in a politician. But they will align him with the Squad and Socialism and make him defend all sorts of marginal cultural issues*

*very much hope I am wrong on this.

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11 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

What is wrong with the squad?  What have they done that is bad?  

Ask people on the other side. Everything they have done is bad in the eyes of Republicans. Trump's supporters are following him now more than ever. 

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35 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Ask people on the other side. Everything they have done is bad in the eyes of Republicans. Trump's supporters are following him now more than ever. 

that's my point, it's just a media campaign against the "leftist squad".  in reality and in fact they have done nothing bad or wrong.  

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2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

that's my point, it's just a media campaign against the "leftist squad".  in reality and in fact they have done nothing bad or wrong.  

And that’s the reason why he’ll win again. Kinetic energy. 

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1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

sadly i don't disagree.  lies and falsehoods win the day sadly.

The pendulum is swinging. I was hoping it was slowing down but it’s magnetic poles countering each other at the moment, and the people being focused on an extreme / a team, rather than reason and actual debate 

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6 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

that's my point, it's just a media campaign against the "leftist squad".  in reality and in fact they have done nothing bad or wrong.  

The rich control the media and they don’t want to share their wealth with the working classes, yet through media propaganda in the UK they basically brainwashed the working classes to shoot themselves in the foot over Brexit and the General election, the same is happening in the State’s with Trump the people who he has probably nothing in common with and will do nothing for are being targeted by the media moguls who have plenty of things in common with Trump to vote for him, the brainwashing has begun. 

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10 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

that's my point, it's just a media campaign against the "leftist squad".  in reality and in fact they have done nothing bad or wrong.  

 

7 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

sadly i don't disagree.  lies and falsehoods win the day sadly.

Here's a falsehood for you, this is during a campaign to find a candidate to replace an authoritarian who has captured your government.

There are scores of examples of this kind of divisiveness and identity politics BS, particularly from this member.

 

image.png

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4 hours ago, Palfy said:

The rich control the media and they don’t want to share their wealth with the working classes, yet through media propaganda in the UK they basically brainwashed the working classes to shoot themselves in the foot over Brexit and the General election, the same is happening in the State’s with Trump the people who he has probably nothing in common with and will do nothing for are being targeted by the media moguls who have plenty of things in common with Trump to vote for him, the brainwashing has begun. 

Please for the  love of god give people some agency,  this narrative on the left that "we are right and everyone else is wrong and no one can see it because they are all brainwashed by the media" is pure fantasy.

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

 

Here's a falsehood for you, this is during a campaign to find a candidate to replace an authoritarian who has captured your government.

There are scores of examples of this kind of divisiveness and identity politics BS, particularly from this member.

 

image.png

I’m confused she tweeted a news article, please explain.  What has AOC or pressly or Omar done wrong?  Furthermore, do you believe politicians Should be infallible, or are they fallible like the rest of us humans?

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3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

I’m confused she tweeted a news article, please explain.  What has AOC or pressly or Omar done wrong?  Furthermore, do you believe politicians Should be infallible, or are they fallible like the rest of us humans?

She tweeted an ancient article about a candidate from her own party in an attempt to smear him. His campaign pays 100% of comprehensive health insurance and it even stated in the old article she posted that he was currently paying a cash stipend in lieu. 

Nice deflection though, it's only Trump supporters who are blind to immoral and unethical behaviour though right.

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4 hours ago, Chach said:

Please for the  love of god give people some agency,  this narrative on the left that "we are right and everyone else is wrong and no one can see it because they are all brainwashed by the media" is pure fantasy.

Not everyone I’m not you definitely could be, politics in the media has become a form of advertising and advertising works by attacking subconsciously a person’s mind, if it didn’t why would billions upon billions be spent on it around the world every year, the media helps people like Trump sell their brand of politics because it suits the moguls who own the companies like your Murdock's. 
But not by discussing the politics or policies of either side of the divide but by attacking the personalities they don’t want in power, in the States Hilary Clinton was a good case in point, through the medium of media she was attacked by false claims even the Russians were involved and people believed it. 
Now Bernie Sanders is being attacked by the media in the same way by trying to discredit him as a person, and if you believe it will have no bearing on events you are highly mistaken, or dare I say completely brainwashed by the media. 

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18 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Not everyone I’m not you definitely could be, politics in the media has become a form of advertising and advertising works by attacking subconsciously a person’s mind, if it didn’t why would billions upon billions be spent on it around the world every year, the media helps people like Trump sell their brand of politics because it suits the moguls who own the companies like your Murdock's. 
But not by discussing the politics or policies of either side of the divide but by attacking the personalities they don’t want in power, in the States Hilary Clinton was a good case in point, through the medium of media she was attacked by false claims even the Russians were involved and people believed it. 
Now Bernie Sanders is being attacked by the media in the same way by trying to discredit him as a person, and if you believe it will have no bearing on events you are highly mistaken, or dare I say completely brainwashed by the media. 

Did you miss the part where I said give people some agency?

Both sides engage in playing the man instead of the ball and its mostly the politicians who do that, not the media.

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

Did you miss the part where I said give people some agency?

Both sides engage in playing the man instead of the ball and its mostly the politicians who do that, not the media.

But people’s opinions are in the most influenced by what they hear and read in the media, you yourself have posted articles that you think are relevant to your beliefs and political persuasions, without doing any research to see if it’s true or fake, so don’t try and tell me that the media have no influence on the people they preach to, because that would be totally naive.

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5 hours ago, Chach said:

She tweeted an ancient article about a candidate from her own party in an attempt to smear him. His campaign pays 100% of comprehensive health insurance and it even stated in the old article she posted that he was currently paying a cash stipend in lieu. 

Nice deflection though, it's only Trump supporters who are blind to immoral and unethical behaviour though right.

I don’t do twitter so I’m not sure if she retracted it, apologized later, I really don’t care.  One tweet doesn’t make a person a bad person.  It’s the whole record.  I don’t believe any politicians are perfect.  Hilary was a deeply flawed candidate who I did not vote for.  I was for Bernie.  Bernie is not perfect either, but unlike all the candidates from this year or last he has been saying the same thing and holding the same position on 99% of issues for over 3 decades of politics.  Right or wrong he is consistent, which is not common among politicians.  Also he has been an independent senator, not a democrat or republican.  
 

I don’t know why you feel you need to constantly come on here and lecture us all As to why the far right and far left are wrong and your moderate and centrists beliefs are correct.  

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7 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

I don’t do twitter so I’m not sure if she retracted it, apologized later, I really don’t care.  One tweet doesn’t make a person a bad person.  It’s the whole record.  I don’t believe any politicians are perfect.  Hilary was a deeply flawed candidate who I did not vote for.  I was for Bernie.  Bernie is not perfect either, but unlike all the candidates from this year or last he has been saying the same thing and holding the same position on 99% of issues for over 3 decades of politics.  Right or wrong he is consistent, which is not common among politicians.  Also he has been an independent senator, not a democrat or republican.  
 

I don’t know why you feel you need to constantly come on here and lecture us all As to why the far right and far left are wrong and your moderate and centrists beliefs are correct.  

He’s been brainwashed 😂

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20 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

I don’t know why you feel you need to constantly come on here and lecture us all As to why the far right and far left are wrong and your moderate and centrists beliefs are correct.  

As far as I "lecture you" it's just pointing out  that your subjective reality is not necessarily an accurate world view and that you should open your mind to actually engaging with ideas your stomach finds uncomfortable.

What you should be worried about is that you don't care if ideologues who share your world view smear political candidates in their own party. That's about as illiberal and anti intellectual as you can get.

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Palfy said:

But people’s opinions are in the most influenced by what they hear and read in the media, you yourself have posted articles that you think are relevant to your beliefs and political persuasions, without doing any research to see if it’s true or fake, so don’t try and tell me that the media have no influence on the people they preach to, because that would be totally naive.

Haha I have never done that, I am careful about what I share and I generally form my opinions from books I have read/ public intellectuals I have listened to and things I have observed in my life. 

I'm only interested in the truth and what is good for humanity and currently as this thread goes that is the replacement of Donald Trump with an adult who can provide some leadership in what is likely one of the most challenging periods modern humans have faced, so actually living through the election and their first term and being able to win a second term is a priority.

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

As far as I "lecture you" it's just pointing out  that your subjective reality is not necessarily an accurate world view and that you should open your mind to actually engaging with ideas your stomach finds uncomfortable.

What you should be worried about is that you don't care if ideologues who share your world view smear political candidates in their own party. That's about as illiberal and anti intellectual as you can get.

 

 

 

Yeah the holier than thou bit.  No thanks I’d rather have a conversation or debate with someone who isn’t talking down to me all the time thinking they are better.  I don’t care about your political affiliation.

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

Haha I have never done that, I am careful about what I share and I generally form my opinions from books I have read/ public intellectuals I have listened to and things I have observed in my life. 

I'm only interested in the truth and what is good for humanity and currently as this thread goes that is the replacement of Donald Trump with an adult who can provide some leadership in what is likely one of the most challenging periods modern humans have faced, so actually living through the election and their first term and being able to win a second term is a priority.

Well try and be more careful about what you share in the future, because you’re I’m better read and more of an intellectual than most doesn’t resonate with many on here, you’re opinion is just that you’re opinion.  

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3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Well try and be more careful about what you share in the future, because you’re I’m better read and more of an intellectual than most doesn’t resonate with many on here, you’re opinion is just that you’re opinion.  

I think it is more a case of being able and willing to separate agenda from objectivity. Nothing to do with intelligence. Many on here seem to start with their desired answer and then to try to work backwards from there. A far more honest and objective way to proceed would be to look at the available info and go forwards from there - wherever it may lead.

 

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10 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Yeah the holier than thou bit.  No thanks I’d rather have a conversation or debate with someone who isn’t talking down to me all the time thinking they are better.  I don’t care about your political affiliation.

No Mark, you are not interesting in debating which is why you pretty much attempt to hound out anyone with a contrarian view to yours with ad hominem attacks on their style and equivocation on any argument they raise that challenges your position. If a conservative dares raise their head then the implications of stupidity, racism come out and the standard circle jerk ensues. With regards to the bolded, again that is entirely a figment of your imagination in response to being disagreed with, don't take it out on me.

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10 hours ago, Palfy said:

Well try and be more careful about what you share in the future, because you’re I’m better read and more of an intellectual than most doesn’t resonate with many on here, you’re opinion is just that you’re opinion.  

It's a political thread on an internet forum Palfy, I'm not going to moderate myself because some people can't handle a robust discussion.

PS I am not opinion :P

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On 15/02/2020 at 13:35, markjazzbassist said:

Yeah the holier than thou bit.  No thanks I’d rather have a conversation or debate with someone who isn’t talking down to me all the time thinking they are better.  I don’t care about your political affiliation.

Chach has always been a tricky one to work out, and I mean that with respect. I don’t often agree with him but can’t fault his debating skills for the most part, depends how sarcastic a tone I sense 

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@Cornish Steve all the debate recaps i read said that warren's ship is sinking so fast that she just went into attack mode all night.  she didn't have a point to it, she just attacked everyone.  basically lashing out as the door is closing on her campaign.  i didn't watch it FWIW, i'm a bernie guy.

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9 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

@Cornish Steve all the debate recaps i read said that warren's ship is sinking so fast that she just went into attack mode all night.  she didn't have a point to it, she just attacked everyone.  basically lashing out as the door is closing on her campaign.  i didn't watch it FWIW, i'm a bernie guy.

Trump is loving this. It was attacks on each other the whole night between all the candidates. Democrats are looking just as bad as Republicans last go around. 

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Just now, Sibdane said:

Trump is loving this. It was attacks on each other the whole night between all the candidates. Democrats are looking just as bad as Republicans last go around. 

playing devil's advocate, is there another way to do a debate?  how can they articulate their differences and highlight their strengths without it coming off as an attack? 

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4 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

playing devil's advocate, is there another way to do a debate?  how can they articulate their differences and highlight their strengths without it coming off as an attack? 

There will always be some sort of attacks but a lot of them got personal rather than focus on policy. 

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