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Paddock

Ronald Koeman

Next Manager  

106 members have voted

  1. 1. Who would you choose

    • Mourinho
      15
    • De Boer
      18
    • Koeman
      26
    • Low
      4
    • Pelligrini
      17
    • Hughes
      2
    • O'Neill
      0
    • Emery
      6
    • Moyes
      3
    • Somebody else
      13
    • Simeone
      2


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1 hour ago, Paddock said:

Not of his own accord anyway.  He isn't stupid - £9m in outstanding wages to be picked up.

He may as well say "I'm not quitting - pay me off"

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10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

If I had a quid for every time a manager has been backed 1 week only to be sacked the next I would probably still be broke... just a bit less broke!

Agree 

He could well have their backing but they won't tell him otherwise before a game especially one as big as tomorrow's 

The man will be on thin ice 

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6 hours ago, Paddock said:

He’s said he has the full backing of the board- nothing more nothing less. If they hadn’t of given him it he wouldn’t say it.

Reading the article (and others), he claims nothing was said but he deduced (from body language? who knows) that he has their full support. I'll believe it when I hear a representative of the board say so.

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6 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Reading the article (and others), he claims nothing was said but he deduced (from body language? who knows) that he has their full support. I'll believe it when I hear a representative of the board say so.

Moshiri has said it.

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

If Koeman got the Leicester job,  in his first match in charge he would play Vardy on the wing and Mahrez at full back.

funny yet has been said about every manager.  moyes and martinez did it as well.  SAF his holiness also did it.  i think its a dumb argument.  every manager plays players out of position.  

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9 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

funny yet has been said about every manager.  moyes and martinez did it as well.  SAF his holiness also did it.  i think its a dumb argument.  every manager plays players out of position.  

Moyes did it and it didn't work.

Martinez didn't really do it that often? 

SAF tended not to, he just had certain players that he used as utility players when he needed a job doing, generally a defensive job too. 

It's an important argument because the majority of players when played out of position or in the system don't play to their potential. When the 3 above did it, bar Moyes at times, it was generally done for a reason, nullifying a threat, or in the example of Martinez using Lukaku wide, to exploit a weakness. 

Koeman is just shoehorning players into a starting 11 and I can't see any tactical benefit of him doing so. 

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2 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Moyes did it and it didn't work.

Martinez didn't really do it that often? 

SAF tended not to, he just had certain players that he used as utility players when he needed a job doing, generally a defensive job too. 

It's an important argument because the majority of players when played out of position or in the system don't play to their potential. When the 3 above did it, bar Moyes at times, it was generally done for a reason, nullifying a threat, or in the example of Martinez using Lukaku wide, to exploit a weakness. 

Koeman is just shoehorning players into a starting 11 and I can't see any tactical benefit of him doing so. 

 

martinez - galloway CB at fullback.  baines at CM.  osman LW.  plenty of shithouse here too.  every manager shoehorns, its a mute argument if you ask me.

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2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

martinez - galloway CB at fullback.  baines at CM.  osman LW.  plenty of shithouse here too.  every manager shoehorns, its a mute argument if you ask me.

Galloway was left back cover due to his injuries. He also hasn't played anywhere else but LB as far as I know. He did well at LB too as cover.

Baines played in CM for less than a game, again as cover. He talked about doing it but only did if for a short time. And he set up a chance in that time, it didn't harm us.

Osman played on the left because he used that side to play as an inside left certainly not a winger. Same way Pienaar was used by Moyes. 

It does happen, it has to normally because of injuries and tactics but I have never seen so many players used in ways that negates their positives.

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Just now, Bailey said:

Galloway was left back cover due to his injuries. He also hasn't played anywhere else but LB as far as I know. He did well at LB too as cover.

Baines played in CM for less than a game, again as cover. He talked about doing it but only did if for a short time. And he set up a chance in that time, it didn't harm us.

Osman played on the left because he used that side to play as an inside left certainly not a winger. Same way Pienaar was used by Moyes. 

It does happen, it has to normally because of injuries and tactics but I have never seen so many players used in ways that negates their positives.

remember bob taking baines to see bayern, told him he was going to be the english lahm.  ah the memories :rofl:

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Currently fighting against a relegation spot. Practically out of our first appearance in Europa League in years with it becoming increasingly difficult to achieve it in the near future.

Surly that game was it wasn't It? What are we holding onto him now for? What's the incentive? What's the purpose of keeping him? I see very little.

There is only 1 reason I can see us keeping him and that's so the stand in manager doesn't have to face Arsenal as his next fixture. 

He's got to go. It's already too late.

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I’ve backed him as long as could- Atalanta was the final straw for me though. Based on the squad overhaul that looked in motion on the back of a big improvement in the league last season - I genuinely thought we were moving in the right direction... clearly not - Koeman out!

He even looks like Ian Beale when he went off the rails now and if that’s not enough reason then I don’t know what is!!!

 

 

50D40EEC-755F-49FD-A9C2-5C17A0A3A837.jpeg

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Like a student who thought he was gonna walk his exams... his arrogance seen him misbehaving in class - not doing his home work and now look at him..... frantically flicking through the text books on the bus into school.

Too late Ronald. 

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I'm not sure what else he can do to be honest. He's tried so many different line ups, to no avail. Has he got any ideas left? Not sure he has.

He must be lacking confidence just as much as his players. Problem is, will his decisions become more panicked by lack of confidence too?

When looking at the players we have, it's a bloody good squad, a good mix of potential and experience. But we don't have a team.

And again, we don't see a full game of full on team performance. Only in the 2nd half, which he again he refers to in his post match interview. Why only the 2nd half though?

It looks like we'll be out of the Europa and by next week we could very realistically be out of the League Cup.

It's going to get tougher before it gets easier for Koeman. He really does need to pull this shit together asap.

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Didn't want him, never rated him (though I thought I was been won over briefly) and said from the beginning "don't make mass changes". I hated how he treated players (favourites and discarded unceremoniously) and his arrogance, easily perceived as "confidence", has been his undoing.

I'm usually patient and optimistic but after preseason I had doubts. Too much influx and failing to make changes necessary...

his argument about not having enough time to train is valid, but if you're not doing that then you're not good enough for the job

i was never convinced by him, but I so desparetly wanted to be proven wrong. I've never been so disappointed in being so right. #koexit

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3 minutes ago, Matt said:

Didn't want him, never rated him (though I thought I was been won over briefly) and said from the beginning "don't make mass changes". I hated how he treated players (favourites and discarded unceremoniously) and his arrogance, easily perceived as "confidence", has been his undoing.

I'm usually patient and optimistic but after preseason I had doubts. Too much influx and failing to make changes necessary...

his argument about not having enough time to train is valid, but if you're not doing that then you're not good enough for the job

i was never convinced by him, but I so desparetly wanted to be proven wrong. I've never been so disappointed in being so right. #koexit

and I thought I was all alone

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He probably will be given until the end of the Chelsea game, but I think that’s totally pointless, he should go today, get someone else in or just use unsworth/dunk for the next couple of games to install a bit of ‘Everton ‘ into the lads, who knows we could do something against arsenal and Chelsea, we certainly won’t with him still in control 

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I said it in the match day thread - how poor the new signings are playing is really glaring. Martina, Keane, Klaasen, Sandro, then add Schneiderlin who arrived January. All just in horrible form. That suggests the environment they've found themselves in is all wrong, Koeman has clearly done something very wrong trying to integrate them. He has to go, this is on the board now. 

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For me, there's a reputation the club has to address.

I think to outsiders, the club has a nice, patient reputation with managers. You may be expected to finish 6th or 7th, but if you don't, it's ok, you'll get another chance.

Like Moyes. Like Martinez.

Does that take a bit of edge off the managers ambition? We all need that bit of pressure to perform at our best. I think it's human nature to relax a bit if that pressure isn't there.

Does the club need to send a message out that it's no longer good enough to settle for there sort of performances, results, early cup exits (that's a bit premature for this season...but a reasonable assumption)?

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9 hours ago, London Blue said:

Koeman at start of his tenure.

Image result for ronald koeman everton

Koeman vs Lyon

JS134058575.jpg

Need to add the Barcelona logo in the direction Koeman is looking at in the first one.

And add an executioner waiting in the bottom pic.

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1 hour ago, nogs said:

I said it in the match day thread - how poor the new signings are playing is really glaring. Martina, Keane, Klaasen, Sandro, then add Schneiderlin who arrived January. All just in horrible form. That suggests the environment they've found themselves in is all wrong, Koeman has clearly done something very wrong trying to integrate them. He has to go, this is on the board now. 

Yep, at least we saw some class from Schneiderlin last season and we know he can play a lot better. I'm not sure about others, but they were the big stars in their previous clubs (except Cuco), and I'm BUT OK with that they need to settle in, but they're showing nothing of what I'm sure they're capable of.  Really can't see what's going on. I could accept poor form from majority of the players, but there's only Vlasic of the new signings who showed some positives and the rest fail massively. I'm not really satisfied with Pickford's performances lately as well. Lopes was the better keeper last night by a mile.

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 To be honest the negativity is already so intense I guess failure is unavoidable but I certainly dont think sacking him is going to help matters.

The modern game is basically a bad case of going through managers like cheap socks. A few bad results and the fans pile on, the media follow, and before you know where you are, the players themselves have ousted the manager! Its bad for all concerned especially the club itself.

It never used to be like this as the manager of a football team used to be the boss unless he went full Brian Clough or something, but its happening all over these days as the players know they can easily get rid of any manager who so much as dares to criticize them or not give them their own way.

I dont like Mourinho but hes  a good manager (if tactically boring) and obviously got overthrown by the players at Chelsea, as did Moyes at Man U, and Claudio Ranieri at Leicester. Players not playing to the best of their ability, in order to spite or dispose of a manager, should be seen as tantamount to treason, but the players will continue to get away with this kind of behavior, if the fans continue to just passively accept it, and focus on scapegoating the manager as soon as things go wrong.  

I'm not saying that's happening here, but people should be a little more circumspect and stop with the Witch Hunts every god damned week. You'll enjoy the sport more too if you relax a little more. Personally as a lifelong Evertonian I'm so accustomed to misery I haven't even begun to worry yet, and  dont generally expect to win anyway haha!

You gotta give managers a chance to build a team, give new players time to settle down, and gel together which must be difficult when so many new players come in, and established players start getting pushed out. Its bound to create a massive disruption/resentment, and an uneasy atmosphere that probably affects performances especially for the new players. But to call for the managers head this early is crazy, and will just end up being, a self fulfilling prophecy.

His biggest mistake IMO was bringing Rooney back in. I've never had any resentment or ill feeling against Rooney for leaving, but anyone should have been able to see from his last few seasons at Man U that he's coming to the end of a great career and is basically conked out. I couldn't believe it when we re-signed him, and it was then that I seriously questioned Koemans judgement. I dont know how he couldn't have worked out exactly why Mourinho was selling him. That said many people who want Koeman out now, were made up to be getting Rooney back and its my guess that Rooney wont prove to have been a good signing.

I say give him Koeman at least year and if we get relegated you can burn me!

Still unlikely he will survive...

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36 minutes ago, wolf8312 said:

 To be honest the negativity is already so intense I guess failure is unavoidable but I certainly dont think sacking him is going to help matters.

The modern game is basically a bad case of going through managers like cheap socks. A few bad results and the fans pile on, the media follow, and before you know where you are, the players themselves have ousted the manager! Its bad for all concerned especially the club itself.

It never used to be like this as the manager of a football team used to be the boss unless he went full Brian Clough or something, but its happening all over these days as the players know they can easily get rid of any manager who so much as dares to criticize them or not give them their own way.

I dont like Mourinho but hes  a good manager (if tactically boring) and obviously got overthrown by the players at Chelsea, as did Moyes at Man U, and Claudio Ranieri at Leicester. Players not playing to the best of their ability, in order to spite or dispose of a manager, should be seen as tantamount to treason, but the players will continue to get away with this kind of behavior, if the fans continue to just passively accept it, and focus on scapegoating the manager as soon as things go wrong.  

I'm not saying that's happening here, but people should be a little more circumspect and stop with the Witch Hunts every god damned week. You'll enjoy the sport more too if you relax a little more. Personally as a lifelong Evertonian I'm so accustomed to misery I haven't even begun to worry yet, and  dont generally expect to win anyway haha!

You gotta give managers a chance to build a team, give new players time to settle down, and gel together which must be difficult when so many new players come in, and established players start getting pushed out. Its bound to create a massive disruption/resentment, and an uneasy atmosphere that probably affects performances especially for the new players. But to call for the managers head this early is crazy, and will just end up being, a self fulfilling prophecy.

His biggest mistake IMO was bringing Rooney back in. I've never had any resentment or ill feeling against Rooney for leaving, but anyone should have been able to see from his last few seasons at Man U that he's coming to the end of a great career and is basically conked out. I couldn't believe it when we re-signed him, and it was then that I seriously questioned Koemans judgement. I dont know how he couldn't have worked out exactly why Mourinho was selling him. That said many people who want Koeman out now, were made up to be getting Rooney back and its my guess that Rooney wont prove to have been a good signing.

I say give him Koeman at least year and if we get relegated you can burn me!

Still unlikely he will survive...

Couple of points to mention, Everton usually do give managers a good stint in the job, and almost never rush in to sack a manager. (I said usually because no idea how Moshiri will behave.)

You said give Koeman a year?  How many years should we give him as he has been in post for more than that already.

 

Finally if the tactics are wrong in every game, who would you blame?  it is not a "witch hunt" it is a reasonable doubt on the incumbent manager's ability to move the club in the right direction.

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2 hours ago, Haiku said:

Yep, at least we saw some class from Schneiderlin last season and we know he can play a lot better. I'm not sure about others, but they were the big stars in their previous clubs (except Cuco), and I'm BUT OK with that they need to settle in, but they're showing nothing of what I'm sure they're capable of.  Really can't see what's going on. I could accept poor form from majority of the players, but there's only Vlasic of the new signings who showed some positives and the rest fail massively. I'm not really satisfied with Pickford's performances lately as well. Lopes was the better keeper last night by a mile.

Pickford kept us in it, I remember at least two crucial saves when they were clear through. Him and Vlasic are the only two new signings worth a place in the side.

I know you jumped on me when I criticised Klaassen last night, but his selection has to go down as a massive error. In a game we had to win to keep any realistic hopes of staying in Europe alive, why play someone so badly out of form? And to then be hauled off at half time - it just shows Koeman knows he made a mistake.

We cannot afford to let these players play themselves back into form in the first team. Not when the likes of Mirallas and Lookman, who haven't been starting, looked two of our best players last night, albeit for a half each. We have to play players on form, which Koeman refuses to do. Keane, Schneiderlin, Klaassen, Sandro and Martina all need a spell in the U23s to find their heads, that's if they can get into a winning side.

 

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3 hours ago, wolf8312 said:

 To be honest the negativity is already so intense I guess failure is unavoidable but I certainly dont think sacking him is going to help matters.

The modern game is basically a bad case of going through managers like cheap socks. A few bad results and the fans pile on, the media follow, and before you know where you are, the players themselves have ousted the manager! Its bad for all concerned especially the club itself.

It never used to be like this as the manager of a football team used to be the boss unless he went full Brian Clough or something, but its happening all over these days as the players know they can easily get rid of any manager who so much as dares to criticize them or not give them their own way.

I dont like Mourinho but hes  a good manager (if tactically boring) and obviously got overthrown by the players at Chelsea, as did Moyes at Man U, and Claudio Ranieri at Leicester. Players not playing to the best of their ability, in order to spite or dispose of a manager, should be seen as tantamount to treason, but the players will continue to get away with this kind of behavior, if the fans continue to just passively accept it, and focus on scapegoating the manager as soon as things go wrong.  

I'm not saying that's happening here, but people should be a little more circumspect and stop with the Witch Hunts every god damned week. You'll enjoy the sport more too if you relax a little more. Personally as a lifelong Evertonian I'm so accustomed to misery I haven't even begun to worry yet, and  dont generally expect to win anyway haha!

You gotta give managers a chance to build a team, give new players time to settle down, and gel together which must be difficult when so many new players come in, and established players start getting pushed out. Its bound to create a massive disruption/resentment, and an uneasy atmosphere that probably affects performances especially for the new players. But to call for the managers head this early is crazy, and will just end up being, a self fulfilling prophecy.

His biggest mistake IMO was bringing Rooney back in. I've never had any resentment or ill feeling against Rooney for leaving, but anyone should have been able to see from his last few seasons at Man U that he's coming to the end of a great career and is basically conked out. I couldn't believe it when we re-signed him, and it was then that I seriously questioned Koemans judgement. I dont know how he couldn't have worked out exactly why Mourinho was selling him. That said many people who want Koeman out now, were made up to be getting Rooney back and its my guess that Rooney wont prove to have been a good signing.

I say give him Koeman at least year and if we get relegated you can burn me!

Still unlikely he will survive...

great post, please stick around

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13 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

people know he's on the ropes, they;re just trying to be the first to say he goes and are just guessing and hoping to be right.

we don't earn points for being right MJB.

My source was incorrect to the point that the timeline for unsworth taking over has already elapsed...

That's not to say that it won't happen.

 

Either way Koeman "MUST GO".....  his position is untenable.  No tactics, no passion, falls out with players, drops ones who are doing well and sticks to his favourites - money spent on players who are being shoehorned into roles they are not suited to. 

If Unsworth comes in we will see a marked uptick in performance - absolutely no doubt about it.

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, rubecula said:

Couple of points to mention, Everton usually do give managers a good stint in the job, and almost never rush in to sack a manager. (I said usually because no idea how Moshiri will behave.)

You said give Koeman a year?  How many years should we give him as he has been in post for more than that already.

 

Finally if the tactics are wrong in every game, who would you blame?  it is not a "witch hunt" it is a reasonable doubt on the incumbent manager's ability to move the club in the right direction.

Well nobody knows the future so I am willing to accept I may be wrong, I mean like I said we could end up getting relegated!

Yeah sure tactics are important but I seriously believe so is a positive and supporting atmosphere. If you boo your own team at half time for example, all you really end up doing is making your own team nervous, and actually fearful of their own crowd which becomes counter productive!

Imagine trying to do a job like that, waking up everyday to read how you're a dead man walking with planes literally flying past your head reading 'you suck' ! It would contaminate everything from your staff right down to the players themselves and unfortunately for managers  its a very negative consequence of instant/social media.

The negativity that can be whipped up within a matter of months, and directed against a manager these days is just astonishing, and in large part it comes from a sometimes toxic relationship between the fans, the media/social media, and the players themselves, with each feeding off, and being influenced by the other. 

David Moyes was the prime and most extreme example, of how the fans, media, and players can mutually influence one another in a negative sense, to bring about a managers dismissal, but with pretty much the same result (Van Gaul) in the end, and at great expenditure. 

We know now that the players and even his assistant manager Ryan Gigg's were undermining David Moyes at every opportunity because basically they just looked down upon him as a nobody who hadn't ever won anything. He was never given a fair chance, because the Man U players considered him beneath them before he had even walked into the dressing room. The players he brought in such as Fellani and Mata were declared to be total rubbish, by man U fans and a massive waste of money. But they were, and are, great players as time would tell them... 

I do honestly believe that if fans just waited a season or two before they started protesting and hiring out planes, then the manager would be much more likely to turn things around as he wouldn't be under such an enormous burden of pressure and hostile negativity. But in this day and age that just isn't going to happen I guess...

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3 minutes ago, wolf8312 said:

Well nobody knows the future so I am willing to accept I may be wrong, I mean like I said we could end up getting relegated!

Yeah sure tactics are important but I seriously believe so is a positive and supporting atmosphere. If you boo your own team at half time for example, all you really end up doing is making your own team nervous, and actually fearful of their own crowd which becomes counter productive!

Imagine trying to do a job like that, waking up everyday to read how you're a dead man walking with planes literally flying past your head reading 'you suck' ! It would contaminate everything from your staff right down to the players themselves and unfortunately for managers  its a very negative consequence of instant/social media.

The negativity that can be whipped up within a matter of months, and directed against a manager these days is just astonishing, and in large part it comes from a sometimes toxic relationship between the fans, the media/social media, and the players themselves, with each feeding off, and being influenced by the other. 

David Moyes was the prime and most extreme example, of how the fans, media, and players can mutually influence one another in a negative sense, to bring about a managers dismissal, but with pretty much the same result (Van Gaul) in the end, and at great expenditure. 

We know now that the players and even his assistant manager Ryan Gigg's were undermining David Moyes at every opportunity because basically they just looked down upon him as a nobody who hadn't ever won anything. He was never given a fair chance, because the Man U players considered him beneath them before he had even walked into the dressing room. The players he brought in such as Fellani and Mata were declared to be total rubbish, by man U fans and a massive waste of money. But they were and are great players... 

I do honestly believe that if fans just waited a season or two before they started protesting and hiring out planes, then the manager would be much more likely to turn things around as he wouldn't be under such an enormous burden of pressure and hostile negativity. But in this day and age that just isn't going to happen I guess...

hmmmm not really....

when a manager comes in and gets rid of a valued backroom staff who have delivered medals galore,  sits multi medal winning Rio Ferdinand down and tells him to study Phil Jagielka, then continues to set up a ball playing team to bang in high crosses against teams with 6ft 4 centre halves then I'm afraid there is very little negative influencing required from the other players.

SAF had one piece of advice for Moyes - let my backroom staff guide you.... he didn't he got carried away with himself.

 

Koeman has created a rod for his own back - he has alienated players.  He has lost the fans, he has lost himself.  He has to go, he has only himself to blame.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, hafnia said:

hmmmm not really....

when a manager comes in and gets rid of a valued backroom staff who have delivered medals galore,  sits multi medal winning Rio Ferdinand down and tells him to study Phil Jagielka, then continues to set up a ball playing team to bang in high crosses against teams with 6ft 4 centre halves then I'm afraid there is very little negative influencing required from the other players.

SAF had one piece of advice for Moyes - let my backroom staff guide you.... he didn't he got carried away with himself.

 

Koeman has created a rod for his own back - he has alienated players.  He has lost the fans, he has lost himself.  He has to go, he has only himself to blame.

 

 

I wasn't saying Moyes was a good fit (wouldn't want him back at Everton) for Man U, as its clear that he was always the wrong man for that job with next to no credentials for such a big club. Firing the backroom staff was seemingly insane, but I guess he wanted to do the job his way which is understandable. Probably just being loyal to his own guys as well.

Point is he was still the boss, and it was clear that as with many other clubs the players simply downed tools and refused to lift a finger for him because they didn't respect him rightly or wrongly. In the end Rio, and his bruised ego, should not be sacrificing the team itself just to get rid of David Moyes, but should have been fighting for the fans and the shirt no matter what. Now you could make the argument that if they hadn't downed tools he might still be there (lol) but thats another post...

Same with the Mourinho situation, you only have to look how much they improved after he was gone, to know that they were purposefully sabotaging him. That type of behavior (losing on purpose basically) in my opinion can never really be justified. No matter who the manager is or what the players think of him, they should be giving their all.

I should point out though that I am not saying this is what is happening at Everton as I honestly dont know. I just think Koeman should get a bit of breathing space, because nobody really knows whats going on behind the scenes... 

Sometimes seems like even fans can get to the point of hating a manger so much that they actually want to lose, and thus prove said manager to be every bit as awful as they say he is! And when it gets to that point maybe all, is indeed lost!

Ps.

When you say alienated the players you mean by criticizing them?

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24 minutes ago, wolf8312 said:

I wasn't saying Moyes was a good fit (wouldn't want him back at Everton) for Man U, as its clear that he was always the wrong man for that job with next to no credentials for such a big club. Firing the backroom staff was seemingly insane, but I guess he wanted to do the job his way which is understandable. Probably just being loyal to his own guys as well.

Point is he was still the boss, and it was clear that as with many other clubs the players simply downed tools and refused to lift a finger for him because they didn't respect him rightly or wrongly. In the end Rio, and his bruised ego, should not be sacrificing the team itself just to get rid of David Moyes, but should have been fighting for the fans and the shirt no matter what. Now you could make the argument that if they hadn't downed tools he might still be there (lol) but thats another post...

Same with the Mourinho situation, you only have to look how much they improved after he was gone, to know that they were purposefully sabotaging him. That type of behavior (losing on purpose basically) in my opinion can never really be justified. No matter who the manager is or what the players think of him, they should be giving their all.

I should point out though that I am not saying this is what is happening at Everton as I honestly dont know. I just think Koeman should get a bit of breathing space, because nobody really knows whats going on behind the scenes... 

Sometimes seems like even fans can get to the point of hating a manger so much that they actually want to lose, and thus prove said manager to be every bit as awful as they say he is! And when it gets to that point maybe all, is indeed lost!

Ps.

When you say alienated the players you mean by criticizing them?

by alienate I mean that he was specifically targeting Barkley for criticism when no other individuals were getting stick...so much so that barkley himself and indeed other people in the media were questioning why he was doing it. 

Lets be clear - fans don't prove that a manager is poor, he does that all by himself.  Fans have different tolerances.

Most good managers are able to quickly identify issues within a side  - Koeman cant even do this slowly. 

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1 hour ago, hafnia said:

we don't earn points for being right MJB.

My source was incorrect to the point that the timeline for unsworth taking over has already elapsed...

That's not to say that it won't happen.

 

Either way Koeman "MUST GO".....  his position is untenable.  No tactics, no passion, falls out with players, drops ones who are doing well and sticks to his favourites - money spent on players who are being shoehorned into roles they are not suited to. 

If Unsworth comes in we will see a marked uptick in performance - absolutely no doubt about it.

 

 

 

could have fooled me Haf, i thought that was your only motivator

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34 minutes ago, wolf8312 said:

I wasn't saying Moyes was a good fit (wouldn't want him back at Everton) for Man U, as its clear that he was always the wrong man for that job with next to no credentials for such a big club. Firing the backroom staff was seemingly insane, but I guess he wanted to do the job his way which is understandable. Probably just being loyal to his own guys as well.

Point is he was still the boss, and it was clear that as with many other clubs the players simply downed tools and refused to lift a finger for him because they didn't respect him rightly or wrongly. In the end Rio, and his bruised ego, should not be sacrificing the team itself just to get rid of David Moyes, but should have been fighting for the fans and the shirt no matter what. Now you could make the argument that if they hadn't downed tools he might still be there (lol) but thats another post...

Same with the Mourinho situation, you only have to look how much they improved after he was gone, to know that they were purposefully sabotaging him. That type of behavior (losing on purpose basically) in my opinion can never really be justified. No matter who the manager is or what the players think of him, they should be giving their all.

I should point out though that I am not saying this is what is happening at Everton as I honestly dont know. I just think Koeman should get a bit of breathing space, because nobody really knows whats going on behind the scenes... 

Sometimes seems like even fans can get to the point of hating a manger so much that they actually want to lose, and thus prove said manager to be every bit as awful as they say he is! And when it gets to that point maybe all, is indeed lost!

Ps.

When you say alienated the players you mean by criticizing them?

There is a fine line between giving a manager enough time to succeed, and allowing the club to continue to fail. I don't think there is a set amount of time each manager should be given, I know Kendell always said it took 3 years but I think that's a bit excessive.  

I would support Koeman staying on but I just can't see any sign that we are going in the right direction, or signs of improvement. I really think he does not know how to get us out of this.

Look at him last night, this was a man who was raving at the referee at the end of the match, looked disheveled and at the end of his wits, not exactly the image of a man with a plan and belief. 

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1 minute ago, London Blue said:

There is a fine line between giving a manager enough time to succeed, and allowing the club to continue to fail. I don't think there is a set amount of time each manager should be given, I know Kendell always said it took 3 years but I think that's a bit excessive.  

I would support Koeman staying on but I just can't see any sign that we are going in the right direction, or signs of improvement. I really think he does not know how to get us out of this.

Look at him last night, this was a man who was raving at the referee at the end of the match, looked disheveled and at the end of his wits, not exactly the image of a man with a plan and belief. 

Indeed and I dont think the pressure is going to let up either, and so he'll probably continue to unravel. If he's lost the dressing room then I dont see how he will be able to turn it around sadly.

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If Koeman had a plan and stuck to  it, even though it wasn't working,  we at least could see what he was trying to do.  The fact is that he is continually changing things, game to game and first-half to second-half which gives the, not unreasonable, impression of sheer panic.  The 'give him time' lobby should consider how the season is going to pan out if he continues with this strategy.

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I'm not going back to quote all his comments but have to say '''I'm with Haf". Can't understand those who even now say give Koeman time...Why? he's had it and we are going back. Laughing stock of the Prem and after a possible/probable loss on Sunday, in the relegation zone. If that's the case don't see the morale in the squad improving and that's down to the management. Sorry times.

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7 hours ago, nogs said:

Pickford kept us in it, I remember at least two crucial saves when they were clear through. Him and Vlasic are the only two new signings worth a place in the side.

I know you jumped on me when I criticised Klaassen last night, but his selection has to go down as a massive error. In a game we had to win to keep any realistic hopes of staying in Europe alive, why play someone so badly out of form? And to then be hauled off at half time - it just shows Koeman knows he made a mistake.

We cannot afford to let these players play themselves back into form in the first team. Not when the likes of Mirallas and Lookman, who haven't been starting, looked two of our best players last night, albeit for a half each. We have to play players on form, which Koeman refuses to do. Keane, Schneiderlin, Klaassen, Sandro and Martina all need a spell in the U23s to find their heads, that's if they can get into a winning side.

 

Well, I jumped on you because your statement was very extreme - "He should fuck off and get out of the club" or something like that. I don't think anyone of the new signings should get out of the club so early after their arrival. They have to prove themselves as truly worthless, something they're doing quite well at the moment, but I believe under different management many of them, especially Klaassen, will flourish. That's all. I agree with everything else you said though.

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2 hours ago, wolf8312 said:

David Moyes was the prime and most extreme example, of how the fans, media, and players can mutually influence one another in a negative sense, to bring about a managers dismissal, but with pretty much the same result (Van Gaul) in the end, and at great expenditure. 

We know now that the players and even his assistant manager Ryan Gigg's were undermining David Moyes at every opportunity because basically they just looked down upon him as a nobody who hadn't ever won anything. He was never given a fair chance, because the Man U players considered him beneath them before he had even walked into the dressing room. The players he brought in such as Fellani and Mata were declared to be total rubbish, by man U fans and a massive waste of money. But they were and are great players as time would tell them... 

I do honestly believe that if fans just waited a season or two before they started protesting and hiring out planes, then the manager would be much more likely to turn things around as he wouldn't be under such an enormous burden of pressure and hostile negativity. But in this day and age that just isn't going to happen I guess...

All well said!!

I became an Everton supporter because of David Moyes and how he ran his team. Loads of character from him, the players, and the atmosphere at Goodison. They looked and acted like real fighters at times. Thats what I believed in!!! A fighting squad. But what are we left with now? A shell, something hollowed out. He had a long tenure at Everton which I also respect. I still feel bad for the guy for how he was treated when he moved over to ManU. Absolutely disrespectful. He was in his element at Everton. He should have never had left, and he probably thinks the same thing from time to time. But now his confidence is completely gone.

Like you said: the fans, the media, and the players can really turn a managers working environment hostile. We are human after all, but when the stakes are high the margin for error become razor thin. Who in their right mind takes such a job?? haha.

I think Koeman deserves more time. Let him ride this out. How can we as supports expect silverware and glory in such a short amount of time. Patience!!! It's hard to watch at times, but the answer is not a new manager. It will only further our discontinuity. We need to be critical of our manager and the squad the he builds up, but that's it. We are still building. Some pieces will not work and that is his fault, it's his job to fix it. Let him do his job for awhile longer at least ;)

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12 minutes ago, ForEverton2 said:

All well said!!

I became an Everton supporter because of David Moyes and how he ran his team. Loads of character from him, the players, and the atmosphere at Goodison. They looked and acted like real fighters at times. Thats what I believed in!!! A fighting squad. But what are we left with now? A shell, something hollowed out. He had a long tenure at Everton which I also respect. I still feel bad for the guy for how he was treated when he moved over to ManU. Absolutely disrespectful. He was in his element at Everton. He should have never had left, and he probably thinks the same thing from time to time. But now his confidence is completely gone.

Like you said: the fans, the media, and the players can really turn a managers working environment hostile. We are human after all, but when the stakes are high the margin for error becomes razor thin. Who in their right mind takes such a job?? haha.

I think Koeman deserves more time. Let him ride this out. How can we as supports expect silverware and glory in such a short amount of time. Patience!!! It's hard to watch at times, but the answer is not a new manager. It will only further our discontinuity. We need to be critical of our manager and the squad the he builds up, but that's it. We are still building. Some pieces will not work and that is his fault, it's his job to fix it. Let him do his job for awhile longer at least ;)

Exactly! It was a disgrace how Moyes was treated at Man U and I think its probably something that still deeply haunts him because it went beyond football, and was in the end just bullying and persecution.

Still when I start feeling sorry for football managers like David Moyes I do have to remind myself that for failing in his job he was awarded 5 million quid!

5 million quid, and I'm feeling sorry for him?

 

 

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Just now, wolf8312 said:

Exactly! It was a disgrace how Moyes was treated at Man U and I think its probably something that still deeply haunts him because it went beyond football, and was in the end just bullying and persecution.

Still when I start feeling sorry for football managers like David Moyes I do have to remind myself that for failing in his job he was awarded 5 million quid!

5 million quid, and I'm feeling sorry for him?

 

 

5 million quid, but then you have to manage Sunderland :doh:

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A poor loss and fans and players in scuffles to add to it,  it all adds up to another massive embarrassment for the club.

 I can't call him a manager because he's not able to manage anything at the moment, but this man must go he's dragging our club into ridicule.

 

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