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Referendum  

49 members have voted

  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
      25
    • Leave
      24


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Had cards through and at the moment I'm voting out of Europe.

Sick of that snake Cameron and the media machine scare mongering and not giving people unbiased news. The NHS will crumble, it's already wilting.

Anyone put a poll up for me please?

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Sick of that snake Cameron and the media machine scare mongering and not giving people unbiased news.

 

The out camp are doing exactly the same thing.

 

Nobody really knows the consequences of leaving, even the campaigners are guessing.

 

I'll vote to stay in purely for the reason I gave here...

 

http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/27857-would-you-like-to-make-history/&do=findComment&comment=510346

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Stay in, because leaving is stupid.

 

Plus I could never vote for something being campaigned for by Johnson, Gove, Duncan-Smith and Farage/UKIP; I'd never be able to look at my face in the mirror again.

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Plus I could never vote for something being campaigned for by Johnson, Gove, Duncan-Smith and Farage/UKIP; I'd never be able to look at my face in the mirror again.

this is what I can't get my head around. How can anyone want to leave when you've got these greedy, selfish fuckwits campaigning for it? Good of the country?! Good for their own pockets and the pockets of the companies they protect and profit from. Only bad can come from this, not just for Britain but globally.

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The problem of voting 'stay' is that the undemocratic elite that run the EU and oversee the mess that the euro has created, will see it as a justification that everything they have done is totally right and we will get more of it and at an increased rate.

After several hundred years of 'going it alone' we now have a Prime Minister who doesn't think we can do it. As Del Boy says 'what a plonker'.

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£350m a day goes to the euro fund from us, and were still not allowed to govern our own country.

That money comes back into the country though and finds its way to deprived areas rather than London. Liverpool would be a lot worse off with out the union.

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Sorry I meant £350 a week ..... equal to I don't know how many Billions

 

 

Pete, last year we got a rebate of £12m.

 

"The UK rebate is a financial mechanism which reduces the United Kingdom's contribution to the EU budget in effect since 1985. It is a complex calculation which equates to approximately 66% of the UK's net contribution - the amount paid by the UK into the EU budget less EU expenditure in the UK. Based on a net contribution of €12.1 billion (£9.8 billion) in 2014, the UK Treasury estimates the 2015 rebate amounted to €6.2 billion (£4.9 billion), reducing the ultimate UK contribution for the 2015 budget to €16.6 billion (£12.9 billion)."

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I will vote leave. Why? Well here is the thing, I am NOT concerned about businesses or finance to the nation, after all we did ok before we joined up.

 

No my reason is simple and straightforward. Freedom of choice. I want to be free to vote for my choice of who rules us. Yes we may cock up, but that happens and we will survive it. But now we get a President of the EU, and we get EU rules and laws imposed on us. Some folks may like this idea (it is a free country after all (sic)) however I would rather pick and choose for myself rather than have a German/ French/whatever decision made on our behalf.

 

All the other arguments mean nothing to me. Not even the for and against immigration ones.

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"The UK rebate is a financial mechanism which reduces the United Kingdom's contribution to the EU budget in effect since 1985. It is a complex calculation which equates to approximately 66% of the UK's net contribution - the amount paid by the UK into the EU budget less EU expenditure in the UK. Based on a net contribution of €12.1 billion (£9.8 billion) in 2014, the UK Treasury estimates the 2015 rebate amounted to €6.2 billion (£4.9 billion), reducing the ultimate UK contribution for the 2015 budget to €16.6 billion (£12.9 billion)."

The UK rebate was negotiated by Margaret Thatcher and largely given away by Blair.

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I have counted up the 'leave' posts and get 5 but only 2 votes for leaving in the poll?

Sorry I didn't see the poll but I have corrected my input now.

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The UK rebate was negotiated by Margaret Thatcher and largely given away by Blair.

 

If it's still 66% of our contribution I don't think anyone can be accused of largely giving it away can they? It might have been reduced.

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If it's still 66% of our contribution I don't think anyone can be accused of largely giving it away can they? It might have been reduced.

The amount of rebate (from 2010) post Blair reduced by 40%. Not insignificant.

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I will vote leave. Why? Well here is the thing, I am NOT concerned about businesses or finance to the nation, after all we did ok before we joined up.

 

No my reason is simple and straightforward. Freedom of choice. I want to be free to vote for my choice of who rules us. Yes we may cock up, but that happens and we will survive it. But now we get a President of the EU, and we get EU rules and laws imposed on us. Some folks may like this idea (it is a free country after all (sic)) however I would rather pick and choose for myself rather than have a German/ French/whatever decision made on our behalf.

 

All the other arguments mean nothing to me. Not even the for and against immigration ones.

 

So where do you draw the line? Do you want independence for Wales? Independence for Anglesey? Independence for the village where you live? Each of those would gradually give you a bigger say in who "rules" you. We could go back thousands of years and all be run by village elders!

 

As I've said before; think the future of the World, and a safer World for my kids and grandkids, is better served by moving in the other direction. Pulling up the drawbridge and saying "We're considerably richer than you" would be a big step backwards imo.

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Actually Mike I have no argument on the size of the grouping EU is ok in size and what it plans for the future and all that bumf, but why can I not vote for who is president? it is not democratic it is dictatorial.

 

 

 

 

 

Just a thought though, I noticed when I am in here just a moment ago, I am with Bill, Johnh and MikeO. Made me suspect that age has an important effect on the voting. Not which way of course as I want out and Mike wants in. I was curious as to how important folks feel about the subject and the age they are at.

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Just a thought though, I noticed when I am in here just a moment ago, I am with Bill, Johnh and MikeO. Made me suspect that age has an important effect on the voting. Not which way of course as I want out and Mike wants in. I was curious as to how important folks feel about the subject and the age they are at.

 

I think that's a good point/question (still the same four now).

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Actually Mike I have no argument on the size of the grouping EU is ok in size and what it plans for the future and all that bumf, but why can I not vote for who is president? it is not democratic it is dictatorial.

 

There is no president.

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Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me).

 

If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins.

 

The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out.

 

Rubecula: on the age issue: I read that it's mostly (mostly; not all) older, white working class voters who have few or no educational qualifications who vote for UKIP. Also it's mostly older people who care most about national sovereignty and are "proud" of their country.

One of the most important principles in EU law is the principle of subsidiarity. Which mean that the EU does not take action, unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level. This principle very much strengthens national sovereignty and ensures it is always in the best (common) interest for the EU to take action.

 

Rubecula: regarding the EU president: it's not a president per se; only someone who head the European Council for a couple of years (this position used to rotate between European leaders of each country every six months)

I would agree that there are a lot of problems with the democratic deficit in the EU, but only a closer union can solve those, which is exactly the opposite of what Cameron negotiated.

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Lord owens piece was very interesting.

 

You toss a coin mate or decide who you believe or go with your gut. Said it before but nobody knows for sure what the consequences will be one way or the other, everyone's guessing. NHS future is massively close to my heart (as I know it is to yours).

 

I've explained my position already more than once, probably best if I now leave this thread alone (though I probably won't :P).

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Its not a dictatorship its an oligarchy. It is run by 'elites' and the whole structure is designed so that neither they, nor their successors, can be dispensed with. (I was going to say voted out but there is no vote for these elites.) In some ways it would be better if it was a dictatorship as dictators can be overthrown but with EU structures and so many countries the only 'out' is through a referendum. It will be the worst mistake this country has ever made if we vote to stay in.

 

I voted in favour in the last referendum when we thought we were voting to join the Common Market. We were conned by (particularly) Edward Heath, who was a Europhile, and also by Harold Wilson. Both knew exactly what the 'con' was. Politicians of whatever party are the most self-serving element of our society. They see failed politicians like the Kinnocks become multi-millionaires courtesy of the EU, so its little wonder that so many of them support Remain.

 

On the other hand I don't feet particularly stongly one way or the other. :rofl:

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Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me).

 

If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins.

 

The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out.

 

Rubecula: on the age issue: I read that it's mostly (mostly; not all) older, white working class voters who have few or no educational qualifications who vote for UKIP. Also it's mostly older people who care most about national sovereignty and are "proud" of their country.

One of the most important principles in EU law is the principle of subsidiarity. Which mean that the EU does not take action, unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level. This principle very much strengthens national sovereignty and ensures it is always in the best (common) interest for the EU to take action.

 

Rubecula: regarding the EU president: it's not a president per se; only someone who head the European Council for a couple of years (this position used to rotate between European leaders of each country every six months)

I would agree that there are a lot of problems with the democratic deficit in the EU, but only a closer union can solve those, which is exactly the opposite of what Cameron negotiated.

 

Saw you were looking at the thread and well remember your background Holystove so I was hoping you'd post your opinion. Thanks for it.

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At the end of the day, modern politics is all the same bullshit isn't it?!

 

My gut is voting OUT...simply because I do not like what the EU had become. I hold no fears over us as a nation being out of the EU.

 

I've got a bit more reading up to do yet.

 

But to be honest, I'm sick to death of the whole system in this Country, the EU, and in the developed world as a whole. The whole set up between Governments, Banks, Big Business and the lawyers that represent them is just one big scam.

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Question for the OUT people - will you be mad when Scotland votes out of the U.K.? Logic would say you would support them but I'm guessing you want out of the EU but want the UK to stay together.

I couldn't give a shit what the Scots do.

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Question for the OUT people - will you be mad when Scotland votes out of the U.K.? Logic would say you would support them but I'm guessing you want out of the EU but want the UK to stay together.

 

SNP wants to be out of the UK but in Europe. Make of that what you will.

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2 words; historical bitterness

 

Don't agree; politically they're past that, Salmond and then Nicola Sturgeon are above it; impressive leaders.

 

My two words would be "self interest".

 

They know they're better off in than out.

 

As opposed to people like Boris, who has chosen his camp purely for his own personal ambition (next PM). He'd be campaigning day and night for "in" if it fitted his personal agenda. Intelligent guy who has come to realise he's most likely to achieve his ambition by playing the buffoon.

 

Edit: Dammit, I was staying out of this :(.

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I saw this in the comments section of the FT some weeks ago and it made me smile.


'Leaving the EU should not be feared or overcomplicated :-


It's very simple - There will be NO negotiating. The UK simply sends the EU bureaucrats and the heads of state of Germany and France our biggest trading partners a single A4 sheet. On it is written, thank you for the recent cooperation - now that the UK has left the EU, we wanted to show our appreciation for past endeavours and set out the future which should be a smooth interaction on trade.


The UK will trade with all EU member states on the same terms as before.


The trade is on goods and services and clearly there will be no further discussions regarding immigration, legal matters, foreign policy, climate change or anything regarding fiscal or internal economic policy, as these are matters for the British government and the people of Britain.


We don't expect that any of these omissions will affect trade, as equal trade terms are in the best interest of all EU nations concerned and Britain.


Should barriers to trade be erected by any state, then a reciprocation will take place, but clearly this is in no one's interests.


We wish you all well with your continued EU experiment.'


There are idiots on both sides of the campaign who you never think you'd align yourself with.

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You toss a coin mate or decide who you believe or go with your gut. Said it before but nobody knows for sure what the consequences will be one way or the other, everyone's guessing. NHS future is massively close to my heart (as I know it is to yours).

 

I've explained my position already more than once, probably best if I now leave this thread alone (though I probably won't :P).

Totally with you on that one. The NHS is one of the greatest things this country has done. Who knows what the future holds.

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Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me).

 

If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins.

 

The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out.

 

Rubecula: on the age issue: I read that it's mostly (mostly; not all) older, white working class voters who have few or no educational qualifications who vote for UKIP. Also it's mostly older people who care most about national sovereignty and are "proud" of their country.

One of the most important principles in EU law is the principle of subsidiarity. Which mean that the EU does not take action, unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level. This principle very much strengthens national sovereignty and ensures it is always in the best (common) interest for the EU to take action.

 

Rubecula: regarding the EU president: it's not a president per se; only someone who head the European Council for a couple of years (this position used to rotate between European leaders of each country every six months)

I would agree that there are a lot of problems with the democratic deficit in the EU, but only a closer union can solve those, which is exactly the opposite of what Cameron negotiated.

Wonderful post my friend and I can really see your point on this I agree about Cameron, and every right wing politician. Sadly I am not enamoured by the left either. At this moment in time I find it very difficult to find enough redeeming features for either side, be it in or out of EU.

 

Question for the OUT people - will you be mad when Scotland votes out of the U.K.? Logic would say you would support them but I'm guessing you want out of the EU but want the UK to stay together.

Honest answer here is if I was Scottish I think I would be very anti Union. But I am not, and shame to say it I do not want them to leave us. However, it is entirely up to them and is their option to choose, not mine. I hope they get what they want and deserve, and the same for us. I believe in democracy, even if the final choice is not what I want personally.

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Not really Mogsy as they are still accountable to the British people, and the electorate. But if you are worried by all means vote to stay in.

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I believe in democracy, even if the final choice is not what I want personally.

 

The British electoral system is a completely undemocratic version of "democracy" though Rubes; at least the Euro elections use PR so are really representative of what the people want.

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The British electoral system is a completely undemocratic version of "democracy" though Rubes; at least the Euro elections use PR so are really representative of what the people want.

I must disagree with you Mike as much as you say nice things about them, I simply can not see it myself. But as I say you are entitled to think and vote the way you wish, and I will abide by the decision that the British public reach quite happily. I just think it would be better for us to be outside the EU, at least for the immediate future.

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Lord owens piece was very interesting.

 

Oh the irony in these comments. In the US, the Democrats have looked at Britain as the model for universal healthcare, whereas in Britain his claim is that NHS administrators look to the US model! The truth is that the level of healthcare in the US far exceeds the level in Britain (unpopular though it may be to say that), but it's very unevenly distributed based on ability to pay. That's always been the dilemma and will continue to be.

 

For David Owen to support the Brexit is an about-face of remarkable proportions. In the early 80s, when I was a parliamentary candidate for the Liberals, David Owen (and David Steel at the time) were among the biggest proponents of the EU.

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Not really Mogsy as they are still accountable to the British people, and the electorate. But if you are worried by all means vote to stay in.

The British public voted them in in the first place!

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If 'in' is 1/5 on with the bookies, that's good news for the 'outers'. The bookies got it spectacularly wrong at the last election, as did the pollsters.

 

I won a bet on the last election and struck another bet at the time. That Brexit would win 55% to 45%. Have just looked at the poll above. :D

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Issues aside.

 

Can I just say that I hate the term "Brexit",

 

Portmanteau word that's media invented and totally unnecessary, same as "Grexit" was. Could we not just speak English?

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