johnh Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Matt, speaking for myself, no apologies needed. I enjoy the cut and thrust of debate on here and I am old enough to appreciate that people hold different views for different reasons and my reasons are only right for me. Matt and rubecula 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Steve, only allowing people to vote after they've had kids, wouldn't be the greatest thing for LGBT rights . Then you don't know the LGBT community too well. I know many gay couples with children: They adopt or foster. But I take your point, and I was using hyperbole to make mine. Edited January 23, 2017 by Cornish Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Matt, speaking for myself, no apologies needed. I enjoy the cut and thrust of debate on here and I am old enough to appreciate that people hold different views for different reasons and my reasons are only right for me. Really? Mine are right for everybody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Then you don't know the LGBT community too well. I know many gay couples with children: They adopt or foster. This is actually a lot harder than it should be. My brother is gay and him and his husband have been trying to adopt a child for years now. There's not enough kids up for adoption in Belgium so they have to go international. However, most countries where Belgians usually adopt from (Ethiopia, Somalia, the Congo, etc.) have very strict rules which require that the child goes to a traditional family (i.e. not same sex). Maybe it's easier in America because there are more possibilities to adopt within the US, but in ultra-liberal lefty Belgium, it's very tough for two gay guys to adopt a kid. (back on topic: so he's negatively impacted by a decision taken by someone who he didn't even get to vote for ). Edited January 23, 2017 by holystove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38720320 British law applied Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38720320 British law applied May will probably take it to the European Court of Justice . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 not really possible to appeal to the ECJ. case could only have been referred by supreme court. Anyway, this all seems like a waste of time as it won't change a thing. As I understand it, UK Parliament will (and was always going to) vote in favor of triggering article 50. Hope the March deadline will still be met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 not really possible to appeal to the ECJ. case could only have been referred by supreme court. Anyway, this all seems like a waste of time as it won't change a thing. As I understand it, UK Parliament will (and was always going to) vote in favor of triggering article 50. Hope the March deadline will still be met. I know, but it's funny to see the tabloids and the rabid Brexiteers foaming at the mouth again for a bit . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 If you wanna see how this plays out watch America. Trump is ripping up all our trade deals right now, you can watch as we free fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Not sure if this has been posted before but it made me laugh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 If you wanna see how this plays out watch America. Trump is ripping up all our trade deals right now, you can watch as we free fall.Good does that mean the £ will rise against the $ going to Mexico in nine would come in handy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Good does that mean the £ will rise against the $ going to Mexico in nine would come in handy.. your PM is about to tether your country to ours this week. we are both cancelling all trade deals and then signing one with each other. we'll sink together my friend. Have any irish heritage? might be best to find a boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 I know, but it's funny to see the tabloids and the rabid Brexiteers foaming at the mouth again for a bit . I agree.. but the line between funny and frightening is really thin. " Dave Padgett is feeling angry. 2 hrs · Barnsley, United Kingdom · So Gina Miller is shocked at the abuse and threats she has received for taking the government to court to stop article 50.This woman is not British although she as made millions in this country.Those millions are not in our banks, try off shore. She should be shot, hung ,drawn and quartered .Is that a threat yer it is, got to smile looking at her hench men at each side of her they looked as handy as a ash tray on a motor bike " Alan Kershaw 1 hr · Scunthorpe, United Kingdom · So much for Democracy. The judges who ruled this morning are nothing more then traitors to the English people..... As for Gina miller someone should end game that bitch....... " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Unfortunately there are loonies in every country and behind every cause. Doesn't necessarily mean the cause is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Unfortunately there are loonies in every country and behind every cause. Doesn't necessarily mean the cause is wrong.ill agree with you on the first bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 The loonie factor does seem to be particularly strong and prevalent in one side... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Unfortunately there are loonies in every country and behind every cause. Doesn't necessarily mean the cause is wrong. You don't get loonie moderates by definition, so I wouldn't agree that every cause has them. The loonie factor does seem to be particularly strong and prevalent in one side... No question. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Cause: Brexit Loonies: Leave = Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage Remain = David Cameron, George Osborne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Cause: Brexit Loonies: Leave = Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage Remain = David Cameron, George Osborne. I was takling loonies among the support rather than the campaigners John, though I'm not suggesting for a moment that you are one. But then again . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I was talking loonies among the support rather than the campaigners John, though I'm not suggesting for a moment that you are one. But then again . I'm only a loonie in spells - like when I'm sober. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Steve, only allowing people to vote after they've had kids, wouldn't be the greatest thing for LGBT rights . - Yikes Rubes. Brexit will cause the Belgian GDP to drop 2-4 percentage points. This because of a decision I had no say in... however I don't equate you deciding what you think is best for you with threatening me.., and it doesn't make me want to fuck you with a barbed wire xmas tree . Other countries will make decisions without you having had a say in them, and those decisions might adversely affect you. It's just the way things go in a globalised world and it is not EU-related. You did see I posted IMO in brackets? I make no apology for wanting Brexit, in the same way I do not want anyone to apologise for wanting to remain. I wanted to leave for my own reasons. Such as we live in a democracy and I wanted us to remain in one, and not have rules and regulations pushed on us by people who had not been given a mandate to do so. I have no arguments with the people of Europe, I love the place, but growing together like siblings is better than growing together like some giant artificial amoeba. (Shapeless, brainless and not very much liked by others) I do think a lot of european rules make sense in some ways, but equally there are some that don't. And it is those we didn't ask for that are forced on us that made me choose the way I did. As I said we live in a democracy, if we had voted to remain I would have accepted that and not bitched and moaned like a sow on heat the way some remainers do. However, delaying tactics will not change the inevitable, so why do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 As I said we live in a democracy, if we had voted to remain I would have accepted that and not bitched and moaned like a sow on heat the way some remainers do. However, delaying tactics will not change the inevitable, so why do it? Would've been the same if the result had gone the other way, the Brexiteers wouldn't have just said, "OK we lost so lets get on with it". They'd be Bremoaners (did I invent a new word?). Matt and rubecula 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Rubes, I think the a big reason Remainers moan like a sow in heat is because it was only a 2% majority and the Leave campaigns' most successful arguments were lies. I also don't really get the counter argument that Remain lied just as much .. doesn't that only even further delegitimize the result because it means both sides didn't know what they were voting for? Secondly, May and others are using this questionable mandate to turn the UK into something that goes against everything Leave promised before the referendum. Prominent Leave campaigners promised that Brexit wouldn't mean leaving the single market (now it turns out it does mean that); Prominent Leave campaigners promised more money for the NHS. Now it turns out that to get a good deal from the EU, the UK threatens to become a tax haven (which means no NHS, or at least a very substantially smaller NHS). May putting all her eggs in a US-UK trade deal will probably also mean some sort of privatisation of the NHS because that's what Trump wants... If that had been on the ballot, no way would Leave have gotten a majority. If I were British I'd be very wary of how this Tory government is (ab-)using the support for Brexit to turn the UK into a anti-social, anti-civil liberties, anti-regulation tax haven. Final point, wasn't it Farage who said that in case Remain won with a small majority, this would in no way put an end to his cause? rubecula, MikeO and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Rubes, I think the a big reason Remainers moan like a sow in heat is because it was only a 2% majority and the Leave campaigns' most successful arguments were lies. I also don't really get the counter argument that Remain lied just as much .. doesn't that only even further delegitimize the result because it means both sides didn't know what they were voting for? Secondly, May and others are using this questionable mandate to turn the UK into something that goes against everything Leave promised before the referendum. Prominent Leave campaigners promised that Brexit wouldn't mean leaving the single market (now it turns out it does mean that); Prominent Leave campaigners promised more money for the NHS. Now it turns out that to get a good deal from the EU, the UK threatens to become a tax haven (which means no NHS, or at least a very substantially smaller NHS). May putting all her eggs in a US-UK trade deal will probably also mean some sort of privatisation of the NHS because that's what Trump wants... If that had been on the ballot, no way would Leave have gotten a majority. If I were British I'd be very wary of how this Tory government is (ab-)using the support for Brexit to turn the UK into a anti-social, anti-civil liberties, anti-regulation tax haven. Final point, wasn't it Farage who said that in case Remain won with a small majority, this would in no way put an end to his cause? Excellent post. The Tories have a way of being able to lie to the peoples faces whilst getting their votes, it's impressive, even more so if they get vote from Merseyside considering how they've tried to strip the county bare in the last 30-40 years. Just read a new part in the Morishi article Romey posted (can't remember if this was already announced or not): Liverpool city council, which will in March decide how to make a further £90m cuts to its budget, on top of £330m taken out of its budget since the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government came to power in 2010, has been seeking ways to generate money by borrowing at low rates and renting assets commercially. So the Tories have taken £400m+ out of Merseyside in 6 years, whilst the EU has contributed towards the development of Merseyside and the North West to the tone of around £700m in the same time, pledged another £450m from 2016-2020, and totalling nearly £2billion since 1996. I worry for the area with the current setup and probable lose of income. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Rubes, I think the a big reason Remainers moan like a sow in heat is because it was only a 2% majority and the Leave campaigns' most successful arguments were lies. I also don't really get the counter argument that Remain lied just as much .. doesn't that only even further delegitimize the result because it means both sides didn't know what they were voting for? Secondly, May and others are using this questionable mandate to turn the UK into something that goes against everything Leave promised before the referendum. Prominent Leave campaigners promised that Brexit wouldn't mean leaving the single market (now it turns out it does mean that); Prominent Leave campaigners promised more money for the NHS. Now it turns out that to get a good deal from the EU, the UK threatens to become a tax haven (which means no NHS, or at least a very substantially smaller NHS). May putting all her eggs in a US-UK trade deal will probably also mean some sort of privatisation of the NHS because that's what Trump wants... If that had been on the ballot, no way would Leave have gotten a majority. If I were British I'd be very wary of how this Tory government is (ab-)using the support for Brexit to turn the UK into a anti-social, anti-civil liberties, anti-regulation tax haven. Final point, wasn't it Farage who said that in case Remain won with a small majority, this would in no way put an end to his cause? 'I also don't really get the counter argument that remain lied just as much'. chuckle, chuckle. The remain campaign had the government behind them. Cameron and Osborne had the Treasury, CBI and many others spouting the fear factor. I would put the 'lie factor' at about 5 to 1 on the remainers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 'I also don't really get the counter argument that remain lied just as much'. chuckle, chuckle. The remain campaign had the government behind them. Cameron and Osborne had the Treasury, CBI and many others spouting the fear factor. I would put the 'lie factor' at about 5 to 1 on the remainers. to quote my previous post: "doesn't that only even further delegitimize the result because it means both sides didn't know what they were voting for?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) I thought negative times negative equals positive. Seriously, the two campaigns were a disgrace, which appears to be the modern way. I really don't believe the British people are stupid, though. You could see through lies, and I could see through lies. Are we just smarter than everyone else? Edited January 26, 2017 by Cornish Steve rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Rubes, I think the a big reason Remainers moan like a sow in heat is because it was only a 2% majority and the Leave campaigns' most successful arguments were lies. I also don't really get the counter argument that Remain lied just as much .. doesn't that only even further delegitimize the result because it means both sides didn't know what they were voting for? Secondly, May and others are using this questionable mandate to turn the UK into something that goes against everything Leave promised before the referendum. Prominent Leave campaigners promised that Brexit wouldn't mean leaving the single market (now it turns out it does mean that); Prominent Leave campaigners promised more money for the NHS. Now it turns out that to get a good deal from the EU, the UK threatens to become a tax haven (which means no NHS, or at least a very substantially smaller NHS). May putting all her eggs in a US-UK trade deal will probably also mean some sort of privatisation of the NHS because that's what Trump wants... If that had been on the ballot, no way would Leave have gotten a majority. If I were British I'd be very wary of how this Tory government is (ab-)using the support for Brexit to turn the UK into a anti-social, anti-civil liberties, anti-regulation tax haven. Final point, wasn't it Farage who said that in case Remain won with a small majority, this would in no way put an end to his cause? Brilliant argument well thought out and well constructed. I would have loved to have read that before the referendum. I thought negative times negative equals positive. Seriously, the two campaigns were a disgrace, which appears to be the modern way. I really don't believe the British people are stupid, though. You could see through lies, and I could see through lies. Are we just smarter than everyone else? Fully agree on this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 I thought negative times negative equals positive. Seriously, the two campaigns were a disgrace, which appears to be the modern way. I really don't believe the British people are stupid, though. You could see through lies, and I could see through lies. Are we just smarter than everyone else? Does that mean you didn't vote because both sides lied, so you didn't vote so you couldn't be accused of being stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Does that mean you didn't vote because both sides lied, so you didn't vote so you couldn't be accused of being stupid.i think Steve wasn't allowed a vote, like me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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