Palfy Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 I voted to leave, I had a University education AND I am not a racist in any way shape or form.You need to complain to the BBC they made the stats up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 I voted to leave, I had a University education AND I am not a racist in any way shape or form. The University of Narnia isn't real Rubes, you dreamt it mate. Sorry . rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 that's what bank rolling the Nazi's does for you matt. The Swiss are spineless. the Swiss are anything but Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Not sure where else to put this, but it's a great representation of my beliefs: https://www.ted.com/talks/simon_anholt_which_country_does_the_most_good_for_the_world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Not sure where else to put this, but it's a great representation of my beliefs: https://www.ted.com/talks/simon_anholt_which_country_does_the_most_good_for_the_world Interesting that, it's from 2014 though and the UK has actually gone up to 4th place in the most recent list... https://goodcountry.org/index/overall-rankings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) the Swiss are anything but http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html laundering money and banking for the Nazi's matt. happy to take the jews money, but not take the jewish refugees (they had a trumpian policy). there's no such thing as neutrality, they were allies of the Nazi's. Edited February 8, 2017 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.htmlhow many years ago? laundering money and banking for the Nazi's matt. happy to take the jews money, but not take the jewish refugees (they had a trumpian policy). there's no such thing as neutrality, they were allies of the Nazi's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.htmlhow many years ago? laundering money and banking for the Nazi's matt. happy to take the jews money, but not take the jewish refugees (they had a trumpian policy). there's no such thing as neutrality, they were allies of the Nazi's. sorry matt, in a grumpy mood today no idea why I went on that rant. apologies amigo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 The University of Narnia isn't real Rubes, you dreamt it mate. Sorry . You evil git you hurt my feelings there............... well if I actually had any they might have been tickled a bit Seriously though I went to study Applied Biology (Byrom Street) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 yeah! Fuck the 81% who couldn't vote or voted remain! Democracy rules! Its the way we have always voted. Historically, most people accept the result of an election/referendum (except the EU if it goes against them) Its the same in the US, people complaining about the vote when its the way it has always been done. In the last General Election, SNP got 56 seats for 1.5m votes. UKIP (thank goodness) got 1 seat for 3.9m votes, so there are always anomalies but its the way it has always been done and for a very long time. The electorate also rejected proportional representation. So yes, democracy does rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 It's not a democracy when the biggest influence was a lie about the NHS. The media should be fair and punished for such bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 You evil git you hurt my feelings there............... well if I actually had any they might have been tickled a bit Seriously though I went to study Applied Biology (Byrom Street) I suspected it wasn't politics or economics when you said you voted to leave, Rubes that was said in jest. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Its the way we have always voted. Historically, most people accept the result of an election/referendum (except the EU if it goes against them) Its the same in the US, people complaining about the vote when its the way it has always been done. In the last General Election, SNP got 56 seats for 1.5m votes. UKIP (thank goodness) got 1 seat for 3.9m votes, so there are always anomalies but its the way it has always been done and for a very long time. The electorate also rejected proportional representation. So yes, democracy does rule. Yeah but if we always accepted the status quo we'd still have "rotten boroughs". Times need to move on; the vested interest of the two big parties screwed the PR vote because of the way they campaigned, turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The fairness of PR is a no-brainer compared to our current system, Liberals suffered from it for decades as did UKIP at the last election (though that made me very happy I have to say). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 First past the post keeps the swivel-eyed-loons, or most of them from getting into parliament. Trouble is with this system people feel that their vote does not count and that nobody listens to them. More voter apathy and then you end up with out of touch governments Protest votes, Brexit and Trump and possibly Le Penn in France PR helps to deal with this, but the you may end up with far right or left (Corbin is there already) getting seats and using their status to legitimise their views. Which encourages their supporters and leads to hostility. Devil and deep blue sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 First past the post keeps the swivel-eyed-loons, or most of them from getting into parliament. Trouble is with this system people feel that their vote does not count and that nobody listens to them. More voter apathy and then you end up with out of touch governments Protest votes, Brexit and Trump and possibly Le Penn in France PR helps to deal with this, but the you may end up with far right or left (Corbin is there already) getting seats and using their status to legitimise their views. Which encourages their supporters and leads to hostility. Devil and deep blue sea. It's a tough one to come up with an answer to. Said this before but I'd love to do away with the party system altogether, every constituency should vote on who they think the best man (or woman) for the job is and then every vote in parliament is a free one; none of this "three line whip" bollocks where everyone does as they're told or they get frozen out. PM could be voted for by MPs, it'll never happen but it'd put an end to all the tribal infantile nonsense we are stuck with today. Watching the commons on TV is like watching primary school kids, complete embarrassment. Actually that comparison is unfair on the kids. Romey 1878 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Its the way we have always voted. Historically, most people accept the result of an election/referendum (except the EU if it goes against them) Its the same in the US, people complaining about the vote when its the way it has always been done. In the last General Election, SNP got 56 seats for 1.5m votes. UKIP (thank goodness) got 1 seat for 3.9m votes, so there are always anomalies but its the way it has always been done and for a very long time. The electorate also rejected proportional representation. So yes, democracy does rule.I wouldn't call the lies of Johnson, Gove and Farage as democratic, if I could convince you to give me your life savings to invest but lied and spent your money you would want me to be charged with fraud.If what they said they were going to do with all this extra money the country was going to save doesn't happen, and if we are worse off and people lose there jobs and savings and potentially their homes, shouldn't we be able to charge them with treachery, or would you say they it was there democratic right to lie. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Trouble is that it lead to paralysis as you would never get consensus to get things done. Certainly no long term strategical thinking. Even the ancient Greeks under the first democracy with marbles and jars couldn't agree on weather to build the Parthenon until Pericles blackmailed them into it. I don't think there is a perfect system, but I think PR is the best system on offer, the best way to defeat extremism is to examine it is the searing light of debate, think Nick Griffin on Question Time. Having an unelected second chamber tends to soften the excesses of Parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 But surely we have to make a stance somewhere to stop career politicians from blatantly telling lies for their own personal gains, and potentially putting the country and its citizens at risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 I suspected it wasn't politics or economics when you said you voted to leave, Rubes that was said in jest. Thanks for that Palfy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 yeah! Fuck the 81% who couldn't vote or voted remain! Democracy rules! It would be interesting to know what percentage of citizens were simply not allowed to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 Its the way we have always voted. Historically, most people accept the result of an election/referendum (except the EU if it goes against them) Its the same in the US, people complaining about the vote when its the way it has always been done. In the last General Election, SNP got 56 seats for 1.5m votes. UKIP (thank goodness) got 1 seat for 3.9m votes, so there are always anomalies but its the way it has always been done and for a very long time. The electorate also rejected proportional representation. So yes, democracy does rule.if we just roll over and accept results, we're in trouble. Despite the result affecting my life directly, I'm trying to accept it. But with no clear plan coming out and the complete shambles that led up to the vote and since, I've no confidence whatsoever that the people running the country have a fucking clue what to do. I really don't understand Leavers complaining so much about the debate continuing. It's a hugely important topic and was treated as a popularity vote. Neither side made a convincing argument. The people who'll have to live with rhe concequences didn't have a say. The debate will go on do accept that and engage. Side note, if I knew how, I'd fucking sue Cameron and the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 If we don't roll over and don't accept election/referendum results we are in even bigger trouble. That road leads to anarchy. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 If we don't roll over and don't accept election/referendum results we are in even bigger trouble. That road leads to anarchy. only if people don't engage and debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 The assumption is that the engagement and debating was done prior to the election/referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 If we don't roll over and don't accept election/referendum results we are in even bigger trouble. That road leads to anarchy. Anarchy or Theresa May? I'd happily have no government than this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 The assumption is that the engagement and debating was done prior to the election/referendum. But in the case of an election the engagement and debate immediately restarts for the next one after the result, why should a referendum result be any different? You think PR supporters simply shrugged their shoulders and said, "fair enough" after that one? Of course not; it's been said before but if the brexit result had gone the other way would everyone on the out side have become Europhile and UKIP disbanded? I have my doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 But in the case of an election the engagement and debate immediately restarts for the next one after the result, why should a referendum result be any different? You think PR supporters simply shrugged their shoulders and said, "fair enough" after that one? Of course not; it's been said before but if the brexit result had gone the other way would everyone on the out side have become Europhile and UKIP disbanded? I have my doubts. Because elections of governments are ongoing. Referendums tend to be on one-off issues. There is a difference between continuing to debate and actively trying to overturn a democratic vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 The assumption is that the engagement and debating was done prior to the election/referendum.assumption is the mother of all fuck ups mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 Once the outcome of a referendum is determined, then any failure to comply with the will of the people is not democracy; it is dictatorship. Government is (or should be) the servant of the people, not the master. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 Because elections of governments are ongoing. Referendums tend to be on one-off issues. There is a difference between continuing to debate and actively trying to overturn a democratic vote. Once the outcome of a referendum is determined, then any failure to comply with the will of the people is not democracy; it is dictatorship. Government is (or should be) the servant of the people, not the master. Not arguing against the result or saying that it shouldn't be acted upon, which it obviously will be; just saying that people (like me) who disagree with the decision will continue to express their opinion and are fully entitled to. "Let's all hold hands and be friends again" isn't going to happen. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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