Brexit...

[johnh]

Mike, I don't think anyone on here has said you are not entitled to your opinion, or to express it. We are only critical of those who are working hard at overturning a democratic vote.

[MikeO]

Mike, I don't think anyone on here has said you are not entitled to your opinion, or to express it. We are only critical of those who are working hard at overturning a democratic vote.

 

I don't think anyone is seriously thinking they can overturn a democratic (albeit advisory) vote, they're just putting their views out there in a more demonstrative way than me.

[Bailey]

It's not a democracy when the biggest influence was a lie about the NHS.

The media should be fair and punished for such bullshit.

 

Thats not true... and technically it is still a possibility.

 

 

 

It's a tough one to come up with an answer to. Said this before but I'd love to do away with the party system altogether, every constituency should vote on who they think the best man (or woman) for the job is and then every vote in parliament is a free one; none of this "three line whip" bollocks where everyone does as they're told or they get frozen out. PM could be voted for by MPs, it'll never happen but it'd put an end to all the tribal infantile nonsense we are stuck with today.

 

Watching the commons on TV is like watching primary school kids, complete embarrassment. Actually that comparison is unfair on the kids.

 

I find it ridiculous that party leaders can almost force their MPs to vote one way or another and then like Corbyn, sack them from the shadow cabinet when they defy him.

 

MPs should vote as they feel is right based on the information they have without fear of political exile for not doing what they are told. There has never been a great idea that has changed lives for the better that hasn't been challenged in some way.

[holystove]

 

Thats not true... and technically it is still a possibility.

 

 

The director of Vote Leave, Dominic Cummings, has said that given the small margin of victory the NHS-promise probably swayed the result towards leave. Ofcourse we'll never know for certain but IMO the lies (on both sides) were of such magnitude that the final outcome of the referendum was a crapshoot and of little value. Luckily the UK is a representative parliamentary democracy where referenda are only advisable .

 

I don't believe a majority of people would vote for something that would make them poorer in the short term, with the remote possibility of maybe in the long term being as good (or better) off. Leave won because Vote Leave managed to convince a lot of people that it would be in their personal financial interests to do so; 350m for the NHS was quite powerful in that sense.

 

 

MPs should vote as they feel is right based on the information they have without fear of political exile for not doing what they are told. There has never been a great idea that has changed lives for the better that hasn't been challenged in some way.

 

I agree very much with this statement. Although it would have meant the UK would have stayed in the EU seeing how a majority of MPs were for Remain.

[pete0]

 

Thats not true... and technically it is still a possibility.

 

.

So what won it for them? For me there was only four key agendas 1) Racist vote, 2) More wealth lie, although the rich will get richer, 3) NHS lies, 4) Democracy lie

 

Doubtful the shower of shites peddle their lies all the time and then never go through with it.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154972980004709&id=22625199708

[Bailey]

I read a lot, saw a lot and asked a lot of leavers and I haven't heard anyone say that x amount to the NHS was in their tio 5 reasons to leave.

 

I find it strange that remainers hang their hat on it so much, which to me shows how much they miss the point and is probably why the leave vote won. I know us leavers are the uneducated and everything but please give us a bit more credit than that.

 

I think it's been fairly clear that immigration was the main vote winner, rightly or wrongly.

 

I also think that the vote remain campaign was probably vote winner number 2 and I would be very confident that a genuine vote remain campaign would have won the referendum.

 

On that last point I saw question time last night and Owen Smith was again bleating on like the bleeding idiot he is still living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

I found it scary that I actually agreed more with Anne Widdecombe than anyone else. The main point I agreed with and said for some time is that the NHS should be removed from the political merry go round so that it doesn't get messed around every 4 years by the latest government.

[Palfy]

Why did you find it scary that you agreed more with Anne, she after all is a Tory and as a leave voter you towed the Tory line, so therefore you would have a lot in common.

[Matt]

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/

[Bailey]

Why did you find it scary that you agreed more with Anne, she after all is a Tory and as a leave voter you towed the Tory line, so therefore you would have a lot in common.

I generally think she is an idiot.

 

Just because I voted leave doesn't mean I am a Tory voter or agree with the same things that Widdecombe does.

 

With your pigeon holing you sound like Guardian headline writer.

[Palfy]

I'll take that as a compliment, was informed the other day by two posters that the Guardian was a respectable paper with honest journalists.

Don't know what you've been reading a lot of or who your leave friends are, but even those who run the leave campaign have admitted that they lied about the money they were going to put into the NHS, and that that lie played a big part in the vote to leave.

[holystove]

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/

 

in the article there's a link to his full blog .. http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/

 

well worth a read from an interesting brexiteer. he makes clear that for him the end game was for Leave to win, and basically anything to reach that goal was fair play, including lying and misleading the public... after all the other side was doing it too.

 

doesn't really strengthen the argument that describes the referendum result as "will of the people"

[MikeO]

Love the new sig holy.

[Bailey]

I'll take that as a compliment, was informed the other day by two posters that the Guardian was a respectable paper with honest journalists.

Don't know what you've been reading a lot of or who your leave friends are, but even those who run the leave campaign have admitted that they lied about the money they were going to put into the NHS, and that that lie played a big part in the vote to leave.

Guardian writers tar sections of the populace with the same brush and then cry foul when someone does it to them. Ergo leavers are uneducated, racist etc.

 

They can say what they want with their BS surveys that I am sure nobody really takes, at least not outside of London, and obviously I can't speak for the whole of the country but immigration and the perceived negatives of immigration were always high on the list. I haven't seen anyone, anywhere say that they voted leave to give the NHS £350 mil a week.

[Bailey]

Plus no one in leave could even guarentee 350 mil as they weren't the govt in charge and their "battle bus" says "let's fund the NHS instead" or let's spend that money on the NHS.

 

I bet as many people voted to remain as we were at the back of the queue for Obama or more at threat of terrorism by not being in the EU.

 

It's tit for tat on both sides. Instead of going over old ground, if you want to remain then come up with new, honest arguments, new solutions, rather than debating what happened.

[Peter H]

The UK are leaving EU for one reason and one reason only:

The remain side sucked arse in their campaigning.

Lies about the NHS and other things. (EU-laws, straight bananas, laws about pillows and immigration etc) probably did have an effect on how people voted, but only because the remain side let them. (and made up their own lies at the same time)

Lies need to be fought with facts. Remain side did not do that and they lost.

[rubecula]

The UK are leaving EU for one reason and one reason only:

The remain side sucked arse in their campaigning.

 

Lies about the NHS and other things. (EU-laws, straight bananas, laws about pillows and immigration etc) probably did have an effect on how people voted, but only because the remain side let them. (and made up their own lies at the same time)

 

Lies need to be fought with facts. Remain side did not do that and they lost.

 

The reason we are leaving is the remain voters did not win.

 

If they had do any of you think this debate would still be ongoing? My own personal opinion is it would not, simply because the majority of people would have sat down in their comfy slippers and forgot all about it as the status quo would have been accepted.

 

But a good healthy debate is the sign of a healthy democracy, which means I have another reason (albeit a very minor one) to be happy with the result.

 

The big problem I am having with this thread is they way it is now descending into ritual name calling and personal insults.

 

It would be nice if it would return to the matter in hand without such nastiness, after all, we all want what is best for us, the country and our future. We only disagree on how to get these things.

 

I will never say the folks who voted to remain are intellectually challenged, or are all dickheads and knobrots, and it would be nice if the same respect was mutual.

[johnh]

Good post Rubes.

[MikeO]

The reason we are leaving is the remain voters did not win.

 

If they had do any of you think this debate would still be ongoing? My own personal opinion is it would not, simply because the majority of people would have sat down in their comfy slippers and forgot all about it as the status quo would have been accepted.

 

But a good healthy debate is the sign of a healthy democracy, which means I have another reason (albeit a very minor one) to be happy with the result.

 

The big problem I am having with this thread is they way it is now descending into ritual name calling and personal insults.

 

It would be nice if it would return to the matter in hand without such nastiness, after all, we all want what is best for us, the country and our future. We only disagree on how to get these things.

 

I will never say the folks who voted to remain are intellectually challenged, or are all dickheads and knobrots, and it would be nice if the same respect was mutual.

 

Don't think I've called anyone a name or personally insulted anyone (in this thread anyway ). I also disagree with the bit in bold, I want what's best for the planet, not just our little speck on it.

 

And if remain had won I again disagree with you, I think the shouts and complaints would be considerably louder if anything.

[rubecula]

Good post Rubes.

 

Thank you John.

 

Don't think I've called anyone a name or personally insulted anyone (in this thread anyway ). I also disagree with the bit in bold, I want what's best for the planet, not just our little speck on it.

 

And if remain had won I again disagree with you, I think the shouts and complaints would be considerably louder if anything.

Of course Mike, I knew you would. An honest opinion.

[Peter H]

The reason we are leaving is the remain voters did not win.

 

If they had do any of you think this debate would still be ongoing? My own personal opinion is it would not, simply because the majority of people would have sat down in their comfy slippers and forgot all about it as the status quo would have been accepted.

 

But a good healthy debate is the sign of a healthy democracy, which means I have another reason (albeit a very minor one) to be happy with the result.

 

The big problem I am having with this thread is they way it is now descending into ritual name calling and personal insults.

 

It would be nice if it would return to the matter in hand without such nastiness, after all, we all want what is best for us, the country and our future. We only disagree on how to get these things.

 

I will never say the folks who voted to remain are intellectually challenged, or are all dickheads and knobrots, and it would be nice if the same respect was mutual.

You realise that I did not insult anyone in my post huh? (im only asking because you replied to my post)

All I said was that the remain side did a really poor campaign to try to sway the public to their side.

 

Im not saying that the brexit voters are dumb or dickheads or knobrots. They had their reasons, most of which were based on incomplete facts, but its not their fault. If traditional media cant publish responsibly you cant blame their readers for forming an opinion.

 

HOWEVER - there is an alarmingly large amount of "alternative" media created with the sole purpose of forming opinions based on lies, false facts, propaganda and scare mongering. Mostly aimed at problems with immigration etc. These sites are almost always against the EU. Im not saying that the russian government are behind them all but its very coincidental that they almost always share the exact same view as the Russians.

 

Remember, Russia wanted Britain to leave the EU, they also wanted Trump to win. They want Le Pen to win in France and SD to win in Sweden. All are against the EU.

 

Just throwing that out there.

 

 

Again, not calling leave voters for intellectually challenged or dickheads or knobrots. (love that last insult btw)

 

 

[rubecula]

You realise that I did not insult anyone in my post huh? (im only asking because you replied to my post)

All I said was that the remain side did a really poor campaign to try to sway the public to their side.

 

Im not saying that the brexit voters are dumb or dickheads or knobrots. They had their reasons, most of which were based on incomplete facts, but its not their fault. If traditional media cant publish responsibly you cant blame their readers for forming an opinion.

 

HOWEVER - there is an alarmingly large amount of "alternative" media created with the sole purpose of forming opinions based on lies, false facts, propaganda and scare mongering. Mostly aimed at problems with immigration etc. These sites are almost always against the EU. Im not saying that the russian government are behind them all but its very coincidental that they almost always share the exact same view as the Russians.

 

Remember, Russia wanted Britain to leave the EU, they also wanted Trump to win. They want Le Pen to win in France and SD to win in Sweden. All are against the EU.

 

Just throwing that out there.

 

 

Again, not calling leave voters for intellectually challenged or dickheads or knobrots. (love that last insult btw)

 

 

Sorry if you thought I was citing you in that post it was a general comment on the way the thread is developing. Every person I know has an opinion on the thing, and obviously most disagree with each other,

 

Knobrot is my sister's favourite insult when she gets mad, lol I get called it a lot

[Palfy]

Sorry if you thought I was citing you in that post it was a general comment on the way the thread is developing. Every person I know has an opinion on the thing, and obviously most disagree with each other,

 

Knobrot is my sister's favourite insult when she gets mad, lol I get called it a lot

Don't encourage her to post on here mate, cause we're all end up being called knobrots.

[MikeO]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38976087

[Bailey]

That's a prime example of analysis with no actual analysis.

 

If the rise is as a result of Brexit then it would be worrying but other than timing there is nothing else that tells us its Brexit. Who committed the crimes? Who were they against? Etc. Journalists just want the story that fits rather than getting to the heart of the problem. A bit like the referendum itself!

[MikeO]

That's a prime example of analysis with no actual analysis.

 

If the rise is as a result of Brexit then it would be worrying but other than timing there is nothing else that tells us its Brexit. Who committed the crimes? Who were they against? Etc. Journalists just want the story that fits rather than getting to the heart of the problem. A bit like the referendum itself!

 

Coincidence then? You believe that if you want to.

 

It's a prime example of police stats, not journalistic opinion; and there's a huge amount of anecdotal evidence to back it up.

[Palfy]

Can't imagine many of the 14,300 being remain voters, if any at all.

Quite sad really that some have used the Brexit win as a vehicle to try and legitimise their racist believes.

Leave voters believe financially we would be better off trading with the rest of the world, rather than with in E.U, I wonder what these countries that we want trade deals with must be thinking if racism starts getting worse as predicted, and it's national's from their countries that are getting the abuse.

[holystove]

Dept. for Int. Trade ‏@tradegovuk 20 u20 uur geleden

 

 

Meer

UK gov welcomes EU vote to ratify #CETA trade deal with #Canada. Well help British business take advantage of the benefits this will bring

-

This is the official twitter account for the Department for International Trade. It is not some parody account.

(For those not as astonished as I am by this : Liam Fox making the argument for remain ; British business will get little advantage from this deal as in two years time it will no longer apply to the UK).

Edited February 16, 2017 by holystove

[rubecula]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38976087

Makes me feel very sad. It is turning very ugly.

[holystove]

Full speech by Blair:

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/tony-blair-full-speech-on-blocking-brexit-article-50-eu-second-referendum-2017-2

 

It's not gospel, but he makes some very interesting and true points.

[johnh]

Blair is the most detested politician since the second world war, even more than Maggie. Remainers must be dismayed that he is in their camp. Like everything he touches he has a vested interest. With Juncker within shouting distance of retirement, Blair sees an opportunity to succeed him. An ambition he has held for a long time but only if we are still in the EU.