Guest rusty747 Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 we already have that!!! That's what I can't get my head around! Honestly, I wouldn't be so nervous and frustrated if there was an actual plan (on top of the completely bullshit "cases" each party put together to "inform" the public). But there isn't, even the latest "plan" is just a collection of ideas of what they want - that is not a plan! If someone came to me with a proposed project with what they have as benefits for doing what they're doing, I'd dismiss it out of hand and tell them there are no facts, no structure and no risk assessment, no direction to back up approving it; a list of demands is not a proposal for improvement, it's a list of demands and ideas - unless backed up with real analysis. Which we don't have. Not really There is too much interference from EU and control from EU in our day to day laws, way of living. We cannot control our own immigration as an EU member, we are obliged to provide free health care and welfare for other EU citizens who come to UK as economic migrants in many cases. I am not anti immigration or anti welfare but neither am I for open borders and a blank welfare cheque. And that is one area where the EU has failed itself and us, badly. And Merkel and Juncker are more interested in face saving than acknowledging there is a problem and doing something about it imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I think we will just have to agree to differ there. We will find out soon enough for sure but Dyson has just invested £2.5 billion in jobs in post brexit uk and Boeing is moving its European HQ to UK so it seems that big business likes the idea. And I still think that British people voting for a British government to administer the British people is way more preferable than being a part of a Federal United States of Europe. I agree that if a country is not invested in the success of the EU, by all means it should leave. It's why I backed leave before the referendum (see my first post in this thread). I just try to point out the positive aspects of EU membership, something that has been sorely missing in the British public debate. Imo, the fact that a majority backed brexit is mostly a perception problem of what the EU is and does. Secondly, there's many different ways to brexit and the current path chosen is the most destructive one. Many of the positive aspects that the UK could opt into once outside the EU, are already off the table. As I wrote in previous post, on its current path, the UK will be a 'small' and isolated country, which, even outside the EU it doesn't have to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 What about if your main competitor had access to the proposal? I guess that you would be delighted that it was a broad brush proposal and didn't give away any negotiating detail. main competitors do have access to proposals, its tendering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Not really There is too much interference from EU and control from EU in our day to day laws, way of living. We cannot control our own immigration as an EU member, we are obliged to provide free health care and welfare for other EU citizens who come to UK as economic migrants in many cases. I am not anti immigration or anti welfare but neither am I for open borders and a blank welfare cheque. And that is one area where the EU has failed itself and us, badly. And Merkel and Juncker are more interested in face saving than acknowledging there is a problem and doing something about it imho. I don't see the problem with "economic migrants" myself. You live in Dubai because presumably it offers you a better lifestyle. Steve lives in America, Matt lives in Switzerland, my brother lived abroad for many years because it gave him and his a better future, I'd have done the same if it was the best thing for my family in the blink of an eye. Why should Syrians, Afghans, Poles and the rest be denied the opportunity? If you were born into abject poverty in South Sudan or Somalia wouldn't you do anything in your power to improve your life or just doff your cap and say, "I know my place"? I think not. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 main competitors do have access to proposals, its tendering. Eh? I have never come across a tendering process which allowed competitor bodies to see each others bids. I think its known as 'commercial confidentiality'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I think they should bring back National Service. Only if the initial training took people to Jedi level rather than just basic . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Not really There is too much interference from EU and control from EU in our day to day laws, way of living. We cannot control our own immigration as an EU member, we are obliged to provide free health care and welfare for other EU citizens who come to UK as economic migrants in many cases. I am not anti immigration or anti welfare but neither am I for open borders and a blank welfare cheque. And that is one area where the EU has failed itself and us, badly. And Merkel and Juncker are more interested in face saving than acknowledging there is a problem and doing something about it imho. what inference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Eh? I have never come across a tendering process which allowed competitor bodies to see each others bids. I think its known as 'commercial confidentiality'.entities need to know what their competitors are going to offer. Of course there's confidentialitly agreements with the details of the agreements discussed but competition fundementals are well known. This is why you have RFQ and RFI - flush out the general and then intrinsic details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Still waiting for comments on the complete lack of plan going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Not really There is too much interference from EU and control from EU in our day to day laws, way of living. We cannot control our own immigration as an EU member, we are obliged to provide free health care and welfare for other EU citizens who come to UK as economic migrants in many cases. I am not anti immigration or anti welfare but neither am I for open borders and a blank welfare cheque. And that is one area where the EU has failed itself and us, badly. And Merkel and Juncker are more interested in face saving than acknowledging there is a problem and doing something about it imho. Why not campaign for a world wide health service. Make the whole of the EU and other trading nations pay 2% of their nics/social security and have a universal salary to doctors/nurses. One for all, rather than all for none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Still waiting for comments on the complete lack of plan going forward. I assume you will be demanding the EU's detailed plans for Brexit negotiations too? I'm not sure how many times the point has been made on here but you don't declare your hand before negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I assume you will be demanding the EU's detailed plans for Brexit negotiations too? I'm not sure how many times the point has been made on here but you don't declare your hand before negotiations. That's the standard reply to haven't got a fucking clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39133400 Meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 I just try to point out the positive aspects of EU membership, something that has been sorely missing in the British public debate. Imo, the fact that a majority backed brexit is mostly a perception problem of what the EU is and does. That's a bit of an old chestnut, though. The losing party always claims that, if only they could have got their message across better, they would have won. If party can't manage that over several months, then they don't deserve to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 That's a bit of an old chestnut, though. The losing party always claims that, if only they could have got their message across better, they would have won. If party can't manage that over several months, then they don't deserve to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 That's a bit of an old chestnut, though. The losing party always claims that, if only they could have got their message across better, they would have won. If party can't manage that over several months, then they don't deserve to win. Rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39133400 Meaningless in the grand scheme of things. How many times can this bill now be sent back and forth between HoC and Lords? From what I could found out after a quick google, it could be sent back and forth until the end of time ?!? ... you guys could really use a written constitution to clear some of this stuff up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 I assume you will be demanding the EU's detailed plans for Brexit negotiations too? I'm not sure how many times the point has been made on here but you don't declare your hand before negotiations. damn right I would! It's a two sided process, there should be initial discussions and communication from both sides to reassure the public, especially expats who will be directly effected. So far there's nothing more than a wish list and nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 damn right I would! It's a two sided process, there should be initial discussions and communication from both sides to reassure the public, especially expats who will be directly effected. So far there's nothing more than a wish list and nonsense To be fair, I think May has given all the details she can at this stage. From this you can pretty much gather her intent on any other related issue. She wants: - no single market - no customs union - no EURATOM - no immigrants (cap at 100.000) = full break with continent. So if I were an UK immigrant in another country, I'd probably apply for some type of permanent residency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 To be fair, I think May has given all the details she can at this stage. From this you can pretty much gather her intent on any other related issue. She wants: - no single market - no customs union - no EURATOM - no immigrants (cap at 100.000) = full break with continent. So if I were an UK immigrant in another country, I'd probably apply for some type of permanent residency. thats not a list of details though, that's a wish list. Details would be "and this is how we hope to deliver that", not down to dotting i's and crossing t's but at least something. As John correctly pointed out, EU should be doing the same too. I'm trying to push my C permit through asap, despite it meaning I pay more taxes here, because as soon as I'm considered a non-EU citizen I do have to leave my home and apply from outside Switzerland for a new permit - i.e. Lose my job and move back to Liverpool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 thats not a list of details though, that's a wish list. Details would be "and this is how we hope to deliver that", not down to dotting i's and crossing t's but at least something. As John correctly pointed out, EU should be doing the same too. I'm trying to push my C permit through asap, despite it meaning I pay more taxes here, because as soon as I'm considered a non-EU citizen I do have to leave my home and apply from outside Switzerland for a new permit - i.e. Lose my job and move back to Liverpool The fact that the EU is only willing to talk about the Brexit bill before anything else is indeed somewhat absurd; certainly because the number they set is irrationally high. However thanks to May the situation for UK immigrants is, imo, pretty clear. She said no single market and no jurisdiction of the ECJ which means no free movement for EU nationals to UK which means no free movement of UK nationals to EU. She has set out the basic red lines, from there you can figure out the rest. Unless you feel there is still a possibility she will soften. Your case is even more clear. Right now you are in a 3rd country as is your right as an EU citizen. You have no such right as a UK citizen so as soon as you loose EU citizenship, you're in trouble. This is a matter for UK - Switzerland relations, and has little to do with the EU once the UK is out of the EU. I really hope you get your permit asap. It seems like you'll have well over two years to get it though, because there is no way you'll loose your EU citizenship before brexit is completely done and over with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 what inference? Interference, not inference. Such as the number of laws and regulations that are now having to be followed by UK because they are EU law. In other words, if we weren't in EU we wouldn't be bound by so many stupid rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 Why not campaign for a world wide health service. Make the whole of the EU and other trading nations pay 2% of their nics/social security and have a universal salary to doctors/nurses. One for all, rather than all for none. Charity begins at home and one has to be mature enough to balance hypothetical idealism with what can practically be achieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) That's the standard reply to haven't got a fucking clue.And that is the standard reply to 'I'm going to spin everything in line with my own political agenda and beliefs.' I am sure May does have a plan and a negotiating strategy. I would be mightily pissed off if she went public with it now though. It would be like playing a game of poker and letting everyone see your hand - stupid. Edited March 2, 2017 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 That's a bit of an old chestnut, though. The losing party always claims that, if only they could have got their message across better, they would have won. If party can't manage that over several months, then they don't deserve to win. Totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 To be fair, I think May has given all the details she can at this stage. From this you can pretty much gather her intent on any other related issue. She wants: - no single market - no customs union - no EURATOM - no immigrants (cap at 100.000) = full break with continent. So if I were an UK immigrant in another country, I'd probably apply for some type of permanent residency. Totally agree and I think it is the right way to proceed and entirely in accordance with the referendum result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) thats not a list of details though, that's a wish list. Details would be "and this is how we hope to deliver that", not down to dotting i's and crossing t's but at least something. As John correctly pointed out, EU should be doing the same too. I'm trying to push my C permit through asap, despite it meaning I pay more taxes here, because as soon as I'm considered a non-EU citizen I do have to leave my home and apply from outside Switzerland for a new permit - i.e. Lose my job and move back to Liverpool That would be to give away a serious negotiating advantage. We are just going to have to be patient. The government is our elected body and it has been given a mandate to get us out of EU. Now is the time to let our government do just that without trying to tie their hands by declaring to EU exactly what the strategy is.That said, May did try to get a like for like agreement with EU assuring existing Brits in EU countries the same and ongoing rights as EU citizens in UK. You can blame the EU, not May for the current uncertainty over that issue. I do hope you get your situation resolved favourably though - and I am sure you will. Edited March 2, 2017 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 Interference, not inference. Such as the number of laws and regulations that are now having to be followed by UK because they are EU law. In other words, if we weren't in EU we wouldn't be bound by so many stupid rules. Auto-correct at it's finest Stupid rules like safety standards, labour laws, food standards? There are some that don't make sense I guess, but that's true of the UK laws too, and the only argument I can then imagine is "well at least they're our stupid laws". The fact that the EU is only willing to talk about the Brexit bill before anything else is indeed somewhat absurd; certainly because the number they set is irrationally high. However thanks to May the situation for UK immigrants is, imo, pretty clear. She said no single market and no jurisdiction of the ECJ which means no free movement for EU nationals to UK which means no free movement of UK nationals to EU. She has set out the basic red lines, from there you can figure out the rest. Unless you feel there is still a possibility she will soften. Your case is even more clear. Right now you are in a 3rd country as is your right as an EU citizen. You have no such right as a UK citizen so as soon as you loose EU citizenship, you're in trouble. This is a matter for UK - Switzerland relations, and has little to do with the EU once the UK is out of the EU. I really hope you get your permit asap. It seems like you'll have well over two years to get it though, because there is no way you'll loose your EU citizenship before brexit is completely done and over with. Thanks mate. I'm currently talking with HR to help get things moving asap, as the process can take several months, and in my case maybe a bit longer since my wife and daughter are American. Uk - Swiss relations won't be a priority as it's not in the EU either, so my case will be last on the bill. But like you said, and I hope, my permit should be sorted by then and I can work towards my Swiss citizenship. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) That would be to give away a serious negotiating advantage. We are just going to have to be patient. The government is our elected body and it has been given a mandate to get us out of EU. Now is the time to let our government do just that without trying to tie their hands by declaring to EU exactly what the strategy is. That said, May did try to get a like for like agreement with EU assuring existing Brits in EU countries the same and ongoing rights as EU citizens in UK. You can blame the EU, not May for the current uncertainty over that issue. I do hope you get your situation resolved favourably though - and I am sure you will. The elected body which has brought the country to its knees (again) and led by an un-elected hypocrite. Encouraging. Edited March 2, 2017 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) That said, May did try to get a like for like agreement with EU assuring existing Brits in EU countries the same and ongoing rights as EU citizens in UK. You can blame the EU, not May for the current uncertainty over that issue. Well she spoke to Merkel about it and Merkel (as head of state of one MS) said the right of UK citizens to live in Germany is protected by free movement rules that are a basic element of the Single Market. If May then says she wants to quit the Single Market, well then .... I assume Merkel (and the other 26 MS) is waiting on the article 50 notification if it says anything about leaving the Single Market. If it does, the Commission has stated protecting the rights of EU citizens in the UK will be one of the first things that need to be settled and it will present proposals to the MS to that effect. It's important to keep in mind there is right now (IMO) no legal basis for the EU to give citizens of any given third country the right to move freely within EU borders. The EU has limited competences in this and is bound by its Treaties. So you can blame the EU for everything, but in this, as on many other issues you lay at its feet, I think it is incorrect to do so. Edited March 2, 2017 by holystove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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