Brexit...

[MikeO]

Then your educated guess is miles wide of the mark Mike. And I didn't say just petty crime, I included serious crime and murder, the vast majority of which is directly perpetrated by the immigrant population. Sure, there. is the odd local vigilante figure that we could do without, but the vast majority of the crime is unprovoked, pre meditated and carried out by the. Immigrant population. Not all of them, obviously, but you can understand the ill feeling from the locals and the overwhelming brexit vote as a direct consequence.

 

I completely disagree but no point falling out over it and going round in circles. Lincolnshire folk are plainly more peace loving than Devonians.

 

Is that your home patch by the way? Used to have a great aunt lived nearby but I was never taken with the area, too flat .

[Guest rusty747]

Lincolnshire is my home county but I lived about 20 miles north of Boston until I joined the RAF when I was 18. Nowadays, I live/work in Dubai but home is Penang Island, Malaysia. My wife is from Kuala Lumpur and we recently adopted a Malaysian baby. With no close relatives in UK it was an easy decision to agree to retire in Penang. The food is out of this world.

 

Agree that nothing is worth falling out over and I think it is testament to the maturity of the posters that we can obviously have such diverse opinions, yet keep it clean and amicable - a lesson the politicians of all hues might take on board.

[Cornish Steve]

Years ago, we visited friends in Imperial Nebraska. It's quite a remote town - a 75-mile car ride to the nearest big store (a Walmart). When we arrived, our friends asked whether I would step in to help locals with practice night for an upcoming musical since the regular accompanist was sick. I arrived at the local church hall to find about 20 women's handbags right there. No one worried about theft. Later I learned that very few houses in the town had door locks. One evening, we were told by the local police officer that they'd experienced a spike in car thefts. In fact, the number had doubled in the previous year - from 1 to 2. Per capita, they must have been pushing it for car theft capital of the US.

[Guest rusty747]

Years ago, we visited friends in Imperial Nebraska. It's quite a remote town - a 75-mile car ride to the nearest big store (a Walmart). When we arrived, our friends asked whether I would step in to help locals with practice night for an upcoming musical since the regular accompanist was sick. I arrived at the local church hall to find about 20 women's handbags right there. No one worried about theft. Later I learned that very few houses in the town had door locks. One evening, we were told by the local police officer that they'd experienced a spike in car thefts. In fact, the number had doubled in the previous year - from 1 to 2. Per capita, they must have been pushing it for car theft capital of the US.

Yep, you can prove almost anything with statistics. But nobody got killed did they?

[pete0]

At the moment, the UK is guilty by association as it is still, for a while, a member of the EU. I work with many Aussies, Kiwis and Americans and they are almost all in agreement thatwe have done the right thing by leaving EU. So, the EU is definitely a laughing stock, but ask Dyson, Boeing, General Electric what they think of UK's decision to leave EU and they have all put their money where their mouths are and invested heavily in a post brexit UK. The EU is a liberal elitist dictatorship, top heavy with gravy training failed domestic politicians, which is rapidly becoming/has become a Federal State in its own right. That is not what we agreed to join and it is right that we should leave imho.

 

Laws? The ones that force us to declare open borders to all EU citizens so, (for example) Poles can come over, do work at rates that undercut the British worker (race to the bottom anyone?) then send most of their meagre salary back to Poland, thereby driving/holding down UK wages, exporting £ out of the UK,(doing nothing for our domestic markets) increasing the number of British jobless and, in many cases, increasing crime rates and providing a smoke screen for free movement of terrorists. And if they cant get a job, we provide welfare for them that they have not contributed to and which is not matched on any level should a Brit choose to live and work in Poland.

 

So, lets put our own house in order before making grandiose gestures and obligations that we can't afford is my point of view.

 

Caveat: nothing against Poles, just using as an example.

So no to Poles feeding their families. Yes to our Government letting its people be ripped off for essentials like public transport, housing, and utilities and the profits going in the pockets of millionaires.

 

Our utilities are some of the most expensive in the world even though we have one of the biggest resources. We sold it off to the French though rather than improve our own standard of life. Likewise with the trains to the Germans.

 

House prices are ridiculous here because the country is run by landlords and the Russian's and Chinese are having a great time with the 'yield' prospects. A house should be a home, not a financial opportunity.

 

As for the Polish, what jobs are they lowering the wages for as most I know tale minimum wage jobs in factories or restaurants. Other than that there are the Polish labourers who's work ethnic put us to shame, but they get paid the same? As far as I can our government reduced workers rights and encourages zero hour contracts. All I hear about is people struggling to get full time hours.

[pete0]

Charity begins at home and one has to be mature enough to balance hypothetical idealism with what can practically be achieved.

Could have proposed it as a condition of staying in the eu to get the ball rolling. Then extended it to housing, and public transport, and beyond. Look at Sweden, who happily pay more than double what we do in social security.

[johnh]

From 1975 to 1982 I lived in Spalding, Lincolnshire, which is about 12 miles from Boston. I still have friends in Spalding who I speak to on a regular basis and a common theme is 'don't ever come back to live, its not the same place.' They complain about immigrant workers who drink in gangs on the street and seeing someone drunk and flat out on the pavement is a common occurrence. A common complaint is that wherever they congregate to drink is also doubled as a toilet. Having said that, I went into the Spalding newspaper website the other day and clicked on 'crime'. The headline was 'Bicycle stolen in Spalding'.

[MikeO]

From 1975 to 1982 I lived in Spalding, Lincolnshire, which is about 12 miles from Boston. I still have friends in Spalding who I speak to on a regular basis and a common theme is 'don't ever come back to live, its not the same place.' They complain about immigrant workers who drink in gangs on the street and seeing someone drunk and flat out on the pavement is a common occurrence. A common complaint is that wherever they congregate to drink is also doubled as a toilet. Having said that, I went into the Spalding newspaper website the other day and clicked on 'crime'. The headline was 'Bicycle stolen in Spalding'.

 

I think the modern binge drinking/clubbing culture is nothing to do with immigrants personally, it's a UK problem. Few years ago we spent a week-end in Torquay with my mum and made the mistake of going out for a meal on a Friday/Saturday night (don't remember which); absolute nightmare, fights on the street, zero respect for older people. All the people involved were WASP, not a Pole or Pakistani in sight, but we had to run at one stage to keep mum away from it.

[johnh]

It is in Spalding though. Mainly eastern European immigrants.

[Guest rusty747]

Could have proposed it as a condition of staying in the eu to get the ball rolling. Then extended it to housing, and public transport, and beyond. Look at Sweden, who happily pay more than double what we do in social security.

That ball supposedly started rolling over 40 years ago. Doesn't seem to have done much good and that is yet another reason we voted for brexit and are leaving EU. Maybe we could spend some of this extra money on what you suggest? http://www.westmonster.com/45-billion-brexit-budget-boost/

 

Ah yes, Sweden, that will be the country that opened its arms to immigrants and now has the highest rape figures in Europe and second highest in the world.

 

Sweden, that will be the country that only yesterday reintroduced National Service to try and maintain law and order - tactfully disguised as due to heightening tensions with Russia

 

I would also take issue with your statement that Swedes 'happily' pay more than double what we do in social security. I know quite a few Swedes and they are now disgusted at where and how their tax $ are being spent.

 

https://thefederalist.com/2017/03/01/yes-violent-crime-spiked-sweden-since-open-immigration/

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/03/compulsory-11-month-military-service-face-threats-170302104725356.html

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[Guest rusty747]

I think the modern binge drinking/clubbing culture is nothing to do with immigrants personally, it's a UK problem. Few years ago we spent a week-end in Torquay with my mum and made the mistake of going out for a meal on a Friday/Saturday night (don't remember which); absolute nightmare, fights on the street, zero respect for older people. All the people involved were WASP, not a Pole or Pakistani in sight, but we had to run at one stage to keep mum away from it.

I had to look up WASP as I never heard the term before. No argument with the W, but how did you ascertain that they were all anglo saxon protestant as you were busily running away and protecting your Mum?

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[pete0]

That ball supposedly started rolling over 40 years ago. Doesn't seem to have done much good and that is yet another reason we voted for brexit and are leaving EU.

 

Ah yes, Sweden, that will be the country that opened its arms to immigrants and now has the highest rape figures in Europe and second highest in the world.

 

Sweden, that will be the country that only yesterday reintroduced National Service to try and maintain law and order - tactfully disguised as due to heightening tensions with Russia

 

I would also take issue with your statement that Swedes 'happily' pay more than double what we do in social security. I know quite a few Swedes and they are now disgusted at where and how their tax $ are being spent.

 

https://thefederalist.com/2017/03/01/yes-violent-crime-spiked-sweden-since-open-immigration/

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/03/compulsory-11-month-military-service-face-threats-170302104725356.html

I think Peter has already covered the crime issues enough.

 

https://sweden.se/society/why-swedes-are-okay-with-paying-taxes/

On your last point the Swedes happily pay their taxes without a moan. It's even their favourite government department.

[johnh]

I had to look up WASP as I never heard the term before. No argument with the W, but how did you ascertain that they were all anglo saxon protestant as you were busily running away and protecting your Mum?

 

The term WASP originated in America.

[Guest rusty747]

I think Peter has already covered the crime issues enough.

 

https://sweden.se/society/why-swedes-are-okay-with-paying-taxes/

On your last point the Swedes happily pay their taxes without a moan. It's even their favourite government department.

I think Peter has already covered the crime issues enough. https://sweden.se/society/why-swedes-are-okay-with-paying-taxes/

On your last point the Swedes happily pay their taxes without a moan. It's even their favourite government department.

No they don't. I live in Dubai in an estate of various nationalities. There are at least three swedish families within 100 yards of our house and they are all distinctly pissed off at how Sweden is spending tax revenue.

 

National Service now having to be reintroduced, Massive increase in rape, and people try to hold Sweden up as an immigration success story! If that is success, then what are the criteria for failure?

 

Maybe UK can spend some of this £45 billion on improving NHS, benefits for ex sevicemen and women, public services, defence etc. http://www.westmonster.com/45-billion-brexit-budget-boost/

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[holystove]

No they don't. I live in Dubai in an estate of various nationalities. There are at least three swedish families within 100 yards of our house and they are all distinctly pissed off at how Sweden is spending tax revenue.

 

National Service now having to be reintroduced, Massive increase in rape, and people try to hold Sweden up as an immigration success story! If that is success, then what are the criteria for failure?

 

Maybe UK can spend some of this £45 billion on improving NHS, benefits for ex sevicemen and women, public services, defence etc. http://www.westmonster.com/45-billion-brexit-budget-boost/

 

Peter H has already explained the rape thing based on stats rather than based on the opinion of some people he knows (even if he can point to as much as three swedish families as a sample size) ..

 

About the "westmonster" (which is a UKIP website by the way) article:

In the Autumn Statement last November borrowing was projected to be over 230 billion £ between 2016-2017 and 2020-2021. That figure has now been adjusted to a number 45 billion £ lower. That however does not mean you have an extra 45 billion to spend, it just means you have to borrow less.

 

Also, Sweden has the highest tax compliance rate in Europe and that article about reintroducing national service says nothing about it being because of immigrants, nothing.

[Guest rusty747]

Peter H has already explained the rape thing based on stats rather than based on the opinion of some people he knows (even if he can point to as much as three swedish families as a sample size) ..

 

About the "westmonster" (which is a UKIP website by the way) article:

In the Autumn Statement last November borrowing was projected to be over 230 billion £ between 2016-2017 and 2020-2021. That figure has now been adjusted to a number 45 billion £ lower. That however does not mean you have an extra 45 billion to spend, it just means you have to borrow less.

 

Also, Sweden has the highest tax compliance rate in Europe and that article about reintroducing national service says nothing about it being because of immigrants, nothing.

Holy, do you not think you are trying to use selective facts to reinforce a predisposition to a personal agenda/belief rather than discuss with an open mind?

 

Not having a go but you do come across as predisposed to rubbish anything that disagrees with your view on how the world should live.

 

Tax compliance is one thing. Wiilingness/Obligations to pay it and being satisfied with what it is spent on are completely different things aren't they? Please dont confuse compliance with happiness. They are very different animals.

 

The chancellor, thanks to much better than forecast post referendum trade figures, still has £45 billion more room for manoeuvre than he thought he would. You surely can't argue with that can you - no matter how much it doesn't suit your politics? If the borrowing requirement had been £45billion more than forecast I am sure you would have seized on it as an indicator of how post referendum UK is hurting. But that isn't the case is it. We are doing even better than forecast so you try to spin success as failure. It isn't failure. Its success. Sure there is a way to go but at least we are now moving in the right direction - which is more than can be said of EU. Incidentally, latest polls say almost 60% of the Dutch people now favour following UK out of EU.

 

Not looking for a fight but you are not really adressing the points raised.

 

Post Brexit referendum UK is doing far better than all the doom mongers and nay sayers insisted would be the case. Some people are starting to graciously eat the humble pie whilst others are apparently choking on it!

 

Dyson, Boeing, General Electric have all made major investment in a post brexit UK. The future is looking good for UK and I feel more positive about UK now than I can ever really remember in my adult life.

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[EFC-Paul]

Pretty sure people thought the same of planes too.

 

Of course, it wouldn't be easy and there would be many obstacles, but that doesn't you don't bother trying.

Irrelevant Matt different subject different times different perspectives and realities

 

It does mean you don't bother trying, I can't even believe it's been contemplated by anyone tbh

 

Anyway it'll never happen and I doubt anyone with any power would even entertain the idea so it's all a moot debate

[johnh]

Holy, do you not think you are trying to use selective facts to reinforce a predisposition to a personal agenda/belief rather than discuss with an open mind?

 

Not having a go but you do come across as predisposed to rubbish anything that disagrees with your view on how the world should live.

 

Tax compliance is one thing. Wiilingness/Obligations to pay it and being satisfied with what it is spent on are completely different things aren't they?

 

The chancellor, still has £45 billion more room for manoeuvre than he thought he would. You surely can't argue with that can you - no matter how much it doesn't suit your politics?

 

Not looking for a fight but you are not really adressing the points raised.

 

Post Brexit referendum UK is doing far better than all the doom mongers and nay sayers insisted would be the case. Some people are starting to graciously eat the humble pie whilst others are apparently choking on it!

 

Dyson, Boeing, General Electric have all made major investment in a post brexit UK. The future is looking good for UK and I feel more positive about UK now than I can ever really remember in my adult life.

 

Be fair Rusty. You have got to take into account that Belgium is a small country with an economy that is totally dependent on the EU. It is natural that they are all Europhiles. However, it is unfortunate that this seems to preclude any understanding of those of us who are Eurosceptics.

[holystove]

Holy, do you not think you are trying to use selective facts to reinforce a predisposition to a personal agenda/belief rather than discuss with an open mind?

I have in my replies to you never posted anything that I didn't think was factually correct. I haven't critized your preference for brexit, as that is an opinion which you have every right to have. I have disagreed with your assessment of the value of foreigners, of how you describe the EU, etc.. and backed that up with actual facts. I'm actually quite shocked you would describe yourself as open minded.. maybe re-read some of your own posts?

 

I don't think you have presented other facts/analysis, other than conversations with people you know, which could form the basis of a discussion on a certain issue.

 

The chancellor, still has £45 billion more than he thought he would. You surely can't argue with that can you - no matter how much it doesn't suit your politics?

Yes but it's a 45 billion that wasn't there in the first place. If only he had forecast he would have needed 400 billion, then he now would have had an extra 200 billion to spend...

 

Post Brexit referendum UK is doing far better than all the doom mongers and nay sayers insisted would be the case. Some people are starting to graciously eat the humble pie whilst others are apparently choking on it!

 

I don't see how any rational human being would want the UK to fail post-brexit. I certainly don't. But that doesn't mean everyone has to just agree with the current path to brexit this government has chosen. I'm also still convinced that if May keeps her current hard stance, brexit will a failure.

Edited March 3, 2017 by holystove

[holystove]

 

Be fair Rusty. You have got to take into account that Belgium is a small country with an economy that is totally dependent on the EU. It is natural that they are all Europhiles. However, it is unfortunate that this seems to preclude any understanding of those of us who are Eurosceptics.

 

Every country in the EU has an economy that has benefited from the single market. Belgium has a very open economy so I would assume we, indeed, aren't about to shoot ourselves in the foot by leaving it.

 

I understand British euroscepticism and it's why I was hoping for Leave to win. I have only replied to his statements I thought to be factually incorrect. Can you be a Euroscpetic without comparing the EU to Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, ..?

[Guest rusty747]

Be fair Rusty. You have got to take into account that Belgium is a small country with an economy that is totally dependent on the EU. It is natural that they are all Europhiles. However, it is unfortunate that this seems to preclude any understanding of those of us who are Eurosceptics.

Fair point John. Have they managed to establish where the HQ of EU actually is yet or does it still keep shuttling back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg (at enormous waste and expense) every month?

[Guest rusty747]

Every country in the EU has an economy that has benefited from the single market. Belgium has a very open economy so I would assume we, indeed, aren't about to shoot ourselves in the foot by leaving it.

 

I understand British euroscepticism and it's why I was hoping for Leave to win. I have only replied to his statements I thought to be factually incorrect. Can you be a Euroscpetic without comparing the EU to Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, ..?

That depends. Criticism of EU political institutions s/has been enshrined as breaking EU law. haven't really seen that in western europe since 1933.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1325398/Euro-court-outlaws-criticism-of-EU.html

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[Guest rusty747]

I have in my replies to you never posted anything that I didn't think was factually correct. I haven't critized your preference for brexit, as that is an opinion which you have every right to have. I have disagreed with your assessment of the value of foreigners, of how you describe the EU, etc.. and backed that up with actual facts.

 

I don't think you have presented other facts/analysis, other than conversations with people you know, which could form the basis of a discussion on a certain issue.

 

 

Yes but it's a 45 billion that wasn't there in the first place. If only he had forecast he would have needed 400 billion, then he now would have had an extra 200 billion to spend...

 

 

 

I don't see how any rational human being would want the UK to fail post-brexit. I certainly don't. But that doesn't mean everyone has to just agree with the current path to brexit this government has chosen. I'm also still convinced that if May keeps her current hard stance, brexit will a failure.

Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion but my opinion is that you are very wrong and that the harder the brexit is, the better it will be for UK.

 

We can then deal bilaterally with all other non eu countries - including those that are likely to follow UK out of EU.

 

Juncker would be well advised to concentrate on restructuring the EU to try to persuade other nations to remain, rather than beat his chest and talk about expensive divorce bills.

 

The reality is just starting to hit home in EU. Brexit will hurt EU and be very good for UK.

[holystove]

That depends. Criticism of EU is/has been enshrined as breaking EU law. haven't really seen that in western europe since 1933.

 

what?

[Guest rusty747]

what?

Suppression of free speech - specifically the right to criticise the controlling political institutions of the eu.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1325398/Euro-court-outlaws-criticism-of-EU.html

 

I fully understand Belgium's keenness to remain in EU. The HQ is there (for three weeks each month anyway) and, as a small country it should benefit from economies of scale generated by the monolith that the EU is. However, when you dig deeper you rapidly realise that this happy state depends on continuing very large membership fees from the bigger countries -UK, Germany, France, mainly. Now that UK will no longer be contributing there is going to be some serious belt tightening required within EU and that may well start to have consequences for Belgium and others.

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[Matt]

Irrelevant Matt different subject different times different perspectives and realities

 

It does mean you don't bother trying, I can't even believe it's been contemplated by anyone tbh

 

Anyway it'll never happen and I doubt anyone with any power would even entertain the idea so it's all a moot debate

same principle - it's a pipe dream. But the point is you try.

[holystove]

Suppression of free speech - specifically the right to criticise the controlling political institutions of the eu.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1325398/Euro-court-outlaws-criticism-of-EU.html

 

Rusty, that article is about an EU employee who was dismissed because he desribed the EU in a way that a court of law found to be "aggressive, derogatory and insulting". Nothing is stopping him from continuing to express that sentiment as a private citizen. Surely you can't go from that to nazi germany

 

If I used the same logic, what should I deduce from the fact that Liam Fox demands that government contractors first express their love for Brexit before being granted a contract? (http://www.cityam.com/260125/liam-fox-facing-questions-over-demands-government)...

 

 

Regarding the EU, I truely believe you are very opinionated on an issue you know very little about, but I respect your passion.

[pete0]

No they don't. I live in Dubai in an estate of various nationalities. There are at least three swedish families within 100 yards of our house and they are all distinctly pissed off at how Sweden is spending tax revenue.

 

National Service now having to be reintroduced, Massive increase in rape, and people try to hold Sweden up as an immigration success story! If that is success, then what are the criteria for failure?

 

Maybe UK can spend some of this £45 billion on improving NHS, benefits for ex sevicemen and women, public services, defence etc. http://www.westmonster.com/45-billion-brexit-budget-boost/

That's why they live in Dubai. I don't personally know many Swedes. However have friends in the science industry who travel there and say the Swedish brag about their welfare, and they'd happily pay more into the system.

 

Immigration has already been covered by Peter H. Likewise Matt or Holystove have already put stats up showing foreigners put more money in the UK through tax than they take out in welfare.

 

Can't use the NHS argument when the government in charge of the plans are against public ownership.

[Guest rusty747]

Rusty, that article is about an EU employee who was dismissed because he desribed the EU in a way that a court of law found to be "aggressive, derogatory and insulting". Nothing is stopping him from continuing to express that sentiment as a private citizen. Surely you can't go from that to nazi germany

 

If I used the same logic, what should I deduce from the fact that Liam Fox demands that government contractors first express their love for Brexit before being granted a contract? (http://www.cityam.com/260125/liam-fox-facing-questions-over-demands-government)...

 

 

Regarding the EU, I truely believe you are very opinionated on an issue you know very little about, but I respect your passion.

You obviously dont understand how that ruling rode roughshod over UK Common Law which goes all the way back to the magna carta.

 

I do have an opinion on EU (not Europe) that is less than positive, that is true but my 'passion' is not utilised in being anti EU; rather it is utilised in being pro UK. If the EU had been good for UK then the two could have been achieved together. But the EU is not good for the UK so my passion for UK means that I do think we are better off (much better off) on our own.

I think where some people get confused is in the difference in definitions of a nationalist and a patriot. A patriot loves his country whereas a nationalist hates every other country - all, only in my opinion of course.

 

I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and that will start to become very clear over the next two years. I, for one, am really looking forward to the Brexit process taking firm shape.

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[Guest rusty747]

That's why they live in Dubai. I don't personally know many Swedes. However have friends in the science industry who travel there and say the Swedish brag about their welfare, and they'd happily pay more into the system.

Immigration has already been covered by Peter H. Likewise Matt or Holystove have already put stats up showing foreigners put more money in the UK through tax than they take out in welfare.

Can't use the NHS argument when the government in charge of the plans are against public ownership.

Is it? I never asked them. When did you speak to them?

 

I can tell you that they are truly disgusted with how their government is spending tax revenue and with the breakdown of law and order in their home country. To the extent that extended family are leaving Sweden without a job to come and live with them here.

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747