Brexit...

[markjazzbassist]

honest question for Rusty and Cornish - Why haven't you become a citizen of the country you permanently live in?

 

just interested to hear the answers so I can better understand the residency/citizen/expat thing more.

[pete0]

See explanation above for the hard of thinking or shit stirrers.

 

Seripusly guys, you really have no understanding of how the world works if you expect anything other than the honest reply I gave you.

 

Of course I wish UAE had a better human rights record but realistically what do you expect me to do about it.

 

They do look after their own citizens and I applaud that. If that is being selfish then I wish the UK was a bit more selfish in that regard too.

It's hard to think anyone could be so tribal. The world is small, we should treat everyone as our own.

[Guest rusty747]

In my case I am resident in UAE on an employment visa and residency is conditional on keeping the job. We intend to retire permanently to Malaysia as my wife is Malaysian.

 

As my wife is Malaysian I can apply for Malaysian PR (Permanent Resident - not citizen) if I wish but I have to be physically resident in Malaysia for 5 years to do that. As we are currently living and working in Dubai that will have to wait.

 

As far as applying for Malaysian citizenship is concerned, well the UK is happy with dual nationality but Malaysia is not. If you hold a Malaysian passport you are only allowed the one citizenship.

 

I feel that I am, and always will be, British and I am not prepared to give up British citizenship to become a Malaysian - though I would take dual nationality if it were ever to become an option.

 

You may as well ask all the Poles, French, Germans living in UK why they haven't applied for British citizenship. The answers might be interesting.

[Guest rusty747]

It's hard to think anyone could be so tribal. The world is small, we should treat everyone as our own.

Well now we get down to the old chestnut of theoretical idealism versus what is practically achievable. I live in the real world and make it work for me and others as best I can. That is not being selfish, it is being realistic.

 

I applaud your sentiments but you remind me of the old Blackadder sketch from the RFC in WW1.

 

CO 'We need a volunteer for a futile gesture'

 

PeteO. 'Me Sir, Me Sir, I would like to volunteer for a futile gesture'

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[Matt]

If you will employ me on better terms and conditions than I am currently on then I might just be persuaded to come back.

 

but immigrants think the same, soooooo.....

[pete0]

You may as well ask all the Poles, French, Germans living in UK why they haven't applied for British citizenship. The answers might be interesting.

Because they didn't have to until now. One colleague who has started a go fund me page for his friends to help him stay in the country. Look at the grief this is causing Matt. It's a major step backwards from humanity.

[Guest rusty747]

but immigrants think the same, soooooo.....

No problem with that, but the rest of the criteria has to be applied too. I have worked in Brunei, Singapore and UAE and in each country had to prove that I was being recruited to carry out a job which could not be carried out by a local. I would suggest that is not the case with the average immigrant agricultural worker in Boston.

 

But if there really are no appropriately qualified British workers then by all means recruit from another country. Not restricted to EU but any country in the world. Isn't that a better, fairer way to do business?

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[Palfy]

I don't act like I do live in UK. I act like any pther concerned British citizen. And it seems you need to look at the diffetence between residency and citizenship. You would appear to try to deny me rights that have been enshrined in citizenship since magna carta.

Thank you for agreeing that I have done whats best for my family but when you say it is time for me to let go, I think you are talking out of your arse, to be honest.

No matter where I live I will be a British cotizen with the right to express my point of view on anything to do with my country and I will not let the likes of you take that away from me.

Crystal?

Yes crystal clear cake and eat it comes to mind, still not interested in your opinion due to the fact that your opinion was not a vote and had know impact on the referendum.

Your so patriotic and British my arse, your country the one you've done nothing for for years yet you want to have the same rights as me get fucked

CLEAR

[Guest rusty747]

Because they didn't have to until now. One colleague who has started a go fund me page for his friends to help him stay in the country. Look at the grief this is causing Matt. It's a major step backwards from humanity.

That people in the UK and wider EU are in that situation is entirely the fault of the EU.

 

PM May offered ahead of Brexit talks to guarantee the rights of all EU citizens in UK if EU would reciprocate for all UK citizens in EU. The EU refused.

 

So I agree that people have every right to be concerned and angry but please direct the anger at the cause of the problem - the EU.

[Guest rusty747]

Yes crystal clear cake and eat it comes to mind, still not interested in your opinion due to the fact that your opinion was not a vote and had know impact on the referendum.

Your so patriotic and British my arse, your country the one you've done nothing for for years yet you want to have the same rights as me get fucked

CLEAR

My dear chap, I dont need to want to have the same rights as you. I already have the same rights as you. Didn't you understand the explanations above? And I convinced over a dozen fence sitters to vote Leave, so not a bad effort I would say. They have all subsequently agreed it was the right decision.

 

Descending into foul and abusive language does nothing to further either your case or your personal reputation.

 

If all you can do is spout ignorant vitriol then you undermine your own point of view.

 

I'll debate anything politely and passionately with anyone, but you are a disgrace to bring language like that to this forum.

 

Mods?

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[MikeO]

I meant exactly what I said, not what your contentious interpretation is.

 

The UAE does have a bad human rights record.

 

Separately, they do look after their own citizens first. I have no issue with that at all but please do not try to link the two. That is just shot stirring.

 

I don't see how you can separate the two myself so I don't see how my interpretation is contentious.

 

You are saying, as I understand it, that human rights violations are wrong but at the same time the people perpetrating those violations are OK because they look after their own people (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Just don't get it.

[Palfy]

My dear chap, I dont need to want to have the same rights as you. I already have the same rights as you. Didn't you understand the explanations above? And I convinced over a dozen fence sitters to vote Leave, so not a bad effort I would say. They have all subsequently agreed it was the right decision.

Descending into foul and abusive language does nothing to further either your case or your personal reputation.

If all you can do is spout ignorant vitriol then you undermine your own point of view.

I'll debate anything politely and passionately with anyone, but you are a disgrace to bring language like that to this forum.

Mods?

Oh now you were a leave campaigner as well giving fence sitters your insightful knowledge and convincing them to vote leave, is there no end to your talent.

[Matt]

No problem with that, but the rest of the criteria has to be applied too. I have worked in Brunei, Singapore and UAE and in each country had to prove that I was being recruited to carry out a job which could not be carried out by a local. I would suggest that is not the case with the average immigrant agricultural worker in Boston.

i live in a country that "applies" the same law; hire local. Except it doesn't because the skill set isn't there to do it so they look elsewhere. Same as the UK, demand high and either people weren't available (lack of educated possibilities, people left for other countries with better offers, etc) and so countries opened their borders to fill the need.

 

The system is the issue, not immigratation, and turnover is over 10-15 year loops. Immigrants are blamed for the problems created by our governments over the last 20-30 years and not the root cause.

 

There will be some that benefit, from the labour/trade jobs and some who still can't be arsed getting themselves off the couch. As for medical services etc, there aren't enough candidates internally because it's been made an unrealistic career due to high loans, low pay, long hours.

 

The Tories are to blame for creating the desperation of the situation, specifically the working class, and Labour are to blame for not fixing it. Yet these are the people who we now how to fix things. I just don't get it

Edited March 3, 2017 by Matt

[MikeO]

My dear chap, I dont need to want to have the same rights as you. I already have the same rights as you. Didn't you understand the explanations above? And I convinced over a dozen fence sitters to vote Leave, so not a bad effort I would say. They have all subsequently agreed it was the right decision.

 

Descending into foul and abusive language does nothing to further either your case or your personal reputation.

 

If all you can do is spout ignorant vitriol then you undermine your own point of view.

 

I'll debate anything politely and passionately with anyone, but you are a disgrace to bring language like that to this forum.

 

Mods?

 

Fair enough, calm your comments down Palfy, no need for insults here.

 

I know it's emotive but keep it respectful.

[Guest rusty747]

Oh now you were a leave campaigner as well giving fence sitters your insightful knowledge and convincing them to vote leave, is there no end to your talent.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I was a campaigner (it would have been much more than a round dozen if I was) but when I was asked my opinion I gave it with reasons. These reasons were considered and resulted in 12 Leave votes.

 

Its called debate, discussion and democracy and resulted in us leaving the EU.

 

It would be far better if we worked together to make a success of Brexit. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many who voted Remain can now see the benefits of Brexit and are eating humble pie graciously. It appears to be choking you.

[Guest rusty747]

i live in a country that "applies" the same law; hire local. Except it doesn't because the skill set isn't there to do it so they look elsewhere. Same as the UK, demand high and either people weren't available (lack of educated possibilities, people left for other countries with better offers, etc) and so countries opened their borders to fill the need.

The system is the issue, not immigratation, and turnover is over 10-15 year loops. Immigrants are blamed for the problems created by our governments over the last 20-30 years and not the root cause.

There will be some that benefit, from the labour/trade jobs and some who still can't be arsed getting themselves off the couch. As for medical services etc, there aren't enough candidates internally because it's been made an unrealistic career due to high loans, low pay, long hours.

The Tories are to blame for creating the desperation of the situation, specifically the working class, and Labour are to blame for not fixing it. Yet these are the people who we now how to fix things. I just don't get it

I think I was adding to the post you replied to before I posted the edit/addition.

 

Yes, there is no single cause but when it comes to jobs, I agree that if there are no qualified locals we should look outside the UK, not just within EU but globally and recruit the best and the brightest.

Internally, the UK could have been better served by a succession of governments of all persuasions but we are where we are and the first step to fixing things imho is to make a success of Brexit.

Edited March 3, 2017 by rusty747

[Palfy]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I was a campaigner (it would have been much more than a round dozen if I was) but when I was asked my opinion I gave it with reasons. These reasons were considered and resulted in 12 Leave votes.

Its called debate, discussion and democracy and resulted in us leaving the EU.

It would be far better if we worked together to make a success of Brexit. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many who voted Remain can now see the benefits of Brexit and are eating humble pie graciously. It appears to be choking you.

You never had a vote yet your a winner and I'm a humble loser, I genuinely can't believe anyone would take advice from you, your a pompous fool.

[Guest rusty747]

Its up to you whether not you choose to think of yourself as a loser or not. I would not have called you a loser but its your choice.

 

I may not have had a vote this time but PM May has kindly assured me and other expats in my situation that we will be getting it back so thats also good news.

 

As far as the childish name calling goes - well it still does nothing for your cause or your personal reputation. I hope genuinely that you get over it and that we can all go forward together and make a success of Brexit. But that is up to you.

 

Good luck with that.

Edited March 4, 2017 by rusty747

[holystove]

Childish name calling.....

 

You didnt call him a loser but you did call him a supporter of a failed, corrupted, nazi dictatorship.

 

Anyway, I do wonder about these benefits of brexit we're supposed to be seeing. Would those few companies you mentioned not have invested in the UK without brexit? Arent they saying they invest because they dont fear brexit..

Edited March 3, 2017 by holystove

[Matt]

I think I was adding to the post you replied to before I posted the edit/addition.

 

Yes, there is no single cause but when it comes to jobs, I agree that if there are no qualified locals we should look outside the UK, not just within EU but globally and recruit the best and the brightest.

Internally, the UK could have been better served by a succession of governments of all persuasions but we are where we are and the first step to fixing things imho is to make a success of Brexit.

cant argue with that much. Just scared by the fact that the corrupt clown in charge are threating my way of life and country and i believe that having a more wider governess is better than leaving the fucknuts that have led to this. As for outside the EU, how many are pissed of with the services we get, eg banking. So much customer support has been outsourced to India but some want it closer to home.

[Cornish Steve]

honest question for Rusty and Cornish - Why haven't you become a citizen of the country you permanently live in?

 

just interested to hear the answers so I can better understand the residency/citizen/expat thing more.

 

For sure, I'm eligible to become a dual citizen; however, as a matter of personal conviction, I will never swear allegiance to a flag. I'm proud of my Cornish roots - which is more a psychological thing. You have to want to change citizenship, and I've never wanted to.

 

What would you do if the situation were reversed? If you were working in Britain for an extended period of time, would you feel obliged to become a British citizen and then be forced to travel with your British passport?

Edited March 4, 2017 by Cornish Steve

[Guest rusty747]

Childish name calling.....

You didnt call him a loser but you did call him a supporter of a failed, corrupted, nazi dictatorship.

Anyway, I do wonder about these benefits of brexit we're supposed to be seeing. Would those few companies you mentioned not have invested in the UK without brexit? Arent they saying they invest because they dont fear brexit..

Well you see, this is where the argument has to evolve to be mature enough to rise above personal agendas.

 

For example, Dyson, GE, Boeing invest heavily in post Brexit UK. Leavers say, see, its a success, Remainers say, well they would have done it anyway.

 

The fact of the matter is that UK trading figures are doing far better than EU trading figures post referendum and far better than all the doom merchants predicted. We will just have to wait and see if that continues. I am confident that it will.

 

Childish name calling riposte; I think you are trying to put words into my mouth. The EU ECJ issued a ruling that could be used to suppress criticism of EU Institutions. That is suppression of free speech and was last seen in western europe in 1933. That is a fact. My comments were directed at, and were about, the EU, not an individual.

Edited March 4, 2017 by rusty747

[Palfy]

I have relatives in Canada four who were born here the others born there, only one still has dual citizenship my Aunt, my two cousins and uncle became Canadians after fourteen years, they don't hide that they were born in Britain, in fact there proud of it, but the reality is they are living their lives in a Canada and not Britain and no longer have a meaningful stake in their mother country, my Aunt in her eighties now never took full Canadian citizenship more out of fear just in case I need to gan yerm hiney would be her saying.

My problem with a lot of Brits abroad and particularly those who have been away from here for many years and have no real plans to return, and to be honest I loathe to call them British even though they carry a passport purporting there British, is that they seem to think they are more British than the people who live here, and talk about being British as being some sort of trophy or badge of honour, when really they are doing a disservice to the countries they now call home.

To be honest I would much rather give more rights to a Polish national who has worked here for six or seven years bought a house and is trying to secure citizenship, to me there more British than the likes of Rusty who hasn't lived here for twenty one years and has no plans to return how can that be right, then to top it off they want a say in what happens here on a day to day basis, yet they don't live here or contribute to the society but want to tell those who do how to do it, that is why their opinions to me are irrelevant if your not living your life's in this country then as happened you have no say in what happens in this country.

[Guest rusty747]

cant argue with that much. Just scared by the fact that the corrupt clown in charge are threating my way of life and country and i believe that having a more wider governess is better than leaving the fucknuts that have led to this. As for outside the EU, how many are pissed of with the services we get, eg banking. So much customer support has been outsourced to India but some want it closer to home.

I confess I am not entirely au fait with your circumstances Matt. But PM May did offer reciprocal rights immediately for EU citizens in UK if EU would do likewise for UK citizens in EU. The EU refused.

 

I can understand the worry and uncertainty that this EU decision has caused many EU citizens but it has to be sorted out sensibly - though I acknowledge that is of little comfort to you right now.

Edited March 4, 2017 by rusty747

[Guest rusty747]

I have relatives in Canada four who were born here the others born there, only one still has dual citizenship my Aunt, my two cousins and uncle became Canadians after fourteen years, they don't hide that they were born in Britain, in fact there proud of it, but the reality is they are living their lives in a Canada and not Britain and no longer have a meaningful stake in their mother country, my Aunt in her eighties now never took full Canadian citizenship more out of fear just in case I need to gan yerm hiney would be her saying.

My problem with a lot of Brits abroad and particularly those who have been away from here for many years and have no real plans to return, and to be honest I loathe to call them British even though they carry a passport purporting there British, is that they seem to think they are more British than the people who live here, and talk about being British as being some sort of trophy or badge of honour, when really they are doing a disservice to the countries they now call home.

To be honest I would much rather give more rights to a Polish national who has worked here for six or seven years bought a house and is trying to secure citizenship, to me there more British than the likes of Rusty who hasn't lived here for twenty one years and has no plans to return how can that be right, then to top it off they want a say in what happens here on a day to day basis, yet they don't live here or contribute to the society but want to tell those who do how to do it, that is why their opinions to me are irrelevant if your not living your life's in this country then as happened you have no say in what happens in this country.

I dont really know where to begin with a reply to this. There is so much material to work with.

 

The big issue is always citizenship. A British citizen is a British citizen no matter where in the world he may live and he always has British citizenship rights. We understand your personal feelings on the matter Palfy but they are unconstitutional. If you dont like the British constitution perhaps it should be you who considers getting another passport.

 

I dont consider myself more or less British than any other British citizen, but I am and will remain, proud to be British.

 

If British citizens leave UK because of economic opportunity, that is a business decision not a citizenship decision they have made. In many cases, the rewards of their overseas employment filter back to UK in greater amounts than any UK tax levy would have realised.

 

I have contributed almost 40 years of National Insurance contributions, 16 years of income tax and 12 years of my life to the British military. You have no idea what personal and business/financial connections I still maintain within UK, yet you feel you have the right to be judge and jury on who should and should not retain British citizenship. Its unconstitutional Palfy and that sort of thinking is only going to give you ulcers.

Edited March 4, 2017 by rusty747

[Matt]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39154218

[Guest rusty747]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39154218

Pre divorce posturing, but an interesting point.

 

I think EU is slowly realising that it needs UK a whole lot more than UK needs EU. There is even talk of USA taking associate membership of the Commonwealth and forming a Commonwealth Free Trade Association.

 

Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/02/23/united-states-join-commonwealth-associate-member/

Edited March 4, 2017 by rusty747

[johnh]

cant argue with that much. Just scared by the fact that the corrupt clown in charge are threating my way of life and country and i believe that having a more wider governess is better than leaving the fucknuts that have led to this. As for outside the EU, how many are pissed of with the services we get, eg banking. So much customer support has been outsourced to India but some want it closer to home.

 

Matt, I thought you lived in Switzerland which is not part of the EU so am not sure how Brexit issues threaten your way of life? I think you should be thankful that you are not in an EU country as the Liberal elite in the Lords has just hung British expats in EU countries out to dry.

[Guest rusty747]

Matt, I thought you lived in Switzerland which is not part of the EU so am not sure how Brexit issues threaten your way of life? I think you should be thankful that you are not in an EU country as the Liberal elite in the Lords has just hung British expats in EU countries out to dry.

Have they actually done that or is it just pre divorce posturing?

[Matt]

 

Matt, I thought you lived in Switzerland which is not part of the EU so am not sure how Brexit issues threaten your way of life? I think you should be thankful that you are not in an EU country as the Liberal elite in the Lords has just hung British expats in EU countries out to dry.

i can live in Switzerland because I'm an EU citizen, making my permit a lot more simple. If I was non-EU, getting a job here is massively more complicated and permanent residency is very difficult to get - things I need and want.

 

I have nothing to be grateful for with Brexit. At all.