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Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
      26
    • Leave
      24


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2 hours ago, Matt said:

 

Great article just waiting for John and Rubes to shout project fear just like the pompous idiots they believed in, as they are followers of stats how can they possibly argue they were right when the facts clearly prove they are wrong, unless of course the harbour another agenda. 

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5 hours ago, Palfy said:

Great article just waiting for John and Rubes to shout project fear just like the pompous idiots they believed in, as they are followers of stats how can they possibly argue they were right when the facts clearly prove they are wrong, unless of course the harbour another agenda. 

Anyone who voted leave was going on opinion, not facts. It’s just a shame either campaign actually bothered to show any prior to the referendum 

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21 minutes ago, Matt said:

Anyone who voted leave was going on opinion, not facts. It’s just a shame either campaign actually bothered to show any prior to the referendum 

I can respect (though fundamentally disagree with) anyone who voted out because they wanted our "independence" back despite the financial consequences. My vote to stay had nothing to do with money, it was purely about keeping barriers down rather than (re)building them. If staying in would've made me poorer I'd still have voted for it.

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Just now, Matt said:

Anyone who voted leave was going on opinion, not facts. It’s just a shame either campaign actually bothered to show any prior to the referendum 

But now we have more of an idea of what the true Brexit is going to look like, it shouldn't be left to a few hundred to decide whether we no deal no Brexit or except the deal it should be made by the millions, there should be a vote with 3 options with Brexit and no deal, Brexit with the PMs deal or no Brexit.

I think remain campaigners did highlight things that have happened as the article says, but Brexiteers and the right wing press condemned the truth as project fear without counter arguments, and a big proportion of the population supported them because it gave them the opportunity to hide there prejudices yet push them through.

Now these type of people won't change their vote but the ones who genuinely voted out because they were tricked into believing we would be better off are the ones who want the right to right a wrong and why shouldn't they, now the only voters who would object to this are the Brexiteers with the prejudices.

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5 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

The only way I would change my vote if it guaranteed the protection of the NHS from becoming a private healthcare company. That's it.

You mean the Tory’s or the EU? Either way, one won’t and the other can’t. 

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On 01/12/2018 at 11:47, Palfy said:

Great article just waiting for John and Rubes to shout project fear just like the pompous idiots they believed in, as they are followers of stats how can they possibly argue they were right when the facts clearly prove they are wrong, unless of course the harbour another agenda. 

Palfy,  if the Governor of the Bank of England can get it so wrong, why would I be interested in what a celebrity thinks?

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8 minutes ago, johnh said:

Palfy,  if the Governor of the Bank of England can get it so wrong, why would I be interested in what a celebrity thinks?

It’s not what he thinks, he’s just presenting facts. 

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

You mean the Tory’s or the EU? Either way, one won’t and the other can’t. 

I didn’t mean anyone. Just exactly what I said.

So I wouldn’t change my vote if given another opportunity. 

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Just now, Romey 1878 said:

I didn’t mean anyone. Just exactly what I said.

So I wouldn’t change my vote if given another opportunity. 

Fair enough. Never really understood your reasoning on the whole thing anyway :lol: 

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6 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I didn’t mean anyone. Just exactly what I said.

So I wouldn’t change my vote if given another opportunity. 

How would remaining in the EU have threatened the NHS? The reverse would seem more likely (unless you believe UKIP).

 https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-nhs-destroy-how-healthcare-donald-trump-eu-withdrawal-bill-funding-crisis-money-budget-a8194751.html

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13 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I wasn’t saying they would for a start. 

The inference from your post...

"The only way I would change my vote if it guaranteed the protection of the NHS from becoming a private healthcare company."

...suggests that you think remaining would somehow have put the NHS at risk. I can't see why. The only risk to the NHS is the Conservative party in my opinion.

Did the brexit camp mention the future of the NHS at any point? I must've missed it (oh, apart from the lie on the bus).

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3 minutes ago, MikeO said:

The inference from your post...

"The only way I would change my vote if it guaranteed the protection of the NHS from becoming a private healthcare company."

...suggests that you think remaining would somehow have put the NHS at risk. I can't see why. The only risk to the NHS is the Conservative party in my opinion.

Did the brexit camp mention the future of the NHS at any point? I must've missed it (oh, apart from the lie on the bus).

Well that’s not what I meant. 

I meant that if staying would protect the NHS I would change my vote. But it won’t because the Conservatives will not be out of power for a very long time. 

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2 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Well that’s not what I meant. 

I meant that if staying would protect the NHS I would change my vote. But it won’t because the Conservatives will not be out of power for a very long time. 

Fair enough, I think (hope) you overestimate the tory's longevity though.

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Fair enough, I think (hope) you overestimate the tory's longevity though.

There won’t be enough people that will vote Labour while Corbyn is leader. Until he’s replaced they’ve got zero chance, and he looks to have a stranglehold on it. 

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

Palfy,  if the Governor of the Bank of England can get it so wrong, why would I be interested in what a celebrity thinks?

He was the narrator not the writer I understand why you don't like it or want to believe it it's very damming isn'ttt it, not something to be proud of or to be associated with, luckily you won't have to carry the burden our children and grandchildren will do that for you ?

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18 hours ago, Palfy said:

He was the narrator not the writer I understand why you don't like it or want to believe it it's very damming isn'tttt it, not something to be proud of or to be associated with, luckily you won't have to carry the burden our children and grandchildren will do that for you ?

Palfy,  its not a question of 'not wanting to believe it',  like most things from 'Remain' it falls into the category of propaganda.  Unfortunately for remain,  the selection of the presenter was poor.  Using a celebrity just tells us that remain were more concerned about the 'presentation' than the message.  To clarify my position,  I have no interest in anything put out by remainers.  I thought hard about my decision, voted leave, and would vote leave again.  We won and all I am interested in now, is getting out as soon as possible.

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2 minutes ago, johnh said:

Palfy,  its not a question of 'not wanting to believe it',  like most things from 'Remain' it falls into the category of propaganda.  Unfortunately for remain,  the selection of the presenter was poor.  Using a celebrity just tells us that remain were more concerned about the 'presentation' than the message.  To clarify my position,  I have no interest in anything put out by remainers.  I thought hard about my decision, voted leave, and would vote leave again.  We won and all I am interested in now, is getting out as soon as possible.

Fair enough John but I will finish by saying that by your answer you think it’s a them and us competition like a football match, and your clearly not interested in the reality of what’s happening, I really shouldn’t be surprised by that there is an element of Brexiteers of a certain age who refuse to open their eyes and minds to the reality of what is actually happening, all I can hope for is that there are more who are receptive to the truth, and it’s returned back to the country for the final decision. 

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

Palfy,  its not a question of 'not wanting to believe it',  like most things from 'Remain' it falls into the category of propaganda.  Unfortunately for remain,  the selection of the presenter was poor.  Using a celebrity just tells us that remain were more concerned about the 'presentation' than the message.  To clarify my position,  I have no interest in anything put out by remainers.  I thought hard about my decision, voted leave, and would vote leave again.  We won and all I am interested in now, is getting out as soon as possible.

Anything from politicians is propaganda. Unfortunately, the Remain argument is based on fact, whereas Leave has been based on arrogant delusions. 

I don’t know how anyone can see any win other than 1, undemocratic, number. 

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8 hours ago, Matt said:

Anything from politicians is propaganda. Unfortunately, the Remain argument is based on fact, whereas Leave has been based on arrogant delusions. 

I don’t know how anyone can see any win other than 1, undemocratic, number. 

Matt I have kept quiet on this up until now  but you are so wrong I think I need to correct you

Anything from politicians is propaganda. Unfortunately, the Leave argument is based on fact, whereas Remain has been based on arrogant delusions.

 

no I do not believe this line anymore than I believe yours/  but if you want a balanced argument you must stick to real facts

 

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47 minutes ago, rubecula said:

Matt I have kept quiet on this up until now  but you are so wrong I think I need to correct you

Anything from politicians is propaganda. Unfortunately, the Leave argument is based on fact, whereas Remain has been based on arrogant delusions.

 

no I do not believe this line anymore than I believe yours/  but if you want a balanced argument you must stick to real facts

 

Considering the Leave vote is based on future events potentially happening, please explain the fact part. 

Real facts are things that have happened, not assumptions on what might happen. That politicians have repeatedly flat out lied to the public is a fact. That the economy has take a hit is a fact. That company’s are relocating is a fact. That the EU, for all it’s faults, has delivered a high standard of living, sometimes in face of British political disagreement, is fact. That the EU has forced a better distribution of funds in the country is fact. That the EU has provided easier movement for employment is a fact. 

I could go on if you like

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17 hours ago, johnh said:

Palfy,  its not a question of 'not wanting to believe it',  like most things from 'Remain' it falls into the category of propaganda.  Unfortunately for remain,  the selection of the presenter was poor.  Using a celebrity just tells us that remain were more concerned about the 'presentation' than the message.  To clarify my position,  I have no interest in anything put out by remainers.  I thought hard about my decision, voted leave, and would vote leave again.  We won and all I am interested in now, is getting out as soon as possible.

You're bang out of order mate, Stephen Fry is an intellectual and a national treasure and, your argument is genetic :P

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Big news! 

3 options on the table now. May's deal, no deal or stay in the EU. 

The televised debate to be hosted by Noel Edmonds which is why they had to get him out of the jungle so soon.

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Big news! 

3 options on the table now. May's deal, no deal or stay in the EU. 

The televised debate to be hosted by Noel Edmonds which is why they had to get him out of the jungle so soon.

That would actually make more sense than what's currently happening, I laughed at first but then thought, "...hold on a minute, Bailey may be on to something!".

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7 minutes ago, MikeO said:

That would actually make more sense than what's currently happening, I laughed at first but then thought, "...hold on a minute, Bailey may be on to something!".

I actually went to the BBC News site because I thought it would be something that's likely to happen....

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12 minutes ago, holystove said:

This is only an opinion by the Advocate-General, doesn't mean the Court will follow it.  

Thinking advisory means binding is what got the UK in this mess in the first place. 😉

It’s got to balance out somehow mate :) 

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On 01/12/2018 at 17:27, Palfy said:

But now we have more of an idea of what the true Brexit is going to look like, it shouldn't be left to a few hundred to decide whether we no deal no Brexit or except the deal it should be made by the millions, there should be a vote with 3 options with Brexit and no deal, Brexit with the PMs deal or no Brexit.

I think remain campaigners did highlight things that have happened as the article says, but Brexiteers and the right wing press condemned the truth as project fear without counter arguments, and a big proportion of the population supported them because it gave them the opportunity to hide there prejudices yet push them through.

Now these type of people won't change their vote but the ones who genuinely voted out because they were tricked into believing we would be better off are the ones who want the right to right a wrong and why shouldn't they, now the only voters who would object to this are the Brexiteers with the prejudices.

Said a month ago Mike it’s the only fair way forward. 

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23 hours ago, Matt said:

Considering the Leave vote is based on future events potentially happening, please explain the fact part. 

Real facts are things that have happened, not assumptions on what might happen. That politicians have repeatedly flat out lied to the public is a fact. That the economy has take a hit is a fact. That company’s are relocating is a fact. That the EU, for all it’s faults, has delivered a high standard of living, sometimes in face of British political disagreement, is fact. That the EU has forced a better distribution of funds in the country is fact. That the EU has provided easier movement for employment is a fact. 

I could go on if you like

my point in a nutshell Matt  please remember your words in the future

 only if you want to I doubt I will be bothered by what you say,  but some others may be.

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4 hours ago, rubecula said:

my point in a nutshell Matt  please remember your words in the future

 only if you want to I doubt I will be bothered by what you say,  but some others may be.

So I understand you; we agree Leave's sales pitch was based on possibilities that haven't happened and not fact, whereas the arguments made to stay are based on past events which are fact? That's been my point from the beginning, so I won't be forgetting that stance any time soon :) 

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11 hours ago, Matt said:

So I understand you; we agree Leave's sales pitch was based on possibilities that haven't happened and not fact, whereas the arguments made to stay are based on past events which are fact? That's been my point from the beginning, so I won't be forgetting that stance any time soon :) 

In the EU, past facts are not a guide to the future.  The EU is changing all the time.  I voted, back in the 1970's, to enter the European Common Market.  I never had a vote on what the EU has become nor do I recall seeing a manifesto.  Two things that can change facts from past events.  If we have a second referendum and vote remain then we will almost certainly be required to enter the eurozone.  The euro benefits one country, Germany, and most of the economic problems in the EU member states is down to the euro.  The second is the EU army.  How many billions will we have to fork out for this?  Mentioning the EU army, if you can stand it, go onto Youtube and Google  Farage v Clegg European army.  It is cringworthy.  A senior British politician (Clegg) Deputy Prime Minister and probably the most rabid Europhile in Parliament, rages against Farage, tells him that a European army is a 'fantasy'.  Now, as a senior politician and a leading Europhile, you would expect Clegg to have his finger on the EU pulse, so he was either lying through his teeth or he hadn't a clue what was happening in Brussels.  I don't think he was lying.  As with most things that happen in the development of the EU, it all happens behind closed doors, decided by the unelected elite.  A common complaint by remainers is that leavers didn't know what they were voting for.  The same is true of remainers, in spades.

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So what do we think is going to happen with the vote?

I can't see it getting through Parliament, and whilst amendments can now be tabled and voted upon, I don't see them getting through the EU27.

I am not sure another referendum is a good thing for the country but I don't know how else this mess will be resolved.

We could possibly see A50 delayed, a general election called but then both the Tories and Labour will be on leave platforms so unless every one votes Lib Dem, we will be back at it again in X amount of months time.

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

So what do we think is going to happen with the vote?

I can't see it getting through Parliament, and whilst amendments can now be tabled and voted upon, I don't see them getting through the EU27.

I am not sure another referendum is a good thing for the country but I don't know how else this mess will be resolved.

We could possibly see A50 delayed, a general election called but then both the Tories and Labour will be on leave platforms so unless every one votes Lib Dem, we will be back at it again in X amount of months time.

If there was a general election I think that if Corbyn and Labour thought that running with a new vote on Europe would get them into power they would run with it.

Unfortunately both parties are using Brexit as a party political broadcast for themselves to get elected in stead of working together for a better out come.

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14 hours ago, johnh said:

In the EU, past facts are not a guide to the future.  The EU is changing all the time.  I voted, back in the 1970's, to enter the European Common Market.  I never had a vote on what the EU has become nor do I recall seeing a manifesto.  Two things that can change facts from past events.  If we have a second referendum and vote remain then we will almost certainly be required to enter the eurozone.  The euro benefits one country, Germany, and most of the economic problems in the EU member states is down to the euro.  The second is the EU army.  How many billions will we have to fork out for this?  Mentioning the EU army, if you can stand it, go onto Youtube and Google  Farage v Clegg European army.  It is cringworthy.  A senior British politician (Clegg) Deputy Prime Minister and probably the most rabid Europhile in Parliament, rages against Farage, tells him that a European army is a 'fantasy'.  Now, as a senior politician and a leading Europhile, you would expect Clegg to have his finger on the EU pulse, so he was either lying through his teeth or he hadn't a clue what was happening in Brussels.  I don't think he was lying.  As with most things that happen in the development of the EU, it all happens behind closed doors, decided by the unelected elite.  A common complaint by remainers is that leavers didn't know what they were voting for.  The same is true of remainers, in spades.

I understand you get most of your information from reading The Daily Telegraph.  The Europe editor for The Telegraph, Peter Foster, is one of the best (informed) journalists out there; I cannot recommend enough that you read his articles.  

For the record:  if the UK remains, it will never have to join the EUR as it will remain on current terms with its opt-outs.  If the UK rejoins at a later stage, technically there is an obligation to eventually adopt the EUR.  However it is still a sovereign right for the member state to choose when to do this.  Sweden for example meets all the EUR-criteria but chooses to keep its own currency.    (by the way, a lot of economists claim UK would have benefited just as much from the EUR as Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc have).

As for the EU army..  there is currently more military cooperation between the UK and France than there is between EU member states.  Why is there no outrage of an Anglo-Frankish army?  Is there fear that Macron will draft English youth to fight his battles?   It is so easy to stir up fear on this issue...   EU military cooperation is very limited (coordinating purchases at an EU level, etc.) and subject to a veto from every member state. 

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12 hours ago, Bailey said:

So what do we think is going to happen with the vote?

I can't see it getting through Parliament, and whilst amendments can now be tabled and voted upon, I don't see them getting through the EU27.

I am not sure another referendum is a good thing for the country but I don't know how else this mess will be resolved.

We could possibly see A50 delayed, a general election called but then both the Tories and Labour will be on leave platforms so unless every one votes Lib Dem, we will be back at it again in X amount of months time.

The parallels with Greece are uncanny, so if we take Greece 2015 as a guide it is likely that the UK will reject the deal it currently has negotiated only to have to accept a worse deal at the last moment in March/April 2019.

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6 minutes ago, holystove said:

I understand you get most of your information from reading The Daily Telegraph.  The Europe editor for The Telegraph, Peter Foster, is one of the best (informed) journalists out there; I cannot recommend enough that you read his articles.  Given your post(s) I assume you don't read him now.

For the record:  if the UK remains, it will never have to join the EUR as it will remain on current terms with its opt-outs.  If the UK rejoins at a later stage, technically there is an obligation to eventually adopt the EUR.  However it is still a sovereign right for the member state to choose when to do this.  Sweden for example meets all the EUR-criteria but chooses to keep its own currency.    (by the way, a lot of economists claim UK would have benefited just as much from the EUR as Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc have).

As for the EU army..  there is currently more military cooperation between the UK and France than there is between EU member states.  Why is there no outrage of an Anglo-Frankish army?  Is there fear that Macron will draft English youth to fight his battles?   It is so easy to stir up fear on this issue...   EU military cooperation is very limited (coordinating purchases at an EU level, etc.) and subject to a veto from every member state. 

Not to mention NATO. 

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On 05/12/2018 at 23:07, Palfy said:

If there was a general election I think that if Corbyn and Labour thought that running with a new vote on Europe would get them into power they would run with it.

Unfortunately both parties are using Brexit as a party political broadcast for themselves to get elected in stead of working together for a better out come.

I think they would to, which sums up the state of politics in this country. 

The latest Tory edition of this saga is to remind everyone of the "no deal" disruption. Do they think that people wont realise that any disruption will be the fault of Government for failing to in any way fully prepare for a no deal. 

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13 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

why is labour a Leave party?  i would think the left would be remain.

It's not fully, most of them campaigned for remain pre-referendum (though not all) but now they're committed to carry out "the will of the people". Policies very unclear though, they say they'd make a better job of it than the Tories (which my grand-kids could so not overly taxing) but they've not explained how.

The only parties that want the advice that the British public gave to be looked at again in the light of all the new evidence are the Scottish Nationalists, the Liberals and the Greens. 

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

It's not fully, most of them campaigned for remain pre-referendum (though not all) but now they're committed to carry out "the will of the people". Policies very unclear though, they say they'd make a better job of it than the Tories (which my grand-kids could so not overly taxing) but they've not explained how.

The only parties that want the advice that the British public gave to be looked at again in the light of all the new evidence are the Scottish Nationalists, the Liberals and the Greens. 

thanks mike.  i took one of those tests of which party are you and i'm SNP and then Green.  Does SNP only garner votes from Scots?  Seems like they are more left of the Labour party, i guess the Scottish in their title is what holds them back?

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17 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

thanks mike.  i took one of those tests of which party are you and i'm SNP and then Green.  Does SNP only garner votes from Scots?  Seems like they are more left of the Labour party, i guess the Scottish in their title is what holds them back?

Yes mostly because they only put up candidates north of the border (though I'm sure there are English/Welsh/Irish people who live there and vote for them, I would). They've only got really big in recent years, mostly at Labour's expense.

Capture.JPG

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4 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

great stuff mike.  i really do prefer your parlimentary system.  The US seems to as well since every government it topples is replaced with one (see iraq, etc).

So would I just to help the whingeing sods to get their independence, the Scottish nationalists hate the English and from me it’s reciprocated. 

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6 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

why is labour a Leave party?  i would think the left would be remain.

it isn'tt really,  everyone was given a free vote  Corbyn wanted to leave though

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14 hours ago, rubecula said:

it isn'ttt really,  everyone was given a free vote  Corbyn wanted to leave though

Corbyn was at heart a leaver that was evident during the build up to the vote, even though his party and media forced him to say he was a remainer you could tell through his lack of leadership for the remain party that he was a closet leaver. 

But most of the Labour MPs were remainers even though the majority of their constituents were leavers.

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