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Referendum  

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5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree so why are we allowing MPs to decide on whether we except a deal or not, whether you wish to remain or leave it's not the cleverest of things to do, I just find it so hard to contemplate that we would allow the lying scum bags the defining decision on our futures.

Surely I can not be the only one who feels this way, it must be out decision.

don't worry (you are not )

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6 hours ago, rubecula said:

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

 

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I agree so why are we allowing MPs to decide on whether we except a deal or not, whether you wish to remain or leave it's not the cleverest of things to do, I just find it so hard to contemplate that we would allow the lying scum bags the defining decision on our futures.

Surely I can not be the only one who feels this way, it must be out decision.

 

So you don’t know how our democracy works?

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18 hours ago, Palfy said:

But do you believe democracy is to lie to people to gain their vote and when it becomes clear they are untrue statements, to then deny them the right of recourse whether a remainer or leaver. 

For me that’s not democracy working as it should, blatantly lying to win the agenda isn’t democratic it’s more akin corruption but not in your world. 

If I was swayed to vote Brexit because we won’t have to pay them a penny to leave, because we will be giving 350 Million a week to the NHS,  because there give us what we want because they need to trade with us more than we need to with them, because all other countries outside the EU will be queuing to do trades deals with us 

All of which that twat Boris and the Brexit campaign said would happen and now knowing the reality of the situation I would want the right to change my mind that’s the only fair and democratic thing you can offer those people, why do you think they shouldn’t be given that right?

 

I didn't say they shouldn't be given the right.  I criticised your suggestion of how the referendum should be structured.  You appear to be suggesting that there should be two options for voting Brexit, but only one for remain.   Do you mean that if half the Brexit vote goes for each Brexit option, say 26% for each, and Remain gets 48% then Remain wins?   

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On 12/12/2018 at 14:55, Matt said:

I’m amazed anyone wants to take the job! If May got a poisoned chalice taking over from Cameron, what the hell is this going to be?!

I dont think anyone could do any worse, so whilst it would definitely cause that person a headache, if they are compared to May they will always be looked upon more positively.

On 12/12/2018 at 19:52, MikeO said:

That really makes little sense Rubes mate. Why, in a democracy, is it hypocritical to change your mind? It's kind of the point of democracy that you're allowed to do so, you don't hit 18, cast a vote and have that stand for the rest of your life; you assess what's going on and change if/when you feel the need and are more convinced by one side or another.

The Tories voted in a leader a couple of years back who some of them now feel isn'ttt up to the job so some of them will be changing their minds, is that undemocratic?

Also if you're talking about the EU being undemocratic (arguable) then what about the House of Lords? You don't get less democratic than that.

The only vote that's going to get through parliament, in my view, is when a leader has the metaphorical (or real) testicles to stand up and say, "OK thanks for the thoughts in the referendum and we've investigated them thoroughly as you asked but it turns out that leaving is going to be extremely detrimental to our country so we're not going to do it."

Cue much civil unrest and a brief surge of support for UKIP but it's a price worth paying.

I think the issue is that when does this stop?

People voted to stay or remain, no option for a deal or anything like that. It is then up to politicians to make the will of the people become a reality which they have failed miserably on.

I do get the point that now people have a clearer idea of what Brexit means and therefore this vote will be more informed and be slightly different however what happens after the results are in? If its still a vote to leave, will that be the end of it or will there be more appeals for a 3rd vote. If the vote swings to remain, will it need to be the same threshold (ie more than 50%) or will it need to be greater. How will those people who voted leave feel about the political process if they lose this second election? What is the point of voting on an issue, if you are going to have more votes until you get the right answer? Especially when you bear in mind that this 2nd vote is essentially predicated on the basis that those who originally voted leave in the first place "didnt know what they were voting for".

In respect of the House of Lords, they cant make rules and almost all of the powers to prevent legislation have been or are being taken away. They are essentially now a body which revises and checks proposals from the Commons. They have no fear of losing their seat, nor have to play up to the media so the opinion they share should in essence be unaffected by outside influences.

The EU commission has more power than the House of Lords and I believe they propose and draft laws which are then voted upon by the elected ministers. I suppose neither of them has any full power other than one suggests laws to start with and the other suggests way to improve them. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong here.

I agree with you on the last two paragraph though.

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5 hours ago, johnh said:

I didn't say they shouldn't be given the right.  I criticised your suggestion of how the referendum should be structured.  You appear to be suggesting that there should be two options for voting Brexit, but only one for remain.   Do you mean that if half the Brexit vote goes for each Brexit option, say 26% for each, and Remain gets 48% then Remain wins?   

Doesn’t it negate the whole thing with there being two choices to leave anyway?

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On 15/12/2018 at 10:31, johnh said:

I didn't say they shouldn't be given the right.  I criticised your suggestion of how the referendum should be structured.  You appear to be suggesting that there should be two options for voting Brexit, but only one for remain.   Do you mean that if half the Brexit vote goes for each Brexit option, say 26% for each, and Remain gets 48% then Remain wins?   

See where your coming from John and the honest answer is I don’t know anymore, when you look at Mays deal it doesn’t suit either camp so maybe just maybe that’s the compromise no winners all losers. 

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

Reckon May has put the vote off until mid Jan to help end the chance of a second plebiscite?

Could be that she realised that not having the vote at all is completely against how our democracy works 

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9 minutes ago, Matt said:

Could be that she realised that not having the vote at all is completely against how our democracy works 

Shouldn't have been a vote in the first place, the result was clear in 1975.

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

Shouldn't have been a vote in the first place, the result was clear in 1975.

Yes, it was very clear.  We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army.

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

Yes, it was very clear.  We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army.

Except there is no army, there’s NATO. 

Having a second referendum wasn’t the issue in my opinion. The issue has always been that politicians were uneducated on what they were proposing, used the whole thing for their own political gain and, now it’s coming to an actual vote, not a glorified opinion poll, the PM is refusing to follow the democratic process. 

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3 hours ago, johnh said:

Yes, it was very clear.  We voted to enter the European Common Market not a Federal Europe with its own army.

The vote in 2016 was necessary because there is a federal Europe with its own army 😊

 

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7 minutes ago, MikeO said:

All those calling for a second referendum just assume it will be Remain this time.  What will they do if it is Leave again?

In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50.  This is not a question for the people (take this thread as an example).

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23 minutes ago, holystove said:

In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50. 

Option one by a mile for me....

 http://www.toffeetalk.com/topic/27945-brexit/?do=findComment&comment=658581

....but I hold onto the (probably misguided) hope that the British public realise what a daft decision they made in 2016 so there won't be enough stupid, stubborn (and idealistic) people willing to make the same mistake again.

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47 minutes ago, holystove said:

In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50.  This is not a question for the people (take this thread as an example).

You really think it's a question for the MPs / government? They don't know what they're doing, either. Those that pretend they do are guided by self-interest.  

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1 minute ago, Formby said:

You really think it's a question for the MPs / government? They don't know what they're doing, either. Those that pretend they do are guided by self-interest.  

This is where I actually feel sorry for May (never thought I'd say that); she's been left trying to sort out a shitstorm created by people who've all run away and hidden and are notable only by their vacuous comments (eg Rees-Mogg "terrible result for May") or their silence.

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

This is where I actually feel sorry for May (never thought I'd say that); she's been left trying to sort out a shitstorm created by people who've all run away and hidden and are notable only by their vacuous comments (eg Rees-Mogg "terrible result for May") or their silence.

I don't she couldn't wait to implement article 50 she was in such a rush just to prove she was strong and ready to take control of the country.

That was the big mistake that she hasn't or the country haven't recovered from she rushed headlong to implementing article 50 without any thought or planning like it was proof she was strong and ready to lead.

That's why I don't feel sorry for her she never did her homework or any planning.

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17 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I don't she couldn't wait to implement article 50 she was in such a rush just to prove she was strong and ready to take control of the country.

That was the big mistake that she hasn't or the country haven't recovered from she rushed headlong to implementing article 50 without any thought or planning like it was proof she was strong and ready to lead.

That's why I don't feel sorry for her she never did her homework or any planning.

Can't disagree with that Palfy.

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I don't she couldn't wait to implement article 50 she was in such a rush just to prove she was strong and ready to take control of the country.

That was the big mistake that she hasn't or the country haven't recovered from she rushed headlong to implementing article 50 without any thought or planning like it was proof she was strong and ready to lead.

That's why I don't feel sorry for her she never did her homework or any planning.

And surrounded herself with the barrel scrapings of the outdoor lav as “advisors”. 

She didn’t start the shitstorm, but she certainly whipped it up into a tornado crap whilst ignoring anyone or anything that challenged her decision. 

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14 hours ago, holystove said:

All those calling for a second referendum just assume it will be Remain this time.  What will they do if it is Leave again?

In the national interest MPs and the government should just revoke article 50.  This is not a question for the people (take this thread as an example).

While I agree with the sentiment, there is currently a mandate facilitated by the government for Britain to leave the EU. This genie was loosened by the electorate and only they can put it back*

 

* I know this is ridiculous given the UK has a westminster parliamentary system, eg why would any Liverpool MP whose constituents voted in the majority to remain vote for a bill to Brexit?

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11 minutes ago, Chach said:

While I agree with the sentiment, there is currently a mandate facilitated by the government for Britain to leave the EU. This genie was loosened by the electorate and only they can put it back*

 

* I know this is ridiculous given the UK has a westminster parliamentary system, eg why would any Liverpool MP whose constituents voted in the majority to remain vote for a bill to Brexit?

🤷‍♂️ Would they even want to if it becomes public knowledge how they voted could make their lives hell, it’s got to be our choice how ever it’s worded. 

I don’t want them making the decision for me they’ve proven to be incapable of making sensible judgments. 

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3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I don’t want them making the decision for me they’ve proven to be incapable of making sensible judgments. 

To be honest your position is moot, you were remain before and remain now.

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8 minutes ago, Chach said:

To be honest your position is moot, you were remain before and remain now.

Not really I have as much of a vested interest as to what happens before and after Brexit as you, this isn’t now solely the demain of the Brexiteers. 

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39 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Not really I have as much of a vested interest as to what happens before and after Brexit as you, this isn’t now solely the demain of the Brexiteers. 

The second referendum would be the domain of people changing their mind, Remain > Leave and Leave > Remain.

its entirely conceivable the leave position would improve.

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49 minutes ago, Chach said:

The second referendum would be the domain of people changing their mind, Remain > Leave and Leave > Remain.

its entirely conceivable the leave position would improve.

No it wouldn’t. It would be people who are still interested! 

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

Yeah, nah.

I would’ve been Remain before, and I’m still for it now. Others were Leave voters before and show no sign of changing their minds  

If there was a second referendum it’d be for everyone (ideally), not just those thinking of changing their position. 

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Just now, Matt said:

I would’ve been Remain before, and I’m still for it now. Others were Leave voters before and show no sign of changing their minds  

If there was a second referendum it’d be for everyone (ideally), not just those thinking of changing their position. 

Thank you for clarifying, captain obvious.

So in summary, it would be for everyone and only the people who have changed their mind from the last time would have a net impact on the result.

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14 minutes ago, Chach said:

Thank you for clarifying, captain obvious.

So in summary, it would be for everyone and only the people who have changed their mind from the last time would have a net impact on the result.

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No. People have died, new generation of voters coming, for example. Or is that too obvious too?

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Just now, Chach said:

Ok, I'm just going to assume you've never taken a statistics unit and just leave it there.

I’m guessing neither have you if you don’t see new stats entering into an existing formula. 

Yes, leave or remain could gain more from people changing minds. The 3m people abroad might be given a voice. Leave voters tended to be older, some might not be around to vote. Under age people in 2016 will now be of age to vote. 

Yeah, it’s more than just people changing their minds. 

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2 minutes ago, Matt said:

new stats entering into an existing formula. 

The stats are the outcomes, the changes to inputs are variables.

Over a longer period that would certainly make a larger difference, but we're talking of a margin of 1.3m votes over a couple of years and we know how different demographics voted last time. 

People are going to have to change their mind and if this thread is anything to go by I wouldn't have any breath holding competitions on that happening.

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Just now, Chach said:

The stats are the outcomes, the changes to inputs are variables.

Over a longer period that would certainly make a larger difference, but we're talking of a margin of 1.3m votes over a couple of years and we know how different demographics voted last time. 

People are going to have to change their mind and if this thread is anything to go by I wouldn't have any breath holding competitions on that happening.

My mistake on the wording, but you know what I mean.

Wasn't denying that. I said it will be decided by people who are interested, although I should've said eligible and interested.

Can't remember where I read it back after the result was announced, but by the time Brexit would be implemented, it was estimated 2.5m new voters would be of age, and as the trend of votes showed, the majority of youth wanted to Remain. It was also estimated 1.5m would have died by the time Brexit was implemented, with the older population being more likely to vote leave. That's a big difference, (ignoring the 3m that weren't allowed to vote, because we probably wouldn't be allowed again), that's not down to changing of mind.  

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10 minutes ago, Chach said:

People are going to have to change their mind and if this thread is anything to go by I wouldn't have any breath holding competitions on that happening.

Had to smile at this line! Is there anyone on the board who has changed sides / position? Lots of bunkered in talk and not much rapprochement.  

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2 minutes ago, Matt said:

My mistake on the wording, but you know what I mean.

Wasn't denying that. I said it will be decided by people who are interested, although I should've said eligible and interested.

Can't remember where I read it back after the result was announced, but by the time Brexit would be implemented, it was estimated 2.5m new voters would be of age, and as the trend of votes showed, the majority of youth wanted to Remain. It was also estimated 1.5m would have died by the time Brexit was implemented, with the older population being more likely to vote leave. That's a big difference, (ignoring the 3m that weren't allowed to vote, because we probably wouldn't be allowed again), that's not down to changing of mind.  

What was the voter turnout of the 1.5m who were on deaths door or the 2.5m new voters?

I'll wager it wasn't 72% mate, the demographic change will not swing the vote because it will look roughly the same.

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1 minute ago, Chach said:

What was the voter turnout of the 1.5m who were on deaths door or the 2.5m new voters?

I'll wager it wasn't 72% mate, the demographic change will not swing the vote because it will look roughly the same.

Fair point, but the young voters will be a lot more motivated than those who aren't here anymore, and with the last 20 months, the youth might be more motivated than ever.

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

Fair point, but the young voters will be a lot more motivated than those who aren't here anymore, and with the last 20 months, the youth might be more motivated than ever.

Also I think it was assumed all along that remain would win so possibly a lot of people just didn't bother, nearly thirteen million didn't vote. Certainly some of them will have been "out" supporters but I think it's fair to assume that a lot of them were quite content with how things were and trusted in the polls telling them that that was how it was going to stay; people who want change are more likely to act than people happy with the status quo.

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2 hours ago, Formby said:

Had to smile at this line! Is there anyone on the board who has changed sides / position? Lots of bunkered in talk and not much rapprochement.  

If anything, I’ve learnt a lot from all the research I’ve done leading up to and since the referendum, and I’m more convinced than ever that remaining would’ve been the better option

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10 hours ago, Chach said:

The second referendum would be the domain of people changing their mind, Remain > Leave and Leave > Remain.

its entirely conceivable the leave position would improve.

Of course you’re right it is very possible that the leave position could improve, and if it did or didn’t a new vote based more on the reality and not the lies of both sides would be a more definitive and just result. 

With out doubt there must be numerous people on both sides who feel they had been misled, plus the millions who never voted that may feel their vote would make a difference to the outcome. 

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6 hours ago, Matt said:

My mistake on the wording, but you know what I mean.

Wasn't denying that. I said it will be decided by people who are interested, although I should've said eligible and interested.

Can't remember where I read it back after the result was announced, but by the time Brexit would be implemented, it was estimated 2.5m new voters would be of age, and as the trend of votes showed, the majority of youth wanted to Remain. It was also estimated 1.5m would have died by the time Brexit was implemented, with the older population being more likely to vote leave. That's a big difference, (ignoring the 3m that weren't allowed to vote, because we probably wouldn't be allowed again), that's not down to changing of mind.  

Considering there has been no official breakdown of the vote, how can you say the majority of youth wanted to remain? You’re going off unofficial polls for your info, the same sort of unofficial polls that had remain comfortably winning the vote.

Tut, tut 😛 

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48 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Considering there has been no official breakdown of the vote, how can you say the majority of youth wanted to remain? You’re going off unofficial polls for your info, the same sort of unofficial polls that had remain comfortably winning the vote.

Tut, tut 😛 

Not rocket science though, feel free to dismiss it if you like but pretty undeniable...

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

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10 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Not rocket science though, feel free to dismiss it if you like but pretty undeniable...

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

YouGov had remain winning the vote beforehand, which seemed pretty undeniable as well, and polls in recent years around voting have been a load of shite. And tbh, I wouldn’t trust the youth of this country as far as I could thrown them anyway. It’s that youth that campaigns to get clapping banned at uni and you must do jazz hands to show appreciation instead. Or that same youth that wants the wearing of poppies banned. So, with all due respect, the youth are as big a bunch of fucking idiots as any age group. Their want is no more important than anyone else’s.

I was only winding Matt up anyway. 

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1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

YouGov had remain winning the vote beforehand, which seemed pretty undeniable as well, and polls in recent years around voting have been a load of shite. And tbh, I wouldn’t trust the youth of this country as far as I could thrown them anyway. It’s that youth that campaigns to get clapping banned at uni and you must do jazz hands to show appreciation instead. Or that same youth that wants the wearing of poppies banned. So, with all due respect, the youth are as big a bunch of fucking idiots as any age group. Their want is no more important than anyone else’s.

I was only winding Matt up anyway. 

You type fast!

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1 minute ago, Palfy said:

I can only say based on my wider family that those statistics on the vote based on age are pretty much the same as our family voted. 

Not a single member of my close or extended family voted out I'm proud to say, from a 16 year old niece who was well pissed she had no say to my late father-in-law (who was 93 at the time).

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7 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Not a single member of my close or extended family voted out I'm proud to say, from a 16 year old niece who was well pissed she had no say to my late father-in-law (who was 93 at the time).

My son who was 33 at the time didn’t vote, my daughters who were 31 and 29 voted remain my wife and myself voted remain, both my wife’s parents and their partners voted leave they are all in there mid 70s to early 80s. 

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10 hours ago, Palfy said:

Of course you’re right it is very possible that the leave position could improve, and if it did or didn’t a new vote based more on the reality and not the lies of both sides would be a more definitive and just result. 

With out doubt there must be numerous people on both sides who feel they had been misled, plus the millions who never voted that may feel their vote would make a difference to the outcome. 

It would be very interesting to watch it unfold thats for sure.

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Matt, you're in the clear.   The UK and Switzerland have come to an agreement which covers both scenarios, withdrawal agreement or no deal, and it states there will be no change to the status of UK citizens in Switzerland or Swiss citizens in the UK.

https://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/en/home/aktuell/news/2018/2018-12-20.html

 

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23 minutes ago, holystove said:

Matt, you're in the clear.   The UK and Switzerland have come to an agreement which covers both scenarios, withdrawal agreement or no deal, and it states there will be no change to the status of UK citizens in Switzerland or Swiss citizens in the UK.

https://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/en/home/aktuell/news/2018/2018-12-20.html

 

I saw :) right, sod y’all! I’m safe!

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