MikeO Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 Just one more observation about 1975 as you edited in a link which I didn't see until after I'd replied Rusty. Looking at the map of how the regions voted it's interesting that back then England and Wales were solidly "in" while Scotland and NI were far more sceptic; this time around the roles are completely reversed. No idea why that is, just thought I'd mention it to see if anyone had a view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 Whoops. Sorry guys. Right message, wrong recipient. Beers on me then! Make mine a stein . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Tell me where I can find you and I may well be able to arrange my flying roster to make it happen. Off to Hyderabad later tonight but I'm guessing that's not even close! Edited March 11, 2017 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 Tell me where I can find you and I may well be able to arrange my flying roster to make it happen. Off to Hyderabad later tonight but I'm guessing that's not even close! I don't think the big birds you fly land at Exeter too often sadly mate, was due to be in Amsterdam for a while next month but looking like I'm going to have to cancel. Dunkeswell is actually closest to me but I'm guessing that's a non-starter . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkeswell_Aerodrome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 I don't think the big birds you fly land at Exeter too often sadly mate, was due to be in Amsterdam for a while next month but looking like I'm going to have to cancel. Dunkeswell is actually closest to me but I'm guessing that's a non-starter . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkeswell_Aerodrome Ah, yes. Closest I could get would be Birmingham. Lovely part of the country you live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 Just one more observation about 1975 as you edited in a link which I didn't see until after I'd replied Rusty. Looking at the map of how the regions voted it's interesting that back then England and Wales were solidly "in" while Scotland and NI were far more sceptic; this time around the roles are completely reversed. No idea why that is, just thought I'd mention it to see if anyone had a view. I think it's because England and Wales have more migrants from the E.U and the rest of the world than Northern Ireland and Scotland, and so people voted to to take back what they thought would be control of the border to stop migrant workers from entering the country, I think that out voters didn't really consider the federal state argument or European law's policy, but just wanted to close our borders to foreigners, Northern Ireland and Scotland didn't see that as an issue so voted remain.That seems a likely reason for the swing can't think of any other reason why there's a difference in the regions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 12, 2017 Report Share Posted March 12, 2017 rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) Article fifty triggering or not will make no difference to my views, I don't get this "done so let's all get behind it" attitude. Everything from slavery, apartheid, soviet communism and council tax was enshrined in law at the time but people who disagreed made their points heard and eventually sanity prevailed. Not comparing the brexit argument to any of those obviously but just making the point that if you're in a minority on something you don't immediately change your view and fall into line just because you're outvoted. Yes I agree with this as well. Are the people that are in favour of Brexit still afraid it won't happen and therefor don't want any dissenting opinions? To me, another important problem with the "let's get behind it' movement is the focus on hard brexit. I'm in favour of brexit, but not a hard one. There are many different ways to brexit. I'm a clear proponent of maximum cooperation, I just wanted to get rid of the feared 'British veto'. I wonder what would happen if two brexiteers meet and one of them wants the UK out of the EU but in the Single Market, and the other one wants a hard brexit. Will they both use the argument "will of the people" to support their view? Edited March 13, 2017 by holystove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 It depends on your definition of culture. I'm not just talking about the arts or language but the basic principles that, within a culture, influence how we approach every aspect of life. Economic policy is cultural. (I remember decades ago that many in England threw a fit when told Britain must adhere to European labour laws, for example.) Doctors making home visits is cultural. Sense of humour, which might be risque or raucous, is cultural. So too are certain agricultural methods and bank holidays and forms of wine-making and haggis and setting fire to Guy Fawkes and the Grand National and fox hunting and burkinis and gun laws and cinnamon rolls and so on. The EU may respect the arts in each member country (although they do spend money on promoting an EU culture), but one's culture is very much more than that. I understand what you mean. But surely international (or supranational) cooperation requires some compromise. In your example of labour laws, there was probably harmonisation needed between French, Dutch, German, UK, regulation, the end result being something with elements of different systems. The only definitive way for the EU to respect British culture is to apply all British rules on the entire continent, but obviously that wouldn't sit well with other members. I think the EU does the maximum it can to respect local culture, and as a vehicle for cooperation is a better protector of local culture than Countries, which as you have adequately described were often times arbitrarily created (Belgium being a prime example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) But why is compromising our British culture to be viewed as a good thing? By leaving the EU we can retain/reclaim our diverse British culture and no compromise at all is necessary. Edited March 13, 2017 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 But why is compromising our British culture to be viewed as a good thing? By leaving the EU we can retain/reclaim our diverse British culture and no compromise at all is necessary.British culture is about integration (forced or diplomatic depending on the time lines) so isn't this a step in the opposite direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) British culture is about integration (forced or diplomatic depending on the time lines) so isn't this a step in the opposite direction?I am not expressing an opinion. It is a question. I don't understand how something can be protected by being compromised and I dont understand how compromising something that people obviously have such strong feelings about (Cornish or Celtic culture for example in this case) can be portrayed as a step forward? Edited March 13, 2017 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) I am not expressing an opinion. It is a question. I don't understand how something can be protected by being compromised and I dont understand how compromising something that people obviously have such strong feelings about (Cornish or Celtic culture for example in this case) can be portrayed as a step forward? I was asking a question too Edited March 13, 2017 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 I was asking a question to Afraid I can't answer my own (that's why I asked it) or yours. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 I am not expressing an opinion. It is a question. I don't understand how something can be protected by being compromised and I dont understand how compromising something that people obviously have such strong feelings about (Cornish or Celtic culture for example in this case) can be portrayed as a step forward? The EU has as a core principle to centralise as little as possible, and only acts when it is more effective and efficient to do so, as opposed to regions or countries acting on their own. There is much more centralisation at the country level. France, for example, is extremely centralised with Paris deciding everything (even the smalles issues) from Calais to Nice. So my point would be that a centralised government is more intrusive than the EU would be, because the EU would only regulate when it has the competence to do so, and when it is of added value that it acts. When a supranational or international organisation does act, within its competence, it is inevitable that its action is a result of compromise. So the two exist next to each other. Anyway this is only in regards to what Steve said about cultural identity and is not really that big an issue, imo, in regards to brexit. I'm just trying to understand the threat of the EU to local cultures or regional identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) here we go Scotland going to try the vote for independence again http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/13/519964357/scottish-leader-seeks-new-vote-on-independence-it-will-be-scotlands-choice i hope they get it and then vote to be in the EU. Edited March 13, 2017 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 I have a feeling that wee nippy is going to get a seriously bloodied nose over this. The previous independence vote was supposed to be a 'once in a lifetime opportunity' until she lost it and politicians of all persuasions are saying that this is no more than Sturgeon throwing her toys out of the pram. If PM May invokes Article 50 this week I think a lot of Scots people will be telling wee nippy to wind her neck in. But, interesting times ahead, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 I have a feeling that wee nippy is going to get a seriously bloodied nose over this. The previous independence vote was supposed to be a 'once in a lifetime opportunity' until she lost it and politicians of all persuasions are saying that this is no more than Sturgeon throwing her toys out of the pram. If PM May invokes Article 50 this week I think a lot of Scots people will be telling wee nippy to wind her neck in. But, interesting times ahead, that's for sure. 62 percent for remain. i would imagine the vote would pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 here we go Scotland going to try the vote for independence again http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/13/519964357/scottish-leader-seeks-new-vote-on-independence-it-will-be-scotlands-choice i hope they get it and then vote to be in the EU. i was really against them going for it last time, but completely support gem this time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 hypothetical. scotland wins independece. scotland votes to join the EU. do you think any brits would move up there? probably not many i'm guessing, just like not many have left the US once trump took over (me included) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 You wouldn't have to move, they'd have their own passport then and, if I remember correctly, you can apply based on if your grandparents were Scottish (like mine) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 62 percent for remain. i would imagine the vote would pass. But that was to remain in EU, not for independence. The 2 are very different - or should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 But that was to remain in EU, not for independence. The 2 are very different - or should be. i understand. but now a vote for indepence is essentially a vote to join the EU. so in that sense i imagine it would still be close but would edge it out seeing the general attitude of post Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 You wouldn't have to move, they'd have their own passport then and, if I remember correctly, you can apply based on if your grandparents were Scottish (like mine) I had a Welsh grandfather so I have a bit of Celt in me; does that mean I can have one? Please . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 The fact that both the UK and Ireland became members of the EU was a big positive. The troubles associated with Ireland in the 70s were bad and escalating. Even in Cornwall, I knew people who'd been killed in a bombing. The treatment of Catholic families by police was terrible, and, with government intransigence, there was no obvious solution. The fact that both countries were EU members undoubtedly helped solve the problem. I'm not sure whether the existence of the EU helped solve problems in the Basque region, for example, I don't know. One major goal of the EU has been to reduce the risk of conflicts within Europe, and it's achieved that. So, in addition to the economic benefits, I can see other political good. For me, though, the obvious differences between national and regional cultures, especially language, take time to address. I take Rusty's point: Why be forced to compromise or change when you don't want to and, outside the EU, would not have to? Britain is simply not ready to give up aspects of its own sovereignty. Maybe things will be different in a couple of decades, but now is certainly not the time for a political union, a USE. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) hypothetical. scotland wins independece. scotland votes to join the EU. do you think any brits would move up there? probably not many i'm guessing, just like not many have left the US once trump took over (me included) Would Scots (EU) be allowed to live and work in England (non-EU)? Would the English be allowed to live and work in Scotland? Edited March 13, 2017 by Cornish Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 I hope the Scots enjoy the Euro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 62 percent for remain. i would imagine the vote would pass. I think it's doubtful they break up UK. I'm with Liam Fox on this. He tweeted today: "Absurd to think that Scotland would vote against their economic interests on account of abstract notions such as "Sovereignty"." (fine, it might be a spoof account). Edited March 13, 2017 by holystove MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 Would Scots (EU) be allowed to live and work in England (non-EU)? Would the English be allowed to live and work in Scotland? Guessing here. yes with visas, and Yes with visas. Same as it is for non EU countries now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 I think it's doubtful they break up UK. I'm with Liam Fox on this. He tweeted today: "Absurd to think that Scotland would vote against their economic interests on account of abstract notions such as "Sovereignty"." (fine, it might be a spoof account). tongue in cheek i'm guessing. but wouldn't the Scots gain from leaving the UK? they are the industrial powerhouse and England needs them, do they really need england? serious question here as i'm not that familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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