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Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
      26
    • Leave
      24


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12 hours ago, MikeO said:

Nai surely? But will the 27 say oxi to renegiotiation? They've said unequivocally that they won't so what will Mrs Maybe come back to the commons with?

Don't miss next week's action packed adventure!

I was making the comparison with Greece 2015 where they held their referendum, voted "OXI" to the deal ... (and then Greece accepted a worse deal 8 days later.)

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14 hours ago, Bailey said:

Personally I am surprised Cooper's amendment got defeated.

That was down to fourteen Labour MP's voting against it, if they'd have gone with it it would've passed.

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

That was down to fourteen Labour MP's voting against it, if they'd have gone with it it would've passed.

I was watching some of it unfold in your House of Commons yesterday.  Why don't they use electronic voting like any other modern parliament?  Every time there is a 'division' it takes twenty minutes to count the votes.  

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2 minutes ago, holystove said:

I was watching some of it unfold in your House of Commons yesterday.  Why don't they use electronic voting like any other modern parliament?  Every time there is a 'division' it takes twenty minutes to count the votes.  

That would require some of them to be able to plan for change...

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

That would require some of them to be able to plan for change...

I'm increasingly convinced the UK wouldn't meet the necessary standards of a modern parliamentary democracy to be allowed to (re-)join the EU.

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5 hours ago, MikeO said:

That was down to fourteen Labour MP's voting against it, if they'd have gone with it it would've passed.

I am surprised more Tories didnt vote for it. Scared of the boss.

4 hours ago, holystove said:

I was watching some of it unfold in your House of Commons yesterday.  Why don't they use electronic voting like any other modern parliament?  Every time there is a 'division' it takes twenty minutes to count the votes.  

Madness isnt it! The whole House is completely outdated and so are most of the MP's!

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21 minutes ago, holystove said:

I'm increasingly convinced the UK wouldn't meet the necessary standards of a modern parliamentary democracy to be allowed to (re-)join the EU.

That would be a lucky break.  Go into Youtube and key in  'Verhofstadt Power' and have a look at what we would be rejoining.  He reminds me of someone, can't think who at the minute.

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

That would be a lucky break.  Go into Youtube and key in  'Verhofstadt Power' and have a look at what we would be rejoining.  He reminds me of someone, can't think who at the minute.

He would appear to be a fairly minor player who wants more integration, not sure who you're alluding to with the, "he reminds me of someone" comment but it must be some "radical liberal" (oxymoron?) that I've not heard of.

Instead the World is descending into nationalism by the day, with any luck we'll go back to colonialism in the not too distant future, those Americans are getting a bit big for their boots.

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5 hours ago, holystove said:

I was watching some of it unfold in your House of Commons yesterday.  Why don't they use electronic voting like any other modern parliament?  Every time there is a 'division' it takes twenty minutes to count the votes.  

If nothing else us Brits are traditionalists we do everything the hard way hadn’t you noticed?

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15 hours ago, MikeO said:

He would appear to be a fairly minor player who wants more integration, not sure who you're alluding to with the, "he reminds me of someone" comment but it must be some "radical liberal" (oxymoron?) that I've not heard of.

Instead the World is descending into nationalism by the day, with any luck we'll go back to colonialism in the not too distant future, those Americans are getting a bit big for their boots.

Mike, I'm gobsmacked!  A fairly minor player?  He's one of the EU's main men.  He wouldn't be allowed to spout that if they didn't agree.  The 'reminds me of someone'  has come to mind now, it was Kruschev.  When he was the man in charge of the Soviet Union. He used to be seen at the UN ranting and raving and in one instance banging his shoe on the table.  All the same these dictators.

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4 hours ago, johnh said:

Mike, I'm gobsmacked!  A fairly minor player?  He's one of the EU's main men.  He wouldn't be allowed to spout that if they didn't agree.  The 'reminds me of someone'  has come to mind now, it was Kruschev.  When he was the man in charge of the Soviet Union. He used to be seen at the UN ranting and raving and in one instance banging his shoe on the table.  All the same these dictators.

So you're seriously suggesting this guy is the future dictator of Europe?

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3 hours ago, MikeO said:

So you're seriously suggesting this guy is the future dictator of Europe?

No, what I'm suggesting is that Remainers  are sleepwalking into a dictatorship. After years of lying about an EU army, it is now out in the open.  EU police force next. Once these are in place the EU will move from being a 'rules based' dictatorship to a 'proper' dictatorship.

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17 minutes ago, johnh said:

No, what I'm suggesting is that Remainers  are sleepwalking into a dictatorship.

I'd suggest that Brexiteers are sleepwalking into nationalism backed all the way by the racist and xenophobic amongst us whose number is growing every day which is a far more likely breeding ground for a dictatorship. Europe will never have a dictator, project fantasy.

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15 hours ago, johnh said:

No, what I'm suggesting is that Remainers  are sleepwalking into a dictatorship. After years of lying about an EU army, it is now out in the open.  EU police force next. Once these are in place the EU will move from being a 'rules based' dictatorship to a 'proper' dictatorship.

Were you wearing a yellow vest while you wrote this? 😉

EU is, and will remain, at its core, a peace project.  Why is it that all these movements that are crying out for more democracy, liberalism and rule of law in Central and Eastern Europe are waving EU flags... 

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5 hours ago, holystove said:

Were you wearing a yellow vest while you wrote this? 😉

EU is, and will remain, at its core, a peace project.  Why is it that all these movements that are crying out for more democracy, liberalism and rule of law in Central and Eastern Europe are waving EU flags... 

If the EU is a peace project why does it want to pull out of NATO and have its own army?

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3 hours ago, johnh said:

If the EU is a peace project why does it want to pull out of NATO and have its own army?

Who do you think the EU are looking likely to go to war with. 

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15 hours ago, Palfy said:

Who do you think the EU are looking likely to go to war with. 

Rhetorical question I know but if the EU ever had an army it'd be used as a peacekeeping force, as NATO is currently. The problem is that Trump seems to want out of NATO (one day, then not the next) so it's got a bit wobbly at the mo. 

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On 31/01/2019 at 19:55, johnh said:

No, what I'm suggesting is that Remainers  are sleepwalking into a dictatorship. After years of lying about an EU army, it is now out in the open.  EU police force next. Once these are in place the EU will move from being a 'rules based' dictatorship to a 'proper' dictatorship.

You been reading 1984 mate?

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57 minutes ago, Matt said:

You been reading 1984 mate?

No, but what I have been reading (by one of the world's experts on dictatorships) is the comment my Mikhail Gorbachev.   'The most puzzling development in politics is the apparent determination of Western European leaders (EU) to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.'

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I just watched the Benedict Cumberbach film Brexit the Uncivil War. 

It was really interesting. Anyone with an interest in Brexit should give it a watch. 

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10 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, I would hazard a guess that if Boris Johnson had made the same comments about remainers, you wouldn't have found it amusing.  But when a foreign bureaucrat makes the comment abut 52% of our population, it is OK.  Sad, really.

You're misrepresenting what he said John as the tabloids doubtless will tomorrow. He was talking about "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely" and not those who voted for it. He was talking about Johnson, Gove, Farage, Rees-Mogg etc etc obviously but it'll be spun to support the agenda you suggest. You've already done it in your own head as an intelligent man so what hope your average red-top reader?

Actually I find everything that Johnson says/does amusing as he's a top notch buffoon.

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4 minutes ago, Matt said:

Of the eligible electorate 

Yes, fair comment, though it could be argued, in this context, that anyone who couldn't be bothered to vote shouldn't be included.

The fact is, if there ever was a second referendum, Tusk has just increased the 'leave' vote by several million.  Typical arrogant EU bureaucrat.

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39 minutes ago, MikeO said:

You're misrepresenting what he said John as the tabloids doubtless will tomorrow. He was talking about "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely" and not those who voted for it. He was talking about Johnson, Gove, Farage, Rees-Mogg etc etc obviously but it'll be spun to support the agenda you suggest. You've already done it in your own head as an intelligent man so what hope your average red-top reader?

Actually I find everything that Johnson says/does amusing as he's a top notch buffoon.

I agree that Johnson is a buffoon.  Unfortunately, the leave side have to put up with him.  Similarly the remain side have to put up with Blair, who is not a buffoon.  He is devious, which is far more concerning.

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41 minutes ago, johnh said:

I agree that Johnson is a buffoon.  Unfortunately, the leave side have to put up with him.  Similarly the remain side have to put up with Blair, who is not a buffoon.  He is devious, which is far more concerning.

Blair was a peripheral figure in the remain campaign, Johnson was one of the leaders of out (though as we all know he never thought for a moment out would win and did it all to further his career). Blair has no public office so he's insignificant, a red herring; the four I mentioned who were the "out" leaders along with others do have political positions and ran for the hills when they "won" because they had no idea what to do next and have continued to hide in the shadows while May takes the crap for their self serving idiocy.

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It is still a silly thing to say at this moment in time, especially to joke about it afterwards as well.

If anything it just shows to me that this particular EU politician is as bad as ours!

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13 hours ago, johnh said:

Yes, fair comment, though it could be argued, in this context, that anyone who couldn't be bothered to vote shouldn't be included.

The fact is, if there ever was a second referendum, Tusk has just increased the 'leave' vote by several million.  Typical arrogant EU bureaucrat.

Yeah, I agree.  the couldn’t be bothered ro vote doesn’t count as we’ve no idea what they’d vote. Then there’s the millions who were refused a vote, like me and other expats. 

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15 hours ago, MikeO said:

Blair was a peripheral figure in the remain campaign, Johnson was one of the leaders of out (though as we all know he never thought for a moment out would win and did it all to further his career). Blair has no public office so he's insignificant, a red herring; the four I mentioned who were the "out" leaders along with others do have political positions and ran for the hills when they "won" because they had no idea what to do next and have continued to hide in the shadows while May takes the crap for their self serving idiocy.

He isn'tt now.

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19 hours ago, johnh said:

Mike, I would hazard a guess that if Boris Johnson had made the same comments about remainers, you wouldn't have found it amusing.  But when a foreign bureaucrat makes the comment abut 52% of our population, it is OK.  Sad, really.

You an MP John? :P

 

 

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https://www.ft.com/content/9cd62bde-32ba-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5

"The differences of position, which the Hunt/Fox letter acknowledges as “challenging issues”, centre around Japan’s refusal to accept a simple “cut and paste” of the terms of the EU-Japan agreement ratified last year.  Instead, its [Japan's] officials have been told to negotiate as they would any other trade accord, and to seek better terms from the UK than Japan won through its long haggle with the much larger EU."

Noone could have predicted this ... 🤦‍♂️

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1 hour ago, holystove said:

https://www.ft.com/content/9cd62bde-32ba-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5

"The differences of position, which the Hunt/Fox letter acknowledges as “challenging issues”, centre around Japan’s refusal to accept a simple “cut and paste” of the terms of the EU-Japan agreement ratified last year.  Instead, its [Japan's] officials have been told to negotiate as they would any other trade accord, and to seek better terms from the UK than Japan won through its long haggle with the much larger EU."

Noone could have predicted this ... 🤦‍♂️

Anyone with an ounce of common sense and negotiating skills?

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