Brexit...

[StevO]

I'll read that now Matt, is this an accurate reflection of what people think? I never trust anything posted online, or in the papers for that matter, especially in this topic.

[MikeO]

I'll read that now Matt, is this an accurate reflection of what people think? I never trust anything posted online, or in the papers for that matter, especially in this topic.

 

Wise.

[Matt]

I'll read that now Matt, is this an accurate reflection of what people think? I never trust anything posted online, or in the papers for that matter, especially in this topic.

So there's no point in me replying then

 

Honestly, I don't know. I never really paid attention in 2014 because I had my permit and they couldn't kick me out if they tried. I also never thought things would be so bad in the UK to think "Brexit" would become a thing, but I should've known better with the Tories in charge...

[StevO]

Fair enough mate, I've read the first link. Seems grim. I'll read the second now.

 

I may not trust things online, but I believe everything I read on TT.

[holystove]

How they thought they could operate with a currency designed for the Germans is mind boggling. On the other hand, they may not have had a choice the EU being as undemocratic as it is.

 

Well this is a new low. Greece wanted very much to be in the eurozone but wasn't allowed to ("by the EU elite..") because they didn't meet the Maastricht criteria (neither did Belgium at the time). However, because it was the (democratic) wish of the Greek people to join the euro, they were allowed to. Even in the midst of the euro-crisis in Greece a vast majority of Greeks wanted to stay in the euro. So the undemocratic thing would have been not to allow them to join in the first place or to throw them out now.

 

It is also a complete fallacy that only Germany benefited from the euro. It is however indeed a currency for strong economies, that's why the Maastrichts criteria are there; a country can only join the eurozone if it meets those criteria. Belgium, the Netherlands, .. all small countries who have benefited greatly from joining the eurozone.

--

 

(seperate point: what happened in Greece is actually an argument for more involvement of the EU. they got a lot of EU money but mismanaged it and got into a lot of trouble. If there had been more EU oversight over how they spent the money, this might not have happened.. )

Edited June 15, 2016 by holystove

[MikeO]

Fair enough mate, I've read the first link. Seems grim. I'll read the second now.

 

I may not trust things online, but I believe everything I read on TT.

 

Unwise.

[Matt]

Fair enough mate, I've read the first link. Seems grim. I'll read the second now.

 

I may not trust things online, but I believe everything I read on TT.

I still can't get my head around the leave debate. Short term it's attractive, but it's driven by a fear / self preservation instinct which in the long term it fucks us over big time. We should be thinking for the impact of generations to come, as well as the "greater good" argument.

 

Maybe I'm still a lot more idealistic that I thought!

[Matt]

 

Well this is a new low. Greece wanted very much to be in the eurozone but wasn't allowed to ("by the EU elite..") because they didn't meet the Maastricht criteria (neither did Belgium at the time). However, because it was the (democratic) wish of the Greek people to join the euro, they were allowed to. Even in the midst of the euro-crisis in Greece a vast majority of Greeks wanted to stay in the euro. So the undemocratic thing would have been not to allow them to join in the first place or to throw them out now.

 

It is also a complete fallacy that only Germany benefited from the euro. It is however indeed a currency for strong economies, that's why the Maastrichts criteria are there; a country can only join the eurozone if it meets those criteria. Belgium, the Netherlands, .. all small countries who have benefited greatly from joining the eurozone.

--

 

(seperate point: what happened in Greece is actually an argument for more involvement of the EU. they got a lot of EU money but mismanaged it and got into a lot of trouble. If there had been more EU oversight over how they spent the money, this might not have happened.. )

I remember when I was working in Hungary this point coming up a lot, actually summarized reasonably well in wiki :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary_and_the_euro

[Makis]

 

The EU arrogantly telling Britain how it's going to be, how they can boss us around, how we can and cannot trade, and how we're oh-so-dependent on them. Such an attitude, frankly, makes people livid - and rightly so.

So, let's assume trade between Britain and EU stops. Which party is hit worse? You can trade with the rest of the world as you like but if you are outside of EU you trade on our terms, just like the Swiss. US is the biggest trade partner for Britain, but the next four biggest countries where Britain exports goods and services are in the EU (Germany, France, Netherlands, Ireland). https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx

 

As an example, let's say there is a commodity that is made both in Britain and some other EU member state. If Britain is outside the EU why would EU let Britain export that commodity freely to EU? Britain would almost certainly have to give bigger concessions to the EU to get that agreement. Unless Britain produces something no-one else does.

[johnh]

 

Well this is a new low. Greece wanted very much to be in the eurozone but wasn't allowed to ("by the EU elite..") because they didn't meet the Maastricht criteria (neither did Belgium at the time). However, because it was the (democratic) wish of the Greek people to join the euro, they were allowed to. Even in the midst of the euro-crisis in Greece a vast majority of Greeks wanted to stay in the euro. So the undemocratic thing would have been not to allow them to join in the first place or to throw them out now.

 

It is also a complete fallacy that only Germany benefited from the euro. It is however indeed a currency for strong economies, that's why the Maastrichts criteria are there; a country can only join the eurozone if it meets those criteria. Belgium, the Netherlands, .. all small countries who have benefited greatly from joining the eurozone.

--

 

(seperate point: what happened in Greece is actually an argument for more involvement of the EU. they got a lot of EU money but mismanaged it and got into a lot of trouble. If there had been more EU oversight over how they spent the money, this might not have happened.. )

 

holystove, well there is another view that the EU 'fiddled' the Maastricht criteria to get Greece in as they were desperate to get as many countries on board as possible. I read somewhere about another country (Italy?) can't remember, who also didn't meet the criterea but still got in.

[Makis]

 

Well this is a new low. Greece wanted very much to be in the eurozone but wasn't allowed to ("by the EU elite..") because they didn't meet the Maastricht criteria (neither did Belgium at the time). However, because it was the (democratic) wish of the Greek people to join the euro, they were allowed to. Even in the midst of the euro-crisis in Greece a vast majority of Greeks wanted to stay in the euro. So the undemocratic thing would have been not to allow them to join in the first place or to throw them out now.

 

It is also a complete fallacy that only Germany benefited from the euro. It is however indeed a currency for strong economies, that's why the Maastrichts criteria are there; a country can only join the eurozone if it meets those criteria. Belgium, the Netherlands, .. all small countries who have benefited greatly from joining the eurozone.

--

 

(seperate point: what happened in Greece is actually an argument for more involvement of the EU. they got a lot of EU money but mismanaged it and got into a lot of trouble. If there had been more EU oversight over how they spent the money, this might not have happened.. )

Actually the thing with Greece was two-fold. First there definitely was a will in the eurozone to get them in, but the Greek government cooked the books to fill the criteria. If they hadn't they would never have been allowed in.

 

The problem with the euro is, as you say, that a common currency would require much tighter fiscal policies. Still, there has been definite advantages. They just tend not to be as tangible and only can be seen on the long run.

[johnh]

From The Guardian website.

 

Politics also helped Greece join the euro in 2001, although it was not until 2004 that Athens admitted entry figures had been fudged, the dodgy numbers were an open secret in Brussels. Many other countries were doing the same albeit on a smaller scale. Only later when Greece buckled under the weight of its debts did EU grandees say it had been a mistake to let Greece in.

 

 

I think its fairly clear that the EU were happy to let countries in who didn't meet the criteria. It certainly didn't do those countries any favours which is not something the EU can be proud of.

[StevO]

I'm a leave vote, but more because I feel optimistic about new opportunities. Sure things are fine in the EU, I just see leaving as an opportunity to grow rather than collapse. Maybe that's a bit naive, but while there are no facts on what will definitely happen I'm willing to take the risk.

[Matt]

From The Guardian website.

 

Politics also helped Greece join the euro in 2001, although it was not until 2004 that Athens admitted entry figures had been fudged, the dodgy numbers were an open secret in Brussels. Many other countries were doing the same albeit on a smaller scale. Only later when Greece buckled under the weight of its debts did EU grandees say it had been a mistake to let Greece in.

 

 

I think its fairly clear that the EU were happy to let countries in who didn't meet the criteria. It certainly didn't do those countries any favours which is not something the EU can be proud of.

if the EU just let countries join, why hasn't Hungary been accepted over the last 12 years? Edited June 15, 2016 by Matt

[Cornish Steve]

So, let's assume trade between Britain and EU stops. Which party is hit worse? You can trade with the rest of the world as you like but if you are outside of EU you trade on our terms, just like the Swiss. US is the biggest trade partner for Britain, but the next four biggest countries where Britain exports goods and services are in the EU (Germany, France, Netherlands, Ireland). https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx

 

As an example, let's say there is a commodity that is made both in Britain and some other EU member state. If Britain is outside the EU why would EU let Britain export that commodity freely to EU? Britain would almost certainly have to give bigger concessions to the EU to get that agreement. Unless Britain produces something no-one else does.

 

Europe is the only trading region with zero growth over the last decade. Britain would be free to increase trade with regions that are actually growing. We've been a trading nation for centuries, and done well thank you, so the EU can keep its "you'll shrivel and die without us" attitude.

 

That being said, I would vote "out" while wanting to remain "in" as a means of gaining the concessions needed for us to trade more effectively with other nations - to undo those handcuffs we've worn for too many years now. If we don't, we'll become increasingly powerless. Negotiation is all about leverage.

[Matt]

 

Europe is the only trading region with zero growth over the last decade. Britain would be free to increase trade with regions that are actually growing. We've been a trading nation for centuries, and done well thank you, so the EU can keep its "you'll shrivel and die without us" attitude.

 

That being said, I would vote "out" while wanting to remain "in" as a means of gaining the concessions needed for us to trade more effectively with other nations - to undo those handcuffs we've worn for too many years now. If we don't, we'll become increasingly powerless. Negotiation is all about leverage.

you ever tried negotiating for something you want with some one you've told you dont want to help? You're talking about having your cake and eating it to (I think that's the right phrase), it's incredibly selfish.

[MikeO]

Can I just say I wish the wider debate had been as respectful and (largely) as well articulated as it has been on here. No abuse; just people having their say.

 

Both camps could learn from us; the behaviour of both sides has been embarrassing.

 

Politics is usually a no-go area on a forum like this but we've lived up to the "thinking" tag, I think we should put some candidates forward in the next general election!

 

Nice one (though all you "out" voters are complete wankers ).

[johnh]

if the EU just let countries join, why hasn't Hungary been accepted over the last 12 years?

 

Matt, well maybe Hungary were honest and open that they didn't meet the criteria.

[johnh]

Can I just say I wish the wider debate had been as respectful and (largely) as well articulated as it has been on here. No abuse; just people having their say.

 

Both camps could learn from us; the behaviour of both sides has been embarrassing.

 

Politics is usually a no-go area on a forum like this but we've lived up to the "thinking" tag, I think we should put some candidates forward in the next general election!

 

Nice one (though all you "out" voters are complete wankers ).

 

Mike, well said, I agree. I have been keeping a record of all the 'Remainers' - and I know where you live.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Mike, well said, I agree. I have been keeping a record of all the 'Remainers' - and I know where you live.

 

And so do Boris and Donald.

[markjazzbassist]

if the EU just let countries join, why hasn't Hungary been accepted over the last 12 years?

 

?? they've been in since 2004.

[johnh]

Just thinking 'out of the box'. If England and Russia get banned by UEFA there could be an anti-Europe surge in voting for 'leave'?

[johnh]

 

?? they've been in since 2004.

 

Matt means joining the euro.

[Matt]

 

Matt, well maybe Hungary were honest and open that they didn't meet the criteria.

Whats honesty got to do with it though mate? They wanted in, the EU won't let them because they don't fulfill the necessary criteria (so far as I understand it anyway).

[Matt]

 

Matt means joining the euro.

Yeah, I'm getting tired, but pretty sure we got on to economies...

 

Right?

[johnh]

Whats honesty got to do with it though mate? They wanted in, the EU won't let them because they don't fulfill the necessary criteria (so far as I understand it anyway).

 

No, the difference with Greece is that Greece claimed to meet the criteria and fiddled the figures. It appears Brussels were aware of this but were happy to let them in. The EU couldn't let Hungary in because they couldn't be seen to be overriding the criteria.

[johnh]

Yeah, I'm getting tired, but pretty sure we got on to economies...

 

Right?

 

Yeah also, I'm doing this while watching the football. So ignore everything I post!

[Makis]

 

Europe is the only trading region with zero growth over the last decade. Britain would be free to increase trade with regions that are actually growing. We've been a trading nation for centuries, and done well thank you, so the EU can keep its "you'll shrivel and die without us" attitude.

 

That being said, I would vote "out" while wanting to remain "in" as a means of gaining the concessions needed for us to trade more effectively with other nations - to undo those handcuffs we've worn for too many years now. If we don't, we'll become increasingly powerless. Negotiation is all about leverage.

So effectively you want to replace your trade with Germany, France etc. with countries outside of Europe? Fair enough and good luck with that.

[Matt]

 

No, the difference with Greece is that Greece claimed to meet the criteria and fiddled the figures. It appears Brussels were aware of this but were happy to let them in. The EU couldn't let Hungary in because they couldn't be seen to be overriding the criteria.

so far as I understood Holystove before, that's not the case

[Cornish Steve]

So effectively you want to replace your trade with Germany, France etc. with countries outside of Europe? Fair enough and good luck with that.

 

I've traveled to 75 different countries on business, and I'm sure very many other Brits have, too. A big majority of my business has been outside the EU. Britain would do just fine. History rather proves that.