holystove Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me). If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins. The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out. Rubecula: on the age issue: I read that it's mostly (mostly; not all) older, white working class voters who have few or no educational qualifications who vote for UKIP. Also it's mostly older people who care most about national sovereignty and are "proud" of their country. One of the most important principles in EU law is the principle of subsidiarity. Which mean that the EU does not take action, unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level. This principle very much strengthens national sovereignty and ensures it is always in the best (common) interest for the EU to take action. Rubecula: regarding the EU president: it's not a president per se; only someone who head the European Council for a couple of years (this position used to rotate between European leaders of each country every six months) I would agree that there are a lot of problems with the democratic deficit in the EU, but only a closer union can solve those, which is exactly the opposite of what Cameron negotiated. rubecula, MikeO and Chach 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36353145 Lord owens piece was very interesting. Edited May 22, 2016 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Lord owens piece was very interesting. You toss a coin mate or decide who you believe or go with your gut. Said it before but nobody knows for sure what the consequences will be one way or the other, everyone's guessing. NHS future is massively close to my heart (as I know it is to yours). I've explained my position already more than once, probably best if I now leave this thread alone (though I probably won't ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Its not a dictatorship its an oligarchy. It is run by 'elites' and the whole structure is designed so that neither they, nor their successors, can be dispensed with. (I was going to say voted out but there is no vote for these elites.) In some ways it would be better if it was a dictatorship as dictators can be overthrown but with EU structures and so many countries the only 'out' is through a referendum. It will be the worst mistake this country has ever made if we vote to stay in. I voted in favour in the last referendum when we thought we were voting to join the Common Market. We were conned by (particularly) Edward Heath, who was a Europhile, and also by Harold Wilson. Both knew exactly what the 'con' was. Politicians of whatever party are the most self-serving element of our society. They see failed politicians like the Kinnocks become multi-millionaires courtesy of the EU, so its little wonder that so many of them support Remain. On the other hand I don't feet particularly stongly one way or the other. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me). If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins. The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out. Rubecula: on the age issue: I read that it's mostly (mostly; not all) older, white working class voters who have few or no educational qualifications who vote for UKIP. Also it's mostly older people who care most about national sovereignty and are "proud" of their country. One of the most important principles in EU law is the principle of subsidiarity. Which mean that the EU does not take action, unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level. This principle very much strengthens national sovereignty and ensures it is always in the best (common) interest for the EU to take action. Rubecula: regarding the EU president: it's not a president per se; only someone who head the European Council for a couple of years (this position used to rotate between European leaders of each country every six months) I would agree that there are a lot of problems with the democratic deficit in the EU, but only a closer union can solve those, which is exactly the opposite of what Cameron negotiated. Saw you were looking at the thread and well remember your background Holystove so I was hoping you'd post your opinion. Thanks for it. holystove and rubecula 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 John, the British government leading Referendum, how are they much different from oligarchs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 At the end of the day, modern politics is all the same bullshit isn't it?! My gut is voting OUT...simply because I do not like what the EU had become. I hold no fears over us as a nation being out of the EU. I've got a bit more reading up to do yet. But to be honest, I'm sick to death of the whole system in this Country, the EU, and in the developed world as a whole. The whole set up between Governments, Banks, Big Business and the lawyers that represent them is just one big scam. Romey 1878 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Question for the OUT people - will you be mad when Scotland votes out of the U.K.? Logic would say you would support them but I'm guessing you want out of the EU but want the UK to stay together. Edited May 22, 2016 by markjazzbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Question for the OUT people - will you be mad when Scotland votes out of the U.K.? Logic would say you would support them but I'm guessing you want out of the EU but want the UK to stay together. I couldn't give a shit what the Scots do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Question for the OUT people - will you be mad when Scotland votes out of the U.K.? Logic would say you would support them but I'm guessing you want out of the EU but want the UK to stay together. SNP wants to be out of the UK but in Europe. Make of that what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 SNP wants to be out of the UK but in Europe. Make of that what you will. 2 words; historical bitterness Quinn31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 2 words; historical bitterness Don't agree; politically they're past that, Salmond and then Nicola Sturgeon are above it; impressive leaders. My two words would be "self interest". They know they're better off in than out. As opposed to people like Boris, who has chosen his camp purely for his own personal ambition (next PM). He'd be campaigning day and night for "in" if it fitted his personal agenda. Intelligent guy who has come to realise he's most likely to achieve his ambition by playing the buffoon. Edit: Dammit, I was staying out of this . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 I saw this in the comments section of the FT some weeks ago and it made me smile. 'Leaving the EU should not be feared or overcomplicated :- It's very simple - There will be NO negotiating. The UK simply sends the EU bureaucrats and the heads of state of Germany and France our biggest trading partners a single A4 sheet. On it is written, thank you for the recent cooperation - now that the UK has left the EU, we wanted to show our appreciation for past endeavours and set out the future which should be a smooth interaction on trade. The UK will trade with all EU member states on the same terms as before. The trade is on goods and services and clearly there will be no further discussions regarding immigration, legal matters, foreign policy, climate change or anything regarding fiscal or internal economic policy, as these are matters for the British government and the people of Britain. We don't expect that any of these omissions will affect trade, as equal trade terms are in the best interest of all EU nations concerned and Britain. Should barriers to trade be erected by any state, then a reciprocation will take place, but clearly this is in no one's interests. We wish you all well with your continued EU experiment.' There are idiots on both sides of the campaign who you never think you'd align yourself with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Trade is one thing, but what of the millions of Britons living abroad (especially those who cannot vote)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 You toss a coin mate or decide who you believe or go with your gut. Said it before but nobody knows for sure what the consequences will be one way or the other, everyone's guessing. NHS future is massively close to my heart (as I know it is to yours). I've explained my position already more than once, probably best if I now leave this thread alone (though I probably won't ). Totally with you on that one. The NHS is one of the greatest things this country has done. Who knows what the future holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Luckily (in my opinion) the majority of people are seeing sense, "in" currently 1/5 with the bookies... http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result (not wishing to detract from out voters who are perfectly entitled to their view) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me). If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins. The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out. Rubecula: on the age issue: I read that it's mostly (mostly; not all) older, white working class voters who have few or no educational qualifications who vote for UKIP. Also it's mostly older people who care most about national sovereignty and are "proud" of their country. One of the most important principles in EU law is the principle of subsidiarity. Which mean that the EU does not take action, unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level. This principle very much strengthens national sovereignty and ensures it is always in the best (common) interest for the EU to take action. Rubecula: regarding the EU president: it's not a president per se; only someone who head the European Council for a couple of years (this position used to rotate between European leaders of each country every six months) I would agree that there are a lot of problems with the democratic deficit in the EU, but only a closer union can solve those, which is exactly the opposite of what Cameron negotiated. Wonderful post my friend and I can really see your point on this I agree about Cameron, and every right wing politician. Sadly I am not enamoured by the left either. At this moment in time I find it very difficult to find enough redeeming features for either side, be it in or out of EU. Question for the OUT people - will you be mad when Scotland votes out of the U.K.? Logic would say you would support them but I'm guessing you want out of the EU but want the UK to stay together. Honest answer here is if I was Scottish I think I would be very anti Union. But I am not, and shame to say it I do not want them to leave us. However, it is entirely up to them and is their option to choose, not mine. I hope they get what they want and deserve, and the same for us. I believe in democracy, even if the final choice is not what I want personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsy Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 If we vote out we are leaving the tories wide open to do what the hell they like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Not really Mogsy as they are still accountable to the British people, and the electorate. But if you are worried by all means vote to stay in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 If we vote out we are leaving the tories wide open to do what the hell they like!the people did that already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 I believe in democracy, even if the final choice is not what I want personally. The British electoral system is a completely undemocratic version of "democracy" though Rubes; at least the Euro elections use PR so are really representative of what the people want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 The British electoral system is a completely undemocratic version of "democracy" though Rubes; at least the Euro elections use PR so are really representative of what the people want. I must disagree with you Mike as much as you say nice things about them, I simply can not see it myself. But as I say you are entitled to think and vote the way you wish, and I will abide by the decision that the British public reach quite happily. I just think it would be better for us to be outside the EU, at least for the immediate future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Staying in the EU will only hasten the privatisation of the NHS due to TTIP which those fuckers are trying to push through. I want no part of that. Once the NHS is privatised it'll never go back, it'll be lost forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Lord owens piece was very interesting. Oh the irony in these comments. In the US, the Democrats have looked at Britain as the model for universal healthcare, whereas in Britain his claim is that NHS administrators look to the US model! The truth is that the level of healthcare in the US far exceeds the level in Britain (unpopular though it may be to say that), but it's very unevenly distributed based on ability to pay. That's always been the dilemma and will continue to be. For David Owen to support the Brexit is an about-face of remarkable proportions. In the early 80s, when I was a parliamentary candidate for the Liberals, David Owen (and David Steel at the time) were among the biggest proponents of the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Are their any national polls right now about where the vote stands? This is fascinating to me, such a massive vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsy Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Not really Mogsy as they are still accountable to the British people, and the electorate. But if you are worried by all means vote to stay in. The British public voted them in in the first place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) If 'in' is 1/5 on with the bookies, that's good news for the 'outers'. The bookies got it spectacularly wrong at the last election, as did the pollsters. I won a bet on the last election and struck another bet at the time. That Brexit would win 55% to 45%. Have just looked at the poll above. Edited May 23, 2016 by johnh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Issues aside. Can I just say that I hate the term "Brexit", Portmanteau word that's media invented and totally unnecessary, same as "Grexit" was. Could we not just speak English? Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 24, 2016 Report Share Posted May 24, 2016 http://newsthump.com/2016/05/23/brexit-would-spark-year-of-recession-claims-man-who-hasnt-got-a-forecast-right-in-six-years/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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