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Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
      26
    • Leave
      24


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Oh yes, sorry. Freedom of movement for workers is defined in article 45 in the TFEU (Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union).

 

What are the main points in the Brexit camp? From where I live one of the main points is immigration. Especially the Eastern Europeans working there. That's why I assume England would tighten the immigration laws. Plus not being in the EU would mean TFEU would also not apply, not until an agreement between Britain and the EU can be renegotiated, which would take years. Just dealing with the Brexit would take two years so negotiating all the other treaties would take who knows how many years.

Interesting, thanks for clarifying :)

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But you don't think the stay party are scaremongering.

They have gone down every avenue to scare people into voting to stay in.

The stay argument seems to be backed up by a few facts though, while the leave party are telling me... I might not be any worse off.

Thinking rather selfishly if I am honest. My life has grown over the last five years.

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Just had a thought while I was in the car; if we vote out does that mean UKIP will be dissolved as their "raison d'être" has been fulfilled?

 

If so, just say no (and don't inhale)...

 

55e97e37c36188122b8b45b6.jpg

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As I see it, the difference between the arguments is that the Remain side deals with facts - or at least conjuctures based oh them - while Brexit goes for emotions and every time they are asked if they know what will happen the answer is "I don't know". Brexit's tactic is difficult for the Remain side, because how do you campaign when the other side just ignores facts? Just like what Trump is doing, how can the other candidates respond? Trying to be plain rational just doesn't work with a lot of the voters.

 

So you believe Cameron when he says Brexit could result in World War 3? And Osborne saying house prices will fall following Brexit when the law of supply and demand will dictate the opposite for years to come.

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So you believe Cameron when he says Brexit could result in World War 3? And Osborne saying house prices will fall following Brexit when the law of supply and demand will dictate the opposite for years to come.

Er...

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So you believe Cameron when he says Brexit could result in World War 3? And Osborne saying house prices will fall following Brexit when the law of supply and demand will dictate the opposite for years to come.

 

First bit I can't find anywhere that he's actually said that, he's said things like..

 

"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?
"I would never be so rash to make that assumption."
....and headline writers have twisted it (unless you can find a quote confirming it, I can't).
Second part if we reduce immigration and therefor population growth demand for houses will inevitably fall; no guarantee whatsoever that house prices will continue to rise, we've had crashes in the past where people have found themselves in negative equity. I think that's likely to happen again if we leave, unless you're lucky enough to be in London/South East.

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.David Cameron's history is rubbish. Whatever the virtues of remaining in EU his idea that 'whenever we turn our backs on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it' is nonsense. As for Brexit 'raising the risk of war' it is project fear gone mad.

 

From the Guardian website.

 

 

There has always been an excess of population over property. This is why house prices have increased over the last 60+ years. House prices were going up before Labour's 'open door' policy on immigration (which may have accelerated the increase.) If we stopped immigration all together there would still be a shortage of houses and prices will continue to rise. Osborne is clutching at straws.

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.David Cameron's history is rubbish. Whatever the virtues of remaining in EU his idea that 'whenever we turn our backs on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it' is nonsense. As for Brexit 'raising the risk of war' it is project fear gone mad.

 

From the Guardian website.

 

 

There has always been an excess of population over property. This is why house prices have increased over the last 60+ years. House prices were going up before Labour's 'open door' policy on immigration (which may have accelerated the increase.) If we stopped immigration all together there would still be a shortage of houses and prices will continue to rise. Osborne is clutching at straws.

 

No evidence of the Cameron WW3 claim I see. Like I said, right wing press headline writer invention.

 

And house prices haven't always increased over the least sixty years; we were in the EU when millions (my brother included) were stuck in negative equity for years. Owning property is always a good idea long term I agree, but it's not risk free in or out.

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Well the last two World Wars were wars started in Europe, it is difficult to not think the meaning of 'risk of war'' in Europe isn't intended to mean 'World War'.

 

My first house bought in 1959 was 1,750 pounds, I recently looked on a website and saw it had recently been sold for 120,000 pounds.

I agree there have been 'blips' along the way but it is a simple law of economics. If there is a demand for scarce goods then the price will rise. (Sorry 'tend' to rise - economics speak!)

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"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?

"I would never be so rash to make that assumption."

 

Looking at this objectively, it really is a veiled threat. How else could it be viewed? Can you see us going to war with Germany again? On what basis is such a claim justified?

 

Second part if we reduce immigration and therefor population growth demand for houses will inevitably fall; no guarantee whatsoever that house prices will continue to rise, we've had crashes in the past where people have found themselves in negative equity. I think that's likely to happen again if we leave, unless you're lucky enough to be in London/South East.

 

We can't have it all ways. I'm sure there have been shock headlines in the papers about immigrants pushing up home prices, making it difficult for local to buy their own homes. So now there's the chance that house prices might drop, and the argument is that this hurts existing home owners! Talk about selective arguments!

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So you believe Cameron when he says Brexit could result in World War 3?

 

Well the last two World Wars were wars started in Europe, it is difficult to not think the meaning of 'risk of war'' in Europe isn't intended to mean 'World War'.

 

Contradictory John sorry; you say he said it but then you backtrack because he didn't.

 

Leave campaign in a nutshell, not that the remain side are any better. Daft claims on both sides.

 

Believe nothing and vote on your instinct would be my advice for everyone, but make sure you vote.

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Looking at this objectively, it really is a veiled threat. How else could it be viewed? Can you see us going to war with Germany again? On what basis is such a claim justified?

 

I'm sure he's looking well beyond Germany, Russia or the middle east is the potential threat.

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I'm sure he's looking well beyond Germany, Russia or the middle east is the potential threat.

 

Why would Brexit contribute to a war with Russia or the middle east? Let's not lose sight of the fact that Cameron's comments were made in the context of Brexit.

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I'm sure he's looking well beyond Germany, Russia or the middle east is the potential threat.

 

What's that got to do with Brexit? Let's not lose sight of the fact that Cameron's comments were made in the context of Brexit.

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Why would Brexit contribute to a war with Russia or the middle east? Let's not lose sight of the fact that Cameron's comments were made in the context of Brexit.

 

It wouldn't; it's just more likely than a war with Germany. Potential talk of WW3 (which you continue to offer no evidence of Cameron suggesting) doesn't restrict itself to Europe by definition.

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It wouldn't; it's just more likely than a war with Germany. Potential talk of WW3 (which you continue to offer no evidence of Cameron suggesting) doesn't restrict itself to Europe by definition.

Mike, now you're not answering my questions. Why would Brexit contribute to any war?

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Mike, now you're not answering my questions. Why would Brexit contribute to any war?

 

I don't think it would. WW3 won't happen either way, nobody outside of the headline writers has said it it wiill.

 

Red herring.

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I woke up this morning to find a piece of paper on the door mat from Labour telling me to vote remain. At least that flyer wasn't paid for with tax payers money, I don't think anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure if WW3 happens it will be to do with Russia or Korea, unless the rest of the EU try to invade Britain if we leave.

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Major's comment about disloyalty could also apply to Corbyn, who was serially disloyal to every Labour leader.

 

If we had any kind of effective opposition in this country, calls to vote Remain to protect the NHS would not be needed. How weak and ineffectual a party Labour has become. If they don't like the Eton cabal dismantling the NHS, then they should get their act together. It really is pathetic.

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Corbyn backing Remain after years of being anti-EU is doing Brexit no harm. Asked 'How enthusiastic about the EU are you, on a scale of one to 10?' His answer - 'Seven and a half'. With dynamic endorsements like that, Remain must be home and dry!

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I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!)

 

Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms.

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I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!)

 

Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms.

 

Yes, Steve, exactly my view. The only proviso being - whatever concessions we get must be cast in concrete and incapable of being cancelled or amended by any future treaty change.

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I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!)

 

Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms.

I was confident the country wouldn't vote the Tory shitbags back for a second term, but there you go...

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I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!)

 

Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms.

 

I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more).

 

If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off.

 

Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 :).

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Somebody changed their mind? Must admit I never noticed that, but it proves a point, we are short on genuine facts over the outcome either way. Which is why I will vote with my heart when I get to the polling station. My head is already banjaxed with the nonsensical arguments from both sides.

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I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more).

 

If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off.

 

Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 :).

 

You, maybe inadvertently, hit the nail on the head: "I'LL join YOUR club." It's supposed to be OUR club.

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I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more).

 

If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off.

 

Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 :).

Well, the rules suit some countries more than others. The obvious example being the euro and Germany and Greece. Germany are getting 'special treatment' because the euro is effectively a German currency. Might as well change its name back to the Mark.

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Brexiters are a funny bunch, I have to say. I guess many of you have to make up (poor) excuses so that you don't have to admit it's just about xenophobia as that would associate you with the UKIP? I mean it's not news that Brits are xenophobic even without voting for UKIP so why bother with the other excuses? As an outsider I have tried to find a single fact that supports Britain leaving EU but it's all either emotional or basically complete hogwash (plus not a small amount of lies).

 

I think you lot have the right to make your own mistakes so I'm not interested in changing someone's mind (and I can see that most have already made up their mind anyways). If you vote to leave then you leave. But please don't fool yourself into thinking you somehow get more leverage over the rest of Europe that way. Which is more important, rest of EU to British trade or Britain to the trade of the rest of the EU? There's very little leverage for Brits, you WILL have to make more concession than you do now. In fact the concessions EU have given to Britain to keep you in annoy a lot of high-ranking people in France and Germany already, there is absolutely no way the trade agreements with a Britain outside of EU would be better for you lot. Plus if you wanted to export something to the remaining EU your products and services would have to comply with laws you had 0% input in.

 

The thing about WWIII is OTT but the basic idea is that EU is weaker without Britain. Russia will have even less opposition to their expansion so the risk they step over some boundary grows greater. Putin specifically would love for EU to break down as after that there would be no real opposition in Europe with USA turning its attention to Far East. Remember, Russia took a large patch of land in Europe and is keeping a war in Central Europe going already. What would an EU-less Europe do if it started pressing other neighbours?

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You, maybe inadvertently, hit the nail on the head: "I'LL join YOUR club." It's supposed to be OUR club.

I think that's the crux of the issue. Britain has always distanced itself from the rest of the Europe. A common theme seems to be "us" vs "them".

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Avaaz, who I strongly agree with on many things...


Brexit is the dream of the Trumps and Farages of this world. And like them, the Leave campaign has risen in the polls mainly through fantastic lies delivered by rag media.


The truth is, Europe is a no-brainer. The challenges we face are, by far, best met together. Our unity is a force for peace, for human and labour rights, for environmental sustainability, for our future. And that's why those who want to take us backward on all those fronts, also want Brexit.


We have 9 days left, and we're going to fight, every hour of it, for Britain, and for Europe.

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Brexiters are a funny bunch, I have to say. I guess many of you have to make up (poor) excuses so that you don't have to admit it's just about xenophobia as that would associate you with the UKIP? I mean it's not news that Brits are xenophobic even without voting for UKIP so why bother with the other excuses? As an outsider I have tried to find a single fact that supports Britain leaving EU but it's all either emotional or basically complete hogwash (plus not a small amount of lies).

 

I think you lot have the right to make your own mistakes so I'm not interested in changing someone's mind (and I can see that most have already made up their mind anyways). If you vote to leave then you leave. But please don't fool yourself into thinking you somehow get more leverage over the rest of Europe that way. Which is more important, rest of EU to British trade or Britain to the trade of the rest of the EU? There's very little leverage for Brits, you WILL have to make more concession than you do now. In fact the concessions EU have given to Britain to keep you in annoy a lot of high-ranking people in France and Germany already, there is absolutely no way the trade agreements with a Britain outside of EU would be better for you lot. Plus if you wanted to export something to the remaining EU your products and services would have to comply with laws you had 0% input in.

 

The thing about WWIII is OTT but the basic idea is that EU is weaker without Britain. Russia will have even less opposition to their expansion so the risk they step over some boundary grows greater. Putin specifically would love for EU to break down as after that there would be no real opposition in Europe with USA turning its attention to Far East. Remember, Russia took a large patch of land in Europe and is keeping a war in Central Europe going already. What would an EU-less Europe do if it started pressing other neighbours?

 

If you're trying to understand the biggest single reason why so many Britons want to leave the EU, you just gave a prime example.

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The thing about WWIII is OTT but the basic idea is that EU is weaker without Britain. Russia will have even less opposition to their expansion so the risk they step over some boundary grows greater. Putin specifically would love for EU to break down as after that there would be no real opposition in Europe with USA turning its attention to Far East. Remember, Russia took a large patch of land in Europe and is keeping a war in Central Europe going already. What would an EU-less Europe do if it started pressing other neighbours?

 

The EU was initially marketed as an economic bloc. NATO is there for defence. Once again, the EU is far too big for its boots and should not be telling member states what it can and cannot do.

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The EU was initially marketed as an economic bloc. NATO is there for defence. Once again, the EU is far too big for its boots and should not be telling member states what it can and cannot do.

So what should it do then? Hold meetings and do absolutely nothing?

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The EU was initially marketed as an economic bloc. NATO is there for defence. Once again, the EU is far too big for its boots and should not be telling member states what it can and cannot do.

 

Initially the European Coal and Steel Community, °1951, was created to have economic alliances between the countries of Europe so there would never be war amongst them again.

 

The EU, °1992, was never only intended to be an economic bloc because it was established after the complete integration of the internal market. One of the fundamental principles of the EU is the evolution towards an ever closer union in every aspect (political, cultural, ...).

 

So in essence, yes the EU should tell member states what to do.

-

If you view the EU as a group of member states who each want to get the best possible deal for themselves, then by all means you should vote leave, both for yourself and for the betterment of the Union.

 

The way I see the EU:

- brings peace throughout Europe

- allows me to have a voice in a globalized world (EU is at the forfront of the fight against global warming, EU fights for human rights, ...)

- is the best opportunity for less wealthy European nations to get a better standard of living

- it protects me from unlawful actions from my own government

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Initially the European Coal and Steel Community, °1951, was created to have economic alliances between the countries of Europe so there would never be war amongst them again.

 

The EU, °1992, was never only intended to be an economic bloc because it was established after the complete integration of the internal market. One of the fundamental principles of the EU is the evolution towards an ever closer union in every aspect (political, cultural, ...).

 

So in essence, yes the EU should tell member states what to do.

-

If you view the EU as a group of member states who each want to get the best possible deal for themselves, then by all means you should vote leave, both for yourself and for the betterment of the Union.

 

The way I see the EU:

- brings peace throughout Europe

- allows me to have a voice in a globalized world (EU is at the forfront of the fight against global warming, EU fights for human rights, ...)

- is the best opportunity for less wealthy European nations to get a better standard of living

- it protects me from unlawful actions from my own government

 

The bold bit is (sadly) the thing that puts most out voters off. As long as we're OK screw everyone else, they really don't care about the rest of Europe/the World. In fact as long as they're OK they don't care about anyone outside of their front door; £2 a month direct debit to Oxfam salves the conscience but the basic human instinct for many is greed.

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The bold bit is (sadly) the thing that puts most out voters off. As long as we're OK screw everyone else, they really don't care about the rest of Europe/the World. In fact as long as they're OK they don't care about anyone outside of their front door; £2 a month direct debit to Oxfam salves the conscience but the basic human instinct for many is greed.

The best opportunity for less wealthy nations to get a better standard of living. Like Greece you mean?

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The best opportunity for less wealthy nations to get a better standard of living. Like Greece you mean?

 

It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

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It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

I'm still convinced that the pressure of hosting the Olympics all that time ago has been a massive factor. The money they threw at that one-off event on stadia and infrastructure that's never really be used since was unreal, as was the spending to get it done on time.

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Problem with Greece is that tourism has gone 'all inclusive' - the money isnt getting to all those fantastic restaurants and tavernas etc.

Loved the islands, even if I didn't like the heat. Spent a week in Aegina, had a fantastic time for the most part. I remember waiting for a restaurant to open for lunch, sitting in the harbour, when 2 fishermen turned up with their catch and walked over to the waiter. You could see them staking the ice boxes with the catch and, once done, they opened the restaurant. One of the fishermen was our waiter, and we had the most amazing fish I've ever had. Just as well, since they charged us 60Euro for it!

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It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

Fair point about Greece's problems being 'home-grown', particularly the fact that hardly anyone pays tax. However, a significant chunk of their problems are due to the euro. How they thought they could operate with a currency designed for the Germans is mind boggling. On the other hand, they may not have had a choice the EU being as undemocratic as it is.

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Problem with Greece is that tourism has gone 'all inclusive' - the money isnt getting to all those fantastic restaurants and tavernas etc.

 

Don't get me started on AI; one of the big hotels in the resort nearest where we stay (go there to eat at times, the resort, not the hotel) has gone AI this year. Locals are really worried although given the reviews the place is getting on TripAdvisor are enough to put anyone off; it's being roasted.

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I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more).

 

If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off.

 

Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 :).

 

Sorry,only just spotted this post. Article in the Telegraph today addresses the 'club rules' issue.

 

'...........the argument that we are in the club and should just obey the rules is fatuous, because the rules and the membership have changed so much since we joined.'

 

The problem is that the rules will continue to change and at an ever increasing rate and there is little or no chance that we can stop it. This is the main reason why there is a bigger risk in voting to stay in.

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Sorry,only just spotted this post. Article in the Telegraph today addresses the 'club rules' issue.

 

'...........the argument that we are in the club and should just obey the rules is fatuous, because the rules and the membership have changed so much since we joined.'

 

The problem is that the rules will continue to change and at an ever increasing rate and there is little or no chance that we can stop it. This is the main reason why there is a bigger risk in voting to stay in.

Staying in, we have a chance of changing things (whether its big or small, who knows what will happen). If we leave, the EU Superpower will develop without our influence and that's the much bigger risk long-term for me.

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It's not a quick fix; it may take generations but it remains the aim. Greece's problems are down to their own greed, people need to be educated.

 

(I realise this is a Utopian ideal because people will always be greedy and not really give a toss about anyone outside their immediate circle but I live in hope)

 

Yes, it is down to greed, but who picks up the tab? I'm all for helping less wealthy nations, and outsourcing is the best form of foreign aid the world has ever seen, but that doesn't extend to bailing out countries who spend lavishly on their own welfare and then demand that the EU bail them out. We're a responsible nation, and the least we can do is demand responsibility from our partners.

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The EU arrogantly telling Britain how it's going to be, how they can boss us around, how we can and cannot trade, and how we're oh-so-dependent on them. Such an attitude, frankly, makes people livid - and rightly so.

Honestly, thats just politics in general, and not soley the case of the EU

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Yes, it is down to greed, but who picks up the tab? I'm all for helping less wealthy nations, and outsourcing is the best form of foreign aid the world has ever seen, but that doesn't extend to bailing out countries who spend lavishly on their own welfare and then demand that the EU bail them out. We're a responsible nation, and the least we can do is demand responsibility from our partners.

 

I agree, that's why I said it may take generations and a lot of education. If one of my kids went bankrupt I'd help them get back on their feet and then sit them down and work out why it happened and try to put them on the right course so it didn't happen again. I wouldn't disown them.

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