Brexit...

[holystove]

Mike, the reason I didn't address your points is that I wasn't quite sure what you meant. The House of Lords are irrelevant. They can give advice and occasionally turf back some issues to the Commons but nothing of a serious nature. On the really important issues they are expected to support the Government. They have no real power. It will cease to exist in its current format in the next 10 years.

Do not understand your point about the civil service? Every government in history has been supported by an administrative base. The EU Commission which consists of 28 members has a support staff of 23,000. So what? Apart from criticism about 'jobs for the boys' it happens everywhere. I repeat, in the last 2 General Elections the government has changed in Britain. In spite of all the problems affecting the EU with the euro and the economies of countries in the south, tell me who has been voted out in the EU. There is not even a procedure for doing it.

 

Every five years there's an election for the EU Parliament? After the elections of 2014 The European People's Party remained the biggest in the EU Parliament and therefor it was a member of their party that became Commission president. (Juncker). If the socialists would have the most votes, it would have been a socialist; etc... Many times the position has switched parties.

The only thing that might be perceived as undemocratic about how the Commission president is chosen, is that the EU member states have a big input; but I assume that's not a problem for you as the British PM has at several times blocked a candidate the UK feared was to progressive.

 

During the 5-year term of a Commission there is Parliamentary oversight; for example in the 90's The Santer Commission was forced to step down by the EU Parliament.

 

 

Not saying you should vote IN, but it seems to me your biggest problems with the EU stem from a lack of knowledge of procedure. I'm happy to clarify other such issues you might have.

[johnh]

 

Every five years there's an election for the EU Parliament? After the elections of 2014 The European People's Party remained the biggest in the EU Parliament and therefor it was a member of their party that became Commission president. (Juncker). If the socialists would have the most votes, it would have been a socialist; etc... Many times the position has switched parties.

The only thing that might be perceived as undemocratic about how the Commission president is chosen, is that the EU member states have a big input; but I assume that's not a problem for you as the British PM has at several times blocked a candidate the UK feared was to progressive.

 

During the 5-year term of a Commission there is Parliamentary oversight; for example in the 90's The Santer Commission was forced to step down by the EU Parliament.

 

 

Not saying you should vote IN, but it seems to me your biggest problems with the EU stem from a lack of knowledge of procedure. I'm happy to clarify other such issues you might have.

 

I'll take you up on that holystove.

 

If I decide that Cameron is a plonker (I do) and the Tories aren't doing a very good job and I don't like their manifesto, at General Election time I go down to my constituency polling station and cast my vote for someone else. By the next morning, I know if the Government has changed.

 

Now please explain how the same procedure works in the EU.

[MikeO]

 

I'll take you up on that holystove.

 

If I decide that Cameron is a plonker (I do) and the Tories aren't doing a very good job and I don't like their manifesto, at General Election time I go down to my constituency polling station and cast my vote for someone else. By the next morning, I know if the Government has changed.

 

Now please explain how the same procedure works in the EU.

 

But your vote has no value whatsoever if you happen to live in a Tory safe seat (as I sadly have done all my life). The government is decided by the few people who live in marginal constituencies; that's not democratic imo.

[StevO]

Global politics needs massive reform. Every country has a case of jobs for the boys and the same elitist people get put in charge by their fathers friends and old school mates. Happens all over the planet, apart from the third world countries where the guy with the biggest artillery takes charge. Maybe after Trump becomes president the USA will change their voting procedures, and possibly we could follow suit after Boris is PM. Start again from scratch, just without anymore wars please.

[Romey 1878]

Global politics needs massive reform. Every country has a case of jobs for the boys and the same elitist people get put in charge by their fathers friends and old school mates. Happens all over the planet, apart from the third world countries where the guy with the biggest artillery takes charge. Maybe after Trump becomes president the USA will change their voting procedures, and possibly we could follow suit after Boris is PM. Start again from scratch, just without anymore wars please.

There won't be a world to reform if Trump and Boris are in charge.

[StevO]

Only one way to find out. Vote Boris!

[Romey 1878]

Only one way to find out. Vote Boris!

I'd rather die.

[johnh]

 

But your vote has no value whatsoever if you happen to live in a Tory safe seat (as I sadly have done all my life). The government is decided by the few people who live in marginal constituencies; that's not democratic imo.

 

I also live in a Tory safe seat, which means that most people who live in the constituency want a Tory government. Isn't that democracy? Since the war there have been about equal governments for Labour and Conservative, which seems democratic to me. The Liberals want proportional representation because they always lose. The electorate don't want them governing the country. The real problem is not the electoral system it is the apathy of the electorate, not enough people vote. Should it be made compulsory?

[MikeO]

 

I also live in a Tory safe seat, which means that most people who live in the constituency want a Tory government. Isn't that democracy? Since the war there have been about equal governments for Labour and Conservative, which seems democratic to me. The Liberals want proportional representation because they always lose. The electorate don't want them governing the country. The real problem is not the electoral system it is the apathy of the electorate, not enough people vote. Should it be made compulsory?

 

Not in my opinion because in any given constituency if 15001 vote Tory, 14999 vote Labour and 14998 vote Liberal and/or other then Tory get 100% of the representation for 50.001% of the vote and 49.999% get ignored; I don't see how that's right.

 

I agree apathy is a problem but I don't think going compulsory is the answer, there's a section of society totally devoid of any knowledge or interest in politics who will never engage at any cost; forcing them to choose would be pointless.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Not in my opinion because in any given constituency if 15001 vote Tory, 14999 vote Labour and 14998 vote Liberal and/or other then Tory get 100% of the representation for 50.001% of the vote and 49.999% get ignored.

 

Actually, they get 100% of the representation for 33.334% of the vote and 66.666% get ignored - and that's assuming there are no minor parties in the election.

 

In one election in the 70s, the Liberals received over 20% of the vote, I believe, and fewer than 1% of MPs. This is why they pushed so strongly for proportional representation of some sort (STV being their preferred option). I was an approved parliamentary candidate for the Liberals at the time, and sometimes you felt it was almost not worth bothering.

[MikeO]

 

Actually, they get 100% of the representation for 33.334% of the vote and 66.666% get ignored - and that's assuming there are no minor parties in the election.

 

In one election in the 70s, the Liberals received over 20% of the vote, I believe, and fewer than 1% of MPs. This is why they pushed so strongly for proportional representation of some sort (STV being their preferred option). I was an approved parliamentary candidate for the Liberals at the time, and sometimes you felt it was almost not worth bothering.

 

True enough, my bad logic but point reinforced even more strongly.

 

Historically the Liberals have suffered massive under-representation for decades given the amount of the electorate who've voted for them.

 

Currently out of favour for the coalition and the concessions they gave in the last parliament, but they'll be back as a third force soon enough imo; UKIP are a passing laughable discrepancy.

[pete0]

http://www.mattoffact.co.uk/defence-system-vote-remain/

[holystove]

 

I'll take you up on that holystove.

 

If I decide that Cameron is a plonker (I do) and the Tories aren't doing a very good job and I don't like their manifesto, at General Election time I go down to my constituency polling station and cast my vote for someone else. By the next morning, I know if the Government has changed.

 

Now please explain how the same procedure works in the EU.

 

Thanks for following up John.

 

First of all, the general direction of the EU and the major issues are decided by the European Council in which every president/prime minister/bundeskanselier/.. is represented.

Secondly you have the Council, which groups ministers/secretaries according to the policy area to be discussed; for example envirmonmental, judicial, interior, ...

 

Who sits in both these Councils is decided by national elections. If you want Corbyn to be in the European Council instead of Cameron, you can vote for Corbyn and hope he becomes prime minister. If the UK government is exclusively Labour, then all the Councils will only have policitians from Labour.

 

Who sits in the EU Parliament, which, together with the Council, is the main decision-making body of the EU, is decided by elections every five years. You can vote directly for your candidate of choice. If the party you vote for wins the election (EU wide), it will be a member of that party who is elected Commission President. The Tories are part of the "European Conservatives and Reformists", Labour is part of the "Socialists and Democrats".

 

As you see, in principle it is quite the same as the situation you described regarding national elections.

Main differences:

- in the EU you are 1 of 500 million, while in the UK you are 1 of 60 million.

- the EU is a supra-national organisation (not a country) therefor you have institutions like the Council whose members are decided by national elections per member state instead of EU wide elections. Hopefully in the not so distant future, members of the Council will be chosen from the European Parliament.

[Matt]

How do you vote directly? Is this something to register for or is the current PM supposedly speaking on your behalf? (I realise I'm asking stupid questions but its Friday and thinking isn't on my mind this morning)

[holystove]

How do you vote directly? Is this something to register for or is the current PM supposedly speaking on your behalf? (I realise I'm asking stupid questions but its Friday and thinking isn't on my mind this morning)

 

By voting directly for the European Parliament, I meant that you can cast a vote for someone who if he or she gets enough votes will be a member of the European Parliament without any input/interference/.. from any national authority... Don't know if it is the correct term in English .

 

I don't know if you have to register to vote for the European Parliament in the UK; it depends on your country. Where I live, voting is compulsory so no registering required for any election (local, regional, federal or european).

[Matt]

 

By voting directly for the European Parliament, I meant that you can cast a vote for someone who if he or she gets enough votes will be a member of the European Parliament without any input/interference/.. from any national authority... Don't know if it is the correct term in English .

 

I don't know if you have to register to vote for the European Parliament in the UK; it depends on your country. Where I live, voting is compulsory so no registering required for any election (local, regional, federal or european).

I'll have a gander then. Currently I can't vote anywhere (neither the UK or Switzerland) so it would be nice if I had some way of voicing my opinion...

[Hafnia]

Lukaku wants us to stay in... so I'm out.

[johnh]

 

Thanks for following up John.

 

First of all, the general direction of the EU and the major issues are decided by the European Council in which every president/prime minister/bundeskanselier/.. is represented.

Secondly you have the Council, which groups ministers/secretaries according to the policy area to be discussed; for example envirmonmental, judicial, interior, ...

 

Who sits in both these Councils is decided by national elections. If you want Corbyn to be in the European Council instead of Cameron, you can vote for Corbyn and hope he becomes prime minister. If the UK government is exclusively Labour, then all the Councils will only have policitians from Labour.

 

Who sits in the EU Parliament, which, together with the Council, is the main decision-making body of the EU, is decided by elections every five years. You can vote directly for your candidate of choice. If the party you vote for wins the election (EU wide), it will be a member of that party who is elected Commission President. The Tories are part of the "European Conservatives and Reformists", Labour is part of the "Socialists and Democrats".

 

As you see, in principle it is quite the same as the situation you described regarding national elections.

Main differences:

- in the EU you are 1 of 500 million, while in the UK you are 1 of 60 million.

- the EU is a supra-national organisation (not a country) therefor you have institutions like the Council whose members are decided by national elections per member state instead of EU wide elections. Hopefully in the not so distant future, members of the Council will be chosen from the European Parliament.

 

holystove, just to recap. I go to the polling station, put an x on my voting slip and look in the paper next morning to see who has won.

Your comment that the EU vote is 'quite the same' is like comparing the Telegraph cryptic crossword to the Quick crossword. You also don't say much about the Commission which has considerable power but is not elected. The system is complex and complexity is a breeding ground for manipulation and for an outfit that has failed to get its accounts signed off by the auditors for many years, I wouldn't trust it not to be manipulative. I am certainly not against the 'principle of an EU but the EU in its current form is a disaster and requires considerable overhaul. We are not going to be able to influence this from within because the 'elite' don't want change. I think Brexit will trigger the overhaul.

[holystove]

 

holystove, just to recap. I go to the polling station, put an x on my voting slip and look in the paper next morning to see who has won.

Your comment that the EU vote is 'quite the same' is like comparing the Telegraph cryptic crossword to the Quick crossword. You also don't say much about the Commission which has considerable power but is not elected. The system is complex and complexity is a breeding ground for manipulation and for an outfit that has failed to get its accounts signed off by the auditors for many years, I wouldn't trust it not to be manipulative. I am certainly not against the 'principle of an EU but the EU in its current form is a disaster and requires considerable overhaul. We are not going to be able to influence this from within because the 'elite' don't want change. I think Brexit will trigger the overhaul.

 

Indeed, the Commission is the main executive branch. But as I wrote, its President is chosen from the biggest political party in the EU Parliament. The President then chooses his various commissionars (one per member state). Also, the Commission doesn't decide policy, they implement what the Council and EP decide.

 

I agree with you about the complexity of it all and the need to overhaul. But as with any consensus between 10+ parties, the end result is not always straight forward. And, as stated above, I wholeheartedly agree that a Brexit offers the best chance for this overhaul (in the way I'd like to see it done). If that's the reason you vote Leave you have my gratitude .

[johnh]

 

Indeed, the Commission is the main executive branch. But as I wrote, its President is chosen from the biggest political party in the EU Parliament. The President then chooses his various commissionars (one per member state). Also, the Commission doesn't decide policy, they implement what the Council and EP decide.

 

I agree with you about the complexity of it all and the need to overhaul. But as with any consensus between 10+ parties, the end result is not always straight forward. And, as stated above, I wholeheartedly agree that a Brexit offers the best chance for this overhaul (in the way I'd like to see it done). If that's the reason you vote Leave you have my gratitude .

holystove, yep, that is the main reason. I had hoped that Cameron would have got the changes in his re-negotiations but he achieved the square root of sod all. I am convinced that Brexit will win and that the EU will come up with a raft of changes (all that Cameron originally asked for, plus some bits and pieces) and ask for another referendum on that. The result of that will be 'remain'.

[MikeO]

holystove, yep, that is the main reason. I had hoped that Cameron would have got the changes in his re-negotiations but he achieved the square root of sod all. I am convinced that Brexit will win and that the EU will come up with a raft of changes (all that Cameron originally asked for, plus some bits and pieces) and ask for another referendum on that. The result of that will be 'remain'.

 

Although I disagree and think (and hope) that remain will win John I think if we vote out we'll stay out. The EU will be happy to be rid of us. as holystove has said several times we're the people holding the union back.

[johnh]

 

Although I disagree and think (and hope) that remain will win John I think if we vote out we'll stay out. The EU will be happy to be rid of us. as holystove has said several times we're the people holding the union back.

 

Mike, with several countries starting to ask questions about EU membership, Brussels are terrified of a UK Brexit. Particularly if we leave and do well. Rather than happy to be rid of us, they will be desperate to keep us in. The no.1 problem is if the 'Remains' win. That is when Brussels will stuff it to us. All the special 'opt-outs' etc will disappear, we will be forced to join the euro and the pace towards a federal state will increase at a rate of knots and we will find that we have no option but to go along with it.

[MikeO]

 

Mike, with several countries starting to ask questions about EU membership, Brussels are terrified of a UK Brexit. Particularly if we leave and do well. Rather than happy to be rid of us, they will be desperate to keep us in. The no.1 problem is if the 'Remains' win. That is when Brussels will stuff it to us. All the special 'opt-outs' etc will disappear, we will be forced to join the euro and the pace towards a federal state will increase at a rate of knots and we will find that we have no option but to go along with it.

 

Respect your opinion John but we'll just have to agree to disagree .

[Cornish Steve]

 

Although I disagree and think (and hope) that remain will win John I think if we vote out we'll stay out. The EU will be happy to be rid of us. as holystove has said several times we're the people holding the union back.

 

You're making the assumption, of course, that the political and banking elites in Britain and Europe will actually do anything if Britons vote for a Brexit. Watch for stalling of epic proportions.

[MikeO]

 

You're making the assumption, of course, that the political and banking elites in Britain and Europe will actually do anything if Britons vote for a Brexit. Watch for stalling of epic proportions.

 

Like I said a bit earlier I think; if we vote out and the government doesn't act on it there'll be Poll Tax style rioting on the streets, they'll have to.

[johnh]

 

Like I said a bit earlier I think; if we vote out and the government doesn't act on it there'll be Poll Tax style rioting on the streets, they'll have to.

 

Well I'll send a strongly worded letter to the Telegraph for a start. :shaking fist:

[MikeO]

 

Well I'll send a strongly worded letter to the Telegraph for a start. :shaking fist:

 

I can see you doing a studs up sliding tackle on Cameron in Downing Street myself John; you'll get more than a red card for it but I'll come and visit you .

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Apparently we could lose Robles and Delefeou if Britain leaves the EU

 

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/657049/Brexit-Britain-EU-European-Union-Premier-League

 

 

[Shukes]

We're voting to leave the EU not Europe.

Our passports and European passports are only affected by travel.

 

Or so I'm told by my Dutch friend.

[Makis]

The issue are the work permits. The rules after a Brexit would be the same as for players arriving from outside the EU, i.e. they would either have had to play in 75% of their countries' matches or be considered a special talent.