Brexit...

[Matt]

Well I'm not clicking that link :shaking fist:

[MikeO]

Well I'm not clicking that link :shaking fist:

 

Go on, you know you want to .

[rubecula]

It did, but peace had already broken out around 1995. I lived and worked in N Ireland for 6 months in 1995 and it was a fantastic experience. Downtown Belfast on a Saturday night took some beating.

To be fair the poor ould place took a beating every night for decades before that

[Matt]

 

Go on, you know you want to .

oh wait! I'm convinced!

 

Hashtag.... so many.

[Guest rusty747]

To be fair the poor ould place took a beating every night for decades before that

Indeed it had. I saw it ,probably at its worst, in the early 80's when in the military and, again, probably at its best in 1995. I made lifetime friends of all (both?) political and religious persuasions in my second spell and I would regard them as some of the nicest, most genuine, people it has ever been my pleasure to meet.

Edited March 15, 2017 by rusty747

[holystove]

going by exit polls, Wilders only 12%; everybody should be happy about that.. even though he would have made brexit easier for the UK, it's beter for brexit not to be associated with Wilders politics.

 

Biggest winners Dutch versions of Lib Dem and Green Party who both openly campaigned for stronger EU. Well done, Holland.

[MikeO]

Main source appears to be Daily Mail but it sounds like Article 50 is to be triggered on Tuesday 14th March.

 

You can always trust the Fail.

[rubecula]

going by exit polls, Wilders only 12%; everybody should be happy about that.. even though he would have made brexit easier for the UK, it's beter for brexit not to be associated with Wilders politics.

 

Biggest winners Dutch versions of Lib Dem and Green Party who both openly campaigned for stronger EU. Well done, Holland.

I never expected someone like that to win in any Western European country. Any idea in the size of the swing and in which direction?

[holystove]

I never expected someone like that to win in any Western European country. Any idea in the size of the swing and in which direction?

 

The biggest swing is from PvdA (Labour) to Green Party and Lim Dem. All the other parties more or less got the same result.. which Wilders admits, is a poor showing from him.

 

Results show that "nexit" was only an issue in British (and us) media.. People who voted Wilders did so primarily from an anti-immigrant point of view and on the other side, a swing from Dutch Labour to Lim Dem and Green Party doesn't mean Holland is all of a sudden extremely pro-EU-federalism.

 

Relevance for Brexit: likely coalition will be PVV (right centre liberals), CDH (christian centre), D66 (left centre liberals) and GL (left environmentalists) .. If the Tory-right reads the campaign promises of especially those last two, they will not be particularly impressed.

[Guest rusty747]

You can always trust the Fail.

Yep! But it will be invoked by the end of March which is the main thing.

[Matt]

Apparently my permit is on hold because of an admin error. My daughters permit says British but she only has an american passport for now. So, need to get her British passport sorted before I can get my permit. Fucking admin....

[Guest rusty747]

Apparently my permit is on hold because of an admin error. My daughters permit says British but she only has an american passport for now. So, need to get her British passport sorted before I can get my permit. Fucking admin....

At least the wheels are turning and from what you say, it looks like there will eventually be a good outcome.

[Palfy]

Apparently my permit is on hold because of an admin error. My daughters permit says British but she only has an american passport for now. So, need to get her British passport sorted before I can get my permit. Fucking admin....

Wouldn't life be simpler if passports just said Earth, that way it would cut all shit out Matt, and how would people exit from that,possibly a rocket to the Moon or Mars.

[MikeO]

Wouldn't life be simpler if passports just said Earth, that way it would cut all shit out Matt, and how would people exit from that,possibly a rocket to the Moon or Mars.

 

If they did they'd be obsolete (until we find ETs). Said it before that's what the World should be aiming for imo, but obviously the World's not ready for it yet.

 

Strange to me that we are rejecting globalisation all over the place and returning to our cultural and nationalistic "roots" while if you take it back far enough we all have the same roots. We're all of African heritage ultimately.

[markjazzbassist]

 

If they did they'd be obsolete (until we find ETs). Said it before that's what the World should be aiming for imo, but obviously the World's not ready for it yet.

 

Strange to me that we are rejecting globalisation all over the place and returning to our cultural and nationalistic "roots" while if you take it back far enough we all have the same roots. We're all of African heritage ultimately.

 

agreed on all accounts.

[Matt]

 

If they did they'd be obsolete (until we find ETs). Said it before that's what the World should be aiming for imo, but obviously the World's not ready for it yet.

 

Strange to me that we are rejecting globalisation all over the place and returning to our cultural and nationalistic "roots" while if you take it back far enough we all have the same roots. We're all of African heritage ultimately.

exactly

[pete0]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-referendum-theresa-may-blocks-second-nicola-sturgeon-independence-bid-latest-a7633131.html

 

Almost unbelievable that she can keep a straight face saying that.

[holystove]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-referendum-theresa-may-blocks-second-nicola-sturgeon-independence-bid-latest-a7633131.html

 

Almost unbelievable that she can keep a straight face saying that.

 

To be fair, she couldn't keep a straight face .. from second 30 to 40 is hilarious.

 

The Telegraph had a good piece on this : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/13/crafty-nicola-sturgeon-leaves-theresa-may-tangle/

Edited March 17, 2017 by holystove

[Guest rusty747]

If they did they'd be obsolete (until we find ETs). Said it before that's what the World should be aiming for imo, but obviously the World's not ready for it yet.

 

Strange to me that we are rejecting globalisation all over the place and returning to our cultural and nationalistic "roots" while if you take it back far enough we all have the same roots. We're all of African heritage ultimately.

Its interesting, what you say. I agree with it 100% in theory. And most of the 'discussion' on the subject, as far as I can see, is not about whether what you say is right or wrong. Rather, it is about whether it is practically achieveable, given all of our human failings and propensity for corruption.

 

I am in the camp that says it is ideal on a theoretical level but not achieveable on a practical level - and would, in fact, be taken advantage of by certain factions, leaving other factions even worse off than they might be now. I guess that's why hundreds of thousands are starving in Nigeria (as an example) while their leaders are being chauffered around in air conditioned mercedes.

Edited March 17, 2017 by rusty747

[Matt]

I'll agree that it's impractical at the moment, but we should still work towards it rather than step away from it.

[Guest rusty747]

I'll agree that it's impractical at the moment, but we should still work towards it rather than step away from it.

But how to practically do that without making the situation worse?

[Matt]

But how to practically do that without making the situation worse?

I can't answer that. If I could, I wouldn't be doing what I do! On an individual level, all I can do is integrate and promote integration, for better or worse.

[holystove]

It can be practically implemented by working incrementally towards a common identity ..

 

by opening borders, by creating common goals at an international level, by increasingly working together to meet those objectives, by creating the structures to achieve this, by increasing foreign aid, by encouraging scientific discovery, by promoting universal human rights, ..

 

I personally wouldn't start closing borders, withdrawing from the international stage, demanding complete assimiliation for immgrants that do break through our borders, abandoning international treaties that guarantee human rights, building walls,

[Matt]

It can be practically implemented by working incrementally towards a common identity ..

 

by opening borders, by creating common goals at an international level, by increasingly working together to meet those objectives, by creating the structures to achieve this, by increasing foreign aid, by encouraging scientific discovery, by promoting universal human rights, ..

 

I personally wouldn't start closing borders, withdrawing from the international stage, demanding complete assimiliation for immgrants that do break through our borders, abandoning international treaties that guarantee human rights, building walls,

true. I guess it comes down to setting timelines and expectations for people, and that this kind of change takes decades and centuries. By doing this, you hope that people think of future generations and not get hung up on the immediate future.

[Guest rusty747]

true. I guess it comes down to setting timelines and expectations for people, and that this kind of change takes decades and centuries. By doing this, you hope that people think of future generations and not get hung up on the immediate future.

I think this is the thing that is difficult to sell. Persuading people to make sacrifices and accept compromises for altruistic reasons that will be of no benefit to them, or probably even the next generation, is extremely difficult. And even if it could be sold, I am convinced it wouldn't work. For all the talk of borderless Europe as an example, each country is still looking to get the best deal for its country citizens out of Europe. In short, human nature will always stop this from working imho and trying to make it happen just wastes time, money and effort that could have been spent on each country just being a good neighbour to its adjoining countries.

 

Tall fences make for good neighbours is the saying, I believe.

[Bailey]

Globalisation is all well and good but then no one has a sense of identity, each country dilutes their culture and ultimately there will always be places where integration won't be accepted.

 

I am completely for countries working together for the greater good but I actually like our cultural differences. The more integration that happens the less influential culture becomes.

 

As a non EU example just watch how Cuba will change over the next few years. Instead of Cuban heritage being preserved like it has for the last however many years, it will slowly become another American annex with a McDonald's and Walmart on every corner.

[Guest rusty747]

Globalisation is all well and good but then no one has a sense of identity, each country dilutes their culture and ultimately there will always be places where integration won't be accepted.

I am completely for countries working together for the greater good but I actually like our cultural differences. The more integration that happens the less influential culture becomes.

As a non EU example just watch how Cuba will change over the next few years. Instead of Cuban heritage being preserved like it has for the last however many years, it will slowly become another American annex with a McDonald's and Walmart on every corner.

Perfect example Bailey. Edited March 17, 2017 by rusty747

[holystove]

I think you are right that cultural differences will somewhat disappear as a result of globalisation. However, there isn't going to be a McD or Walmart in Cuba because someone is going to force Cubans to eat at McD or shop at Walmart. It's because people want to do those things.

 

Tough to deny them that possibility because we want to keep the possibility of visiting indigenous cultures when we go on holiday.

 

There will still be difference because how big the planet is, with warm regions, wet regions, mountainous regions, etc .. In keeping with the topic, islanders will always be islanders

[Guest rusty747]

I think you are right that cultural differences will somewhat disappear as a result of globalisation. However, there isn't going to be a McD or Walmart in Cuba because someone is going to force Cubans to eat at McD or shop at Walmart. It's because people want to do those things.

 

Tough to deny them that possibility because we want to keep the possibility of visiting indigenous cultures when we go on holiday.

 

There will still be difference because how big the planet is, with warm regions, wet regions, mountainous regions, etc .. In keeping with the topic, islanders will always be islanders

I agree to a point but the problem is that people sometimes think they want something that, when its all too late, they realise that actually they didn't want. I blame very clever advertising and pervasive global marketing. In short, I blame the very process of globalisation - as the very few at the top chase yet more and more millions and billions of $ at the expense of indigenous cultures.

If the demand for McDonald's in Cuba (as an example) was demand pulled, rather than supply pushed then it would be far more ethical and natural - but that doesn't make billions of $ for the few at the top.

Edited March 17, 2017 by rusty747

[Bailey]

I think you are right that cultural differences will somewhat disappear as a result of globalisation. However, there isn't going to be a McD or Walmart in Cuba because someone is going to force Cubans to eat at McD or shop at Walmart. It's because people want to do those things.

 

Tough to deny them that possibility because we want to keep the possibility of visiting indigenous cultures when we go on holiday.

 

There will still be difference because how big the planet is, with warm regions, wet regions, mountainous regions, etc .. In keeping with the topic, islanders will always be islanders

Those companies will turn up because of the tourists not the locals (well Walmart was probably a bad example but you know what I mean). I think Cultural differences should be celebrated and not watered down. Countries can still work with each other is so many different ways without diluting what makes their people different and for me that is where EU integration should begin and end.