Brexit...

[MikeO]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39613888

[Romey 1878]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39613888

Try Matt's link at the top of this page .

[MikeO]

Try Matt's link at the top of this page .

I was just emphasising?.

[Bailey]

 

Go back a very short time (in history of the planet terms) and the UK was made up of loads of disparate "kingdoms" all claiming their own sovereignty and none of them wanted unity. Further back settlements were self governing. Further back than that someone was in charge of their cave.

 

We evolved from that because it was the sensible thing to do; both economically, politically and to stop people killing each other.

 

Now we've taken a backwards step imo so where does it end? Do we carry on reversing the process of thousands of years and split into ever smaller groups? Can I have a referendum in my road to declare independence for our postcode?

 

Yourself and rusty both agree with me that in a Utopian world what I want is a good thing but say it can't be done and I agree that as things are it's not going to happen, but that's no reason not to try. Couple of hundred years ago the thought of humans flying was fantasy but it didn't stop people trying and eventually succeeding (luckily for rusty or he'd be on the dole ).

The difference is that these kingdoms were largely invaded and therefore weren't joined in union like we are with the EU and that the kingdoms all had similar beliefs, culture, language etc.

 

We don't share the same culture as any other European nation. It's not a bad thing. I like going to Spain or France etc for that exact reason but they shouldn't be imposing their values on us and we shouldn't be imposing our values on them.

 

Some people won't agree with this but one of the EU regs means that workers are meant to have a break every 4 hours or something like that. That may be more prectical in Spain where they have siestas or in France where they typically make the most of their lunch break however in my line of work I quite often need to work through lunch or work late however I need a "break" before I can keep working. It's not enforced but it does mean I won't get paid for the extra work I do.

[Bailey]

Guardian has been poor lately on the brexit stuff, I agree. Blaming May for having said God would have voted Leave, while she clearly didn't say that, was a new low this weekend.

 

However, IMO, The Telegraph has been just as bad, if not worse. (bristol size city of unemployed migrants nonsense, UK navy can take Spain, etc)

 

I try to read both to get both sides of the argument but the end result is just that I get annoyed twice.

The problem with the papers is you can read both sides of the story and neither of them will be true!

[Guest rusty747]

The difference is that these kingdoms were largely invaded and therefore weren't joined in union like we are with the EU and that the kingdoms all had similar beliefs, culture, language etc.

We don't share the same culture as any other European nation. It's not a bad thing. I like going to Spain or France etc for that exact reason but they shouldn't be imposing their values on us and we shouldn't be imposing our values on them.

Some people won't agree with this but one of the EU regs means that workers are meant to have a break every 4 hours or something like that. That may be more prectical in Spain where they have siestas or in France where they typically make the most of their lunch break however in my line of work I quite often need to work through lunch or work late however I need a "break" before I can keep working. It's not enforced but it does mean I won't get paid for the extra work I do.

As the French say, 'Vive la difference!'

 

And I entirely agree. Cultures are different across nations and whilst it is nice to experience them on holiday, it would be a recipe for disaster to either force one culture on another or, worse, to compromise to such an extent that the world becomes one boring homogenous stock of similar people.

 

Lets respect our differences, rather than try to find a 'one size fits all' solution.

Edited April 18, 2017 by rusty747

[holystove]

It's strange to agree with someone but reach a completely opposite conclusion. I want the utmost respect for cultural differences and don't see the EU as a threat at all. This is how it works: once there has been cultural or economic or other convergence, the EU is the tool Europeans can use to implement common policy. It is not the other way around, where the EU enforces a rule to create homogenity.

 

The Workings Time directive is an interesting example. To avoid social dumping between member states, at one point the member states decided there should be minimum standards that should apply to every country. (this usually results in choosing the lowest common denominator).

Look at what it guarantees (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205) and tell me one thing you disagree with. (I have never heard of the 4 hour rule Bailey mentioned, but I'm not a labour law expert). I would even dare to make an educated guess and claim that the UK enforces much stricter rules that the minimum the EU requires.

 

Anyway, this is one of the reasons I was in favour of Brexit. The UK government usually doesn't agree when other member states feel there is need for a common approach to a certain issue. (Main reason is still that the deal Cameron got was a slap in the face of Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, and every other member state that is a financial contributor to the EU.)

[Matt]

Culture has constantly evolved throughout our history, either through force or integration so guarding "our" culture is nonsense; there is no fixed culture to refer to, at a reach there's only stereotypes. There is no 1 unique culture per country, I'd say even every town and city has there own specific way but it all works out together. So why not on a bigger scale?

 

One thing I can understand is foreign cultures coming in and either trying to usurp the locals culture (maybe a bit of a dramatic word), or the more common instance of people coming over and not integrating into their new surroundings - the latter drives me nuts. I've always prided myself with throwing myself into the local culture wherever I've worked/lived. Some I didn't enjoy, most I loved. I think if more people made that effort, we would have a lot less issues.

[Matt]

Give me a chance Palfy. Only just seen your comment.

 

To me, Sovereignty means UK being 100% in charge of making its own laws, changing its own laws where we see fit, control of immigration, able to conclude bilateral trade deals without having to wait for concensus from 27 other countries and not being held back and/or frustrated by other countries (incidentally, putting their own national interests ahead of the EU group in the process) tactical use of veto etc. In short, as Bailey said, being in charge of our own destiny and not being dictated to by Brussels/Strasbourg.

 

It also means establishing (re establishing?) our own national culture and cultures, being proud of what we stand for and setting a good example of leadership on the world stage. Leadership is not a popularity contest though and sometimes we have to be strong enough to say no.

 

It also means being a good neighbour to our European and global allies (whether they are in the EU or not) whilst always safeguarding our own national identity.

 

It means strong defence. Not just for the obvious reasons but also to instill a sense of discipline and responsibility in the younger generations and to show them that opportunity does exist to do good and that there are honest rewards for honest endeavour.

 

Sadly, much of the above has been sacrificed on the altar of political correctness, driven by active minority groups. I am in favour of minority groups having their say but not to the extent that the voices of the majority cease to be heard or listened to.

Thanks for that. Personally, I took solace from the fact our politicians don't have free reign, considering the scum we've had in charge in my life time, and it's even more difficult to take now we have that unelected golum of bile and cigarette ash "leading" the country.

 

As for immigration, what part were we not in in charge of? We already weren't part of Schengen, so anyone coming into the country was double-checked upon entry - if people got through it's down to either incompetence of our own immigration department, or the immigrants snuck in ileagally (which is a global problem, no EU related). I've really never understood this argument at all.

 

I had a nosey around, seems our Immigrations laws are updated by Parliment on nearly a monthly basis, and I would put good money on the EU not checking every amendment:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/immigration-rules-statement-of-changes

 

Culture I just addressed in the previous post so onto defence - can you explain that in a bit more detail? Because so far as I understand, we're still part of NATO, we still have control on our own defence strategies - which part of that is affected by the Brexit decision?

[holystove]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-department-ridiculed-over-tweets-that-show-how-eu-membership-boosts-uk-trade-dexeu-david-davis-andrew-gwynne_uk_58f5c7c6e4b0da2ff862d08e?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

 

Don't know if anyone noticed the DExEU tweets last week, but they were very amusing.

 

Troubling that David Davis is actually the most competent one of the three brexiteers (fox, boris, dd).

[johnh]

Ah yes, the Huffington Post. An American outfit with an anti-Brexit view that they air at every opportunity, as if they don't have enough political problems to dwell on in the U S of A. Add them to the Guardian and the BBC.

[holystove]

No argument here that Huff post is biased, but you have to admit those charts were not really the best idea. I would laugh just as hard if remainers released charts to back up their point but in reality would only prove the necessity of brexit.

Edited April 18, 2017 by holystove

[Matt]

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-does-what/more-information/explaining-the-rules-why-are-there-eu-rules-and-national-rules_en

 

Thought this was interesting:

 

EU-wide immigration rules generally apply in 24 out of the EU’s 27 countries. The following exceptions apply:

Denmark does not apply EU-wide rules which relate to immigration, visa and asylum policies.

Ireland and the United Kingdom choose, on a case-by-case basis, whether or not to adopt EU rules on immigration, visa and asylum policies.

 

[holystove]

As May has indicated that this GE is about uniting behind Brexit ("the country has united, Westminster has not), the analogies with Greece/Syriza are interesting.

 

Duncan Robinson‏ @duncanrobinson 43 min.43 minuten geleden

Meer

Brits fallen for Greek fallacy that domestic vote give you stronger position in Brussels. Other countries have voters too.

[Chach]

Ah yes, the Huffington Post. An American outfit with an anti-Brexit view that they air at every opportunity, as if they don't have enough political problems to dwell on in the U S of A. Add them to the Guardian and the BBC.

 

Finally we agree, the data is anti-Brexit

 

 

[Palfy]

May should not have signed article 50 if she intended to go back on her words that there would be no general election till 2020, she should have had the election first, and who ever won should have been given the go ahead to sign or not sign.

The reason she did what she did is because she was scared it would become a E.U vote and she new she would lose, if the country had a rerun the in vote would win and she and her cronies know that.

[EFC-Paul]

The reason she did what she did is because she was scared it would become a E.U vote and she new she would lose, if the country had a rerun the in vote would win and she and her cronies know that.

It would be interesting to see how things would turn out if a re vote was taken and the fall out from it, thankfully from my personal point of view it won't happen though

Edited April 18, 2017 by EFC-Paul

[Bailey]

Culture has constantly evolved throughout our history, either through force or integration so guarding "our" culture is nonsense; there is no fixed culture to refer to, at a reach there's only stereotypes. There is no 1 unique culture per country, I'd say even every town and city has there own specific way but it all works out together. So why not on a bigger scale?

 

One thing I can understand is foreign cultures coming in and either trying to usurp the locals culture (maybe a bit of a dramatic word), or the more common instance of people coming over and not integrating into their new surroundings - the latter drives me nuts. I've always prided myself with throwing myself into the local culture wherever I've worked/lived. Some I didn't enjoy, most I loved. I think if more people made that effort, we would have a lot less issues.

I agree that if you do live in a foreign country then you should adopt their culture. The problem is that it hasn't happened here and unfortunately plenty of Brits abroad don't do the same thing.

 

In my opinion the result of the referendum comes down to the failure of previous governments to effectively plan ahead on immigration, the effects on the local communities (such as integration, infrastructure etc) on top of the aging demographic (older people loving longer, driving cars for longer, needing more care etc).

 

I don't think there is any doubt that this country needs to redress thr balance between emigrants and immigrants and that by having this open door policy (EU), by allowing too many foreign students into unimportant uni courses and not being strict enough on the non-EU immigrants we allow into the country we have let things get to a point whereby local counsels can't deal with the population and the strain it is placing on the services they offer.

 

This immigration has had a dramatic effect on our towns and cities. I don't know how much everyone around the country has experienced is bit having spent my childhood in a very white UK community, oblivious to the issues, and then spending my adult life in Birmingham and Portsmouth it has shocked me by how unintegrated areas of the country are and how the systems in place simply can't cope.

 

Governments should have addressed this in previous years. They should have been prioritising doctors, teachers, dentists, enginners etc for decades knowing what would happen. Councils should have been planning housing and road layouts, schooling, hospitals, policing etc years ago knowing that the numbers would go up.

 

The question is, will brexit actually help this? Theoretically it could but it requires the right government and I don't see one on either side of the spectrum.

[Bailey]

Sorry I went completely off tangent there. Only the start was replying to you Matt! ?

[MikeO]

I agree that if you do live in a foreign country then you should adopt their culture. The problem is that it hasn't happened here and unfortunately plenty of Brits abroad don't do the same thing.

 

Plenty of cultural differences within the UK though but just because I moved to the West Country doesn't mean I have to drink scrumpy, marry my sister and talk like a Wurzel; I'm sure Rubes doesn't shag sheep (unless they're particularly attractive ones) and Matt doesn't take yodeling lessons.

 

The World's a very small place now.

 

Having said that I agree completely with your observations about Brits abroad. Some of the most racist and hateful crap I ever hear spouted about "bloody foreigners" come out of the mouths of ex-pats (in France and Greece is where I see it a lot but I'm sure it's the same in other places) while the irony of what they're saying goes completely over their head.

[Bailey]

 

Plenty of cultural differences within the UK though but just because I moved to the West Country doesn't mean I have to drink scrumpy, marry my sister and talk like a Wurzel; I'm sure Rubes doesn't shag sheep (unless they're particularly attractive ones) and Matt doesn't take yodeling lessons.

 

The World's a very small place now.

 

Haha I like your examples ?

 

I'm not saying that you have to become whatever culture you move into but you have to respect their culture. You shouldn't move to Spain and create a little England for example. In fact the more I think about it the more I think the rest of the EU will be glad to see us go!

[MikeO]

Haha I like your examples

 

I'm not saying that you have to become whatever culture you move into but you have to respect their culture. You shouldn't move to Spain and create a little England for example. In fact the more I think about it the more I think the rest of the EU will be glad to see us go!

 

Agree completely.

[Palfy]

Haha I like your examples

I'm not saying that you have to become whatever culture you move into but you have to respect their culture. You shouldn't move to Spain and create a little England for example. In fact the more I think about it the more I think the rest of the EU will be glad to see us go!

That goes without saying the French and Italians have always been against us being in from the start, that was always one of the positives about being in the E.U it pissed some countries off.

[Matt]

That goes without saying the French and Italians have always been against us being in from the start, that was always one of the positives about being in the E.U it pissed some countries off.

well that's just sad and petty

[Guest rusty747]

I agree that if you do live in a foreign country then you should adopt their culture. The problem is that it hasn't happened here and unfortunately plenty of Brits abroad don't do the same thing.

 

In my opinion the result of the referendum comes down to the failure of previous governments to effectively plan ahead on immigration, the effects on the local communities (such as integration, infrastructure etc) on top of the aging demographic (older people loving longer, driving cars for longer, needing more care etc).

 

I don't think there is any doubt that this country needs to redress thr balance between emigrants and immigrants and that by having this open door policy (EU), by allowing too many foreign students into unimportant uni courses and not being strict enough on the non-EU immigrants we allow into the country we have let things get to a point whereby local counsels can't deal with the population and the strain it is placing on the services they offer.

 

This immigration has had a dramatic effect on our towns and cities. I don't know how much everyone around the country has experienced is bit having spent my childhood in a very white UK community, oblivious to the issues, and then spending my adult life in Birmingham and Portsmouth it has shocked me by how unintegrated areas of the country are and how the systems in place simply can't cope.

 

Governments should have addressed this in previous years. They should have been prioritising doctors, teachers, dentists, enginners etc for decades knowing what would happen. Councils should have been planning housing and road layouts, schooling, hospitals, policing etc years ago knowing that the numbers would go up.

 

The question is, will brexit actually help this? Theoretically it could but it requires the right government and I don't see one on either side of the spectrum.

I agree with your general synopsis of the situation. The discussion then has to focus on how to manage the situation as it is now. Services and social infrastructure cant cope so we have to either increase its supply or reduce the demand on it.

I favour reducing the demand on it - or at least checking the rate of increase on it.

That is not based on any xenophobic or racist sentiments, quite simply on the reality of space available, problems of assimmilation and integration and the huge and unacceptable increase in taxationwhich would be necessary for us to address the supply side of the equation. And even if we did that, it would just atteact more economic migrants. There comes a point where we have to say no to immigration and, if we want to help, we can start by utilising all the spare land on the planet, much of Africa, Australian interior, etc.

Edited April 19, 2017 by rusty747

[Palfy]

I agree with your general synopsis of the situation. The discussion then has to focus on how to manage the situation as it is now. Services and social infrastructure cant cope so we have to either increase its supply or reduce the demand on it.

I favour reducing the demand on it - or at least checking the rate of increase on it.

That is not based on any xenophobic or racist sentiments, quite simply on the reality of space available, problems of assimmilation and integration and the huge and unacceptable increase in taxationwhich would be necessary for us to address the supply side of the equation. And even if we did that, it would just atteact more economic migrants. There comes a point where we have to say no to immigration and, if we want to help, we can start by utilising all the spare land on the planet, much of Africa, Australian interior, etc.

I do agree to a certain extent, but we didn't have to leave the E.U to curb the amount of people entering the country, we could have stopped the amount of people coming in from outside the E.U, we have always had control on that yet it is still happening today, that those immigrants make up a large percentage of immigrants entering the country.

So therefore it pretty much proves that the so called we want control of our borders brigade, the likes of Johnson and Gove, lied about controlling immigration and a lot of people fell for that lie.

[Chach]

....if we want to help, we can start by utilising all the spare land on the planet, much of Africa, Australian interior, etc.

 

That's very generous of you Rusty!

[holystove]

The Telegraph with a brilliant sketch.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/20/hail-theresa-may-british-stonewalling-champion-2016/

[Matt]

I agree that if you do live in a foreign country then you should adopt their culture. The problem is that it hasn't happened here and unfortunately plenty of Brits abroad don't do the same thing.

 

In my opinion the result of the referendum comes down to the failure of previous governments to effectively plan ahead on immigration, the effects on the local communities (such as integration, infrastructure etc) on top of the aging demographic (older people loving longer, driving cars for longer, needing more care etc).

 

I don't think there is any doubt that this country needs to redress thr balance between emigrants and immigrants and that by having this open door policy (EU), by allowing too many foreign students into unimportant uni courses and not being strict enough on the non-EU immigrants we allow into the country we have let things get to a point whereby local counsels can't deal with the population and the strain it is placing on the services they offer.

 

This immigration has had a dramatic effect on our towns and cities. I don't know how much everyone around the country has experienced is bit having spent my childhood in a very white UK community, oblivious to the issues, and then spending my adult life in Birmingham and Portsmouth it has shocked me by how unintegrated areas of the country are and how the systems in place simply can't cope.

 

Governments should have addressed this in previous years. They should have been prioritising doctors, teachers, dentists, enginners etc for decades knowing what would happen. Councils should have been planning housing and road layouts, schooling, hospitals, policing etc years ago knowing that the numbers would go up.

 

The question is, will brexit actually help this? Theoretically it could but it requires the right government and I don't see one on either side of the spectrum.

But that wasn't the case, I shared the link that shows the UK did not follow the EUs guideline and that they had the power to control it case by case. If

 

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-does-what/more-information/explaining-the-rules-why-are-there-eu-rules-and-national-rules_en

 

Thought this was interesting:

Quote

EU-wide immigration rules generally apply in 24 out of the EU’s 27 countries. The following exceptions apply:

 

Denmark does not apply EU-wide rules which relate to immigration, visa and asylum policies.

 

Ireland and the United Kingdom choose, on a case-by-case basis, whether or not to adopt EU rules on immigration, visa and asylum policies.

 

We always had control. The "balance" you speak of, I can see why people want it addressed. But the fact is that the UK already had the power to do just that, and it seems to me that the EU was made the scapegoat for our own politicians failings (who will now have "complete" power).

[Guest rusty747]

 

That's very generous of you Rusty!

that was intended as the royal we. It could be done under the UN if enough nations agreed and were prepared to finance it. it would spread the cost globally, generate growth in previously barren areas and provide a huge boost to the job market. what's not to like?