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Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

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16 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Why would they need to call another referendum if they'd been elected on a promise of remaining? And if that happened why would the leave vote suddenly "walk" a referendum when they've just elected a government pledged to remain? Makes no sense.

Good grief surely you're not falling for the "Corbyn backing off" nonsense when it's completely plain the opposition parties are waiting until no deal is off the table before agreeing to it, and rightly so. Johnson can't be trusted not to move the election back (you can always when tell he's lying because it only happens when his lips move) so they're treating him with the caution he's earned, even his family are turning on him and his demeanour is that of a little boy lost. He's a pathetic racist serial liar and it's totally shameful the Tory system has him as PM. Your friend Mrs May I was no fan of but I trusted that she was doing what she thought was right, this idiot has the country as the laughing stock of the World. Have you noticed the lack of Trump's moronic utterances being reported? That's because Johnson has "trumped" him.

Well the key is how the electorate will see it.  Corbyn has been pushing hard for an election for some time.  He's now backing off, frightened of losing as he's 10 points behind in the polls. That's how the electorate will see it - he's a loser.  He also changes is mind like his underwear depending upon whose pulling his strings. 

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5 hours ago, johnh said:

The basis of our democracy is that MP's are servants of the people, not the  people servants of MP's.  I didn't agree with Tony Benn on most things but found his five questions concerning MP's. apposite.

1. What power have you got?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. Where did you get it from?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3.  In whose interests do you exercise it?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4.  To whom are you accountable?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   5.  How can we get rid of you?                                         

The fact is, Leave won the democratic referendum vote.  At the next election, the manifesto's of both the Tory and Labour parties stated that they would honour the referendum result. That accounted for approximately 80% of the votes cast.  Parliament then voted to invoke Article 50 with an overwhelming majority.  Anything which tries to usurp that is undemocratic,  there is no logical argument against it.  And just to remind you, the referendum question was 'Leave' or 'Remain'.

Just to be sure, you’ve still not answered my question about leave.eu John, after calling my comment stupid. 

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25 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Why would they need to call another referendum if they'd been elected on a promise of remaining? And if that happened why would the leave vote suddenly "walk" a referendum when they've just elected a government pledged to remain? Makes no sense.

Good grief surely you're not falling for the "Corbyn backing off" nonsense when it's completely plain the opposition parties are waiting until no deal is off the table before agreeing to it, and rightly so. Johnson can't be trusted not to move the election back (you can always when tell he's lying because it only happens when his lips move) so they're treating him with the caution he's earned, even his family are turning on him and his demeanour is that of a little boy lost. He's a pathetic racist serial liar and it's totally shameful the Tory system has him as PM. Your friend Mrs May I was no fan of but I trusted that she was doing what she thought was right, this idiot has the country as the laughing stock of the World. Have you noticed the lack of Trump's moronic utterances being reported? That's because Johnson has "trumped" him.

I completely understand where your coming from but if we remained on the basis of politicians being elected we would have the same arguments, parliament wouldn’t agree the electorate wouldn’t agree and as now a stalemate would pursue, let’s just go back to the people with a simple in or out no deals before we leave, that way it’s done and the people have decided not the politicians. 

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Why would they need to call another referendum if they'd been elected on a promise of remaining? And if that happened why would the leave vote suddenly "walk" a referendum when they've just elected a government pledged to remain? Makes no sense.

Good grief surely you're not falling for the "Corbyn backing off" nonsense when it's completely plain the opposition parties are waiting until no deal is off the table before agreeing to it, and rightly so. Johnson can't be trusted not to move the election back (you can always when tell he's lying because it only happens when his lips move) so they're treating him with the caution he's earned, even his family are turning on him and his demeanour is that of a little boy lost. He's a pathetic racist serial liar and it's totally shameful the Tory system has him as PM. Your friend Mrs May I was no fan of but I trusted that she was doing what she thought was right, this idiot has the country as the laughing stock of the World. Have you noticed the lack of Trump's moronic utterances being reported? That's because Johnson has "trumped" him.

Interesting that you say that. I've noticed that the Trump coverage has dropped over here as well, and I've seen a lot more of Johnson these last couple of weeks than I seen of any other foreign politician before in such a time span... well besides Putin and Jong-un.

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13 hours ago, johnh said:

Yes, I agree.  A second referendum - bring it on.  Same choice as last time.

Thought you were dead against it? Can’t believe we actually agree on something!

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

Thought you were dead against it? Can’t believe we actually agree on something!

No, what I was against was the options the Remainers wanted on the vote,  always carefully thought out to give them an advantage.  I want the same choice as before, Leave or Stay.

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On 05/09/2019 at 13:17, StevO said:

Leave.eu destroyed democracy 

The reason I didn't respond was your comment wasn't worthy of a response.  Explain how Leave.eu destroyed domocracy?  Your post indicates that they have already done so.  How? They have no legislative or Parliamentary power.

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4 hours ago, johnh said:

No, what I was against was the options the Remainers wanted on the vote,  always carefully thought out to give them an advantage.  I want the same choice as before, Leave or Stay.

Fair enough sir :) 

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

Fair enough sir :) 

Matt, One of the reasons I think Leave would walk a second referendum (regardless of what the polls say) is that the two worst PM's in living memory (even worse than May), - Blair and Major - are backing Remain.  This will cost Remain a couple of million votes, particularly in the midlands and north.  A Leave campaign slogan such as 'A vote for Remain is a vote for the London Liberal Elite' should garner another million or so.  Remain should make sure that these guys and their ilk stay well away, but, of course, they are all buddies.

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Another Conservative with a conscience, who'd have thought it? They're dropping like flies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49623737

Amber Rudd leaving the party is a massive blow to the Conservative party, she was a well respected politician who was held in great esteem by all sides. 

Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU stands a greater chance of taking what remains of the Conservative party out of power. 

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13 hours ago, johnh said:

Matt, One of the reasons I think Leave would walk a second referendum (regardless of what the polls say) is that the two worst PM's in living memory (even worse than May), - Blair and Major - are backing Remain.  This will cost Remain a couple of million votes, particularly in the midlands and north.  A Leave campaign slogan such as 'A vote for Remain is a vote for the London Liberal Elite' should garner another million or so.  Remain should make sure that these guys and their ilk stay well away, but, of course, they are all buddies.

See, I don’t see either side walking it anymore. I think Remain will pip  it because people have short memories. The older demographic may remember Blair and Major but the majority of people will only remember as far back as or concentrate on Cameron’s era (such is society today). Then there’s also the age demographic which, in 3 years has millions more youth becoming legible to vote (no guarantees they will though) with around 1.5 million natural deaths since 2016 (sorry, it’s a very morbid way of looking at it).

guess we’ll never know unless we get a second though. Oh, and all citizens getting a say this time please 

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12 hours ago, Palfy said:

Amber Rudd leaving the party is a massive blow to the Conservative party, she was a well respected politician who was held in great esteem by all sides. 

Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU stands a greater chance of taking what remains of the Conservative party out of power. 

Palfy, that was an odd choice of phrase.   'Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU'?    He is just doing what people voted for in the democratic referendum.

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22 hours ago, johnh said:

The reason I didn't respond was your comment wasn't worthy of a response.  Explain how Leave.eu destroyed domocracy?  Your post indicates that they have already done so.  How? They have no legislative or Parliamentary power.

By false advertising on people’s social media to stir up racial hatred and convince vulnerable people of things that would happen if we didn’t leave. On an absolutely massive scale, they spent millions employing Cambridge Analytica to do this for them. There was such a scandal around it that there was government inquiry into the firm and the inquiry stated at the end that we will never be able to have a fair election ever again after what they did, such was the damaging but every effective work they carried out. When a government inquiry states that a fair election can never happen again I’d say that pretty damaging to democracy. 

I’d love to know your thoughts on how fair you think that it. But I suspect you didn’t even know it happened and thus you don’t really care. As a leave voter it makes me feel sick that that is how they won.

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9 minutes ago, johnh said:

Palfy, that was an odd choice of phrase.   'Boris in his attempt to take us out of the EU'?    He is just doing what people voted for in the democratic referendum.

Yes he might be but not in away I would want any part of, let’s remember he voted against May in her attempts to get a deal across the table, yet any one who did it to him he’s thrown out the party. 

John I know you’re a Tory but surly you are middle of the road Tory, who is more in tune with the 21 sacked and Rudd, even if you may not have agreed with their stance on the EU surly you wouldn’t have did what the far right did. 

We both agree that the last referendum is now dead so to say he is only doing what the people voted for doesn’t mean a jot that vote has been diluted by politicians of all parties, so we all need to stop flogging a dead horse and have the second referendum, with 2 options stay or leave and tied by law that it cannot be apposed. 

I feel Johnstone has a better chance at this moment in time of destroying the Conservative party than leaving the EU, we saw the Johnstone faithful out side of Parliament the other day batting the remainers in a aggressive manner, definitely far right racist thugs on the march given a legitimacy from the likes of Johnstone and Rees-Mogg, if that’s your brand of Tory Party you’re welcome to it but not for me mate, that would be the nearest thing in my opinion to voting for Trump Hitler or Stalin. 

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Yes he might be but not in away I would want any part of, let’s remember he voted against May in her attempts to get a deal across the table, yet any one who did it to him he’s thrown out the party. 

John I know you’re a Tory but surly you are middle of the road Tory, who is more in tune with the 21 sacked and Rudd, even if you may not have agreed with their stance on the EU surly you wouldn’t have did what the far right did. 

We both agree that the last referendum is now dead so to say he is only doing what the people voted for doesn’t mean a jot that vote has been diluted by politicians of all parties, so we all need to stop flogging a dead horse and have the second referendum, with 2 options stay or leave and tied by law that it cannot be apposed. 

I feel Johnstone has a better chance at this moment in time of destroying the Conservative party than leaving the EU, we saw the Johnstone faithful out side of Parliament the other day batting the remainers in a aggressive manner, definitely far right racist thugs on the march given a legitimacy from the likes of Johnstone and Rees-Mogg, if that’s your brand of Tory Party you’re welcome to it but not for me mate, that would be the nearest thing in my opinion to voting for Trump Hitler or Stalin. 

Palfy, I don't agree that the last referendum is dead, not sure where you got that from?  Regarding the votes against May's deal, there were probably more Remainers voted against than Leavers. I wonder why?  Regarding you comparison of the Tory Party with Trump, Hitler or Stalin.  I think you need to delete Stalin from that if you don't wish to upset Corbyn and his  henchmen.😁

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6 hours ago, johnh said:

Palfy, I don't agree that the last referendum is dead, not sure where you got that from?  Regarding the votes against May's deal, there were probably more Remainers voted against than Leavers. I wonder why?  Regarding you comparison of the Tory Party with Trump, Hitler or Stalin.  I think you need to delete Stalin from that if you don't wish to upset Corbyn and his  henchmen.😁

😂 possibly, to be honest I’m not happy with Corbyn so much so that I feel like that for the first time in my life I cannot see me voting for Labour, trust me John when that day comes it will be one of the saddest days of my life, more because I feel rightly or wrongly I would have in some way let the memory of my parents down. 

It’s been over 3 years and we are no further forward than day one, trust me John it’s done we cannot go any further with the original referendum, the politicians are playing party politics and won’t come together to make any movement possible in any direction, so therefore I think it’s fair to say it’s dead. 

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Here we go again the French are saying they are going to vote against a three month extension, just as they said they would last time, but didn’t because Germans said they had to sanction it, and if it suits the Germans to have another extension which I’m sure it will then the French will be put back in there place once again. 

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8 hours ago, Palfy said:

Here we go again the French are saying they are going to vote against a three month extension, just as they said they would last time, but didn’t because Germans said they had to sanction it, and if it suits the Germans to have another extension which I’m sure it will then the French will be put back in there place once again. 

I don't disagree with your assessment of the EU side of the equation but I think there are still a few twists and turns between now and 31/10/19 on the UK side.

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

I don't disagree with your assessment of the EU side of the equation but I think there are still a few twists and turns between now and 31/10/19 on the UK side.

Most definitely there are going to be as you said more twists and turns, but whether that means we leave by said date I’m not so sure. 

Although I do believe the government are enforcing very strongly that we will be, I’m in Spain at the moment and I was listening to a local English radio station and a , gov.uk announcement came on advising all UK citizens to seek help and advice with their travel and passport arrangements after the 31st October to and from EU countries. 

Personally I would want article 50 revoked but I know that that would be wrong, so what I would hope will happen is that all parties agree to a 2nd referendum, where the result has to stand and can’t be opposed by law, for me that would be the quickest way to resolve this and I won’t  say the fairest because leavers would certainly disagree with that after the outcome of the 1st vote, but I would counteract that by saying you aren’t winners because you haven’t got what you voted for and are unlikely to as it stands. 

As crazy as it seems at the moment the remainers who lost the vote look more like the winners than the leavers, so let’s just get on with the 2nd referendum and take the power back from the politicians who will fight this forever and never agree and give it back to the people.  

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Someone made a post on here linking research that concluded the S*n boycott helped to cut Euroscepticism in Liverpool.

Over the weekend, the former Europe correspondent for The Daily Telegraph, David Rennie, gave some insights into how his paper goes about covering Brussels:

"As one of Boris Johnson's successors as Telegraph Brussels correspondent from 2005-2007, I fear Sir Max is being too easy on the role his paper played in establishing the idea that Europe has only foolish and bad ideas, imposed on a hapless Britain.  I inherited Boris's office, with its fine view over a Brussels park and lake, and his assistant who told adoring tales of her scallywag boss.  I also inherited a beat predicated on the idea that stories about the EU did not have to be wholly true as long as they were funny.  I wrote at the time that UK journalism felt like school bullying and the EU was the kid in the playground with glasses who had to be punched, because it never fought back and deserved it.  I should say I had some fine Foreign desk editors, who let me knock down flase stories, but it felt like swimming against a tide.  Two small stories, then I'll stop.  I once asked for a briefing about a project to connect national databases of asylum applications.  A patient EU Commission official explained how real-time maps could now be shared with governments.  I rang London and was told to speak to the home news desk.  I explained the scheme to the editor on duty.  He was sincerely baffled. "But that's helpful to the UK", he said. "Yes," I said. "It sounds sensible," he went on, audibly at a loss at what to do with the story.  It was buried.  Last story.  Shortly before my move to The Economist in 2007 I was rung to be told that the Telegraph was closing its Brussels staff bureau and wanted me to move to Paris as Europe editor.  I argued for keeping an EU staff job, though I already knew I was off. I reminded my then boss that an op-ed colleague Simon Heffer had that week written a column comparing the EU threat to Nazi Germany. "Don't you think our readers should have a correspondent here to explain what such an institution is actually doing?" I asked.  My then boss told me: "Telegraph readers hate the EU so much they don't want to read about it." This was the logical end of years of unserious, unprincipled, lazy polemic. Europe's wickedness was established as a feeling, a delicious channeling of contempt and rage. Facts didn't matter because the EU didn't sue and if Eurocrats complained that proved the UK press was doing something right.  Boris Johnson didn't invent that journalism, but he and Sir Max put it on page 1, week after week, forcing others to compete, and changing UK debate."

Eye-opening, though unsurprising.

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34 minutes ago, holystove said:

Someone made a post on here linking research that concluded the S*n boycott helped to cut Euroscepticism in Liverpool.

Over the weekend, the former Europe correspondent for The Daily Telegraph, David Rennie, gave some insights into how his paper goes about covering Brussels:

"As one of Boris Johnson's successors as Telegraph Brussels correspondent from 2005-2007, I fear Sir Max is being too easy on the role his paper played in establishing the idea that Europe has only foolish and bad ideas, imposed on a hapless Britain.  I inherited Boris's office, with its fine view over a Brussels park and lake, and his assistant who told adoring tales of her scallywag boss.  I also inherited a beat predicated on the idea that stories about the EU did not have to be wholly true as long as they were funny.  I wrote at the time that UK journalism felt like school bullying and the EU was the kid in the playground with glasses who had to be punched, because it never fought back and deserved it.  I should say I had some fine Foreign desk editors, who let me knock down flase stories, but it felt like swimming against a tide.  Two small stories, then I'll stop.  I once asked for a briefing about a project to connect national databases of asylum applications.  A patient EU Commission official explained how real-time maps could now be shared with governments.  I rang London and was told to speak to the home news desk.  I explained the scheme to the editor on duty.  He was sincerely baffled. "But that's helpful to the UK", he said. "Yes," I said. "It sounds sensible," he went on, audibly at a loss at what to do with the story.  It was buried.  Last story.  Shortly before my move to The Economist in 2007 I was rung to be told that the Telegraph was closing its Brussels staff bureau and wanted me to move to Paris as Europe editor.  I argued for keeping an EU staff job, though I already knew I was off. I reminded my then boss that an op-ed colleague Simon Heffer had that week written a column comparing the EU threat to Nazi Germany. "Don't you think our readers should have a correspondent here to explain what such an institution is actually doing?" I asked.  My then boss told me: "Telegraph readers hate the EU so much they don't want to read about it." This was the logical end of years of unserious, unprincipled, lazy polemic. Europe's wickedness was established as a feeling, a delicious channeling of contempt and rage. Facts didn't matter because the EU didn't sue and if Eurocrats complained that proved the UK press was doing something right.  Boris Johnson didn't invent that journalism, but he and Sir Max put it on page 1, week after week, forcing others to compete, and changing UK debate."

Eye-opening, though unsurprising.

I bare to see what relevance that has now, I do think we are all clearly aware that Boris is a no fan of the EU. 

On the subject of our press I do agree that they represent the views and wishes of some of our society’s idiots, and they lie to suit their agenda, I personally don’t read any of the papers they are mainly full of trivia and the views of other people who want you to believe in their agenda. 

But I know John is a reader of the Telegraph and what you wrote about there readers could well be true, because John is an ardent leaver but only he can say whether what he reads has had a bearing on his condemnation of the EU.

But for me the biggest influences on the way think is driven by social media, and as we’ve witnessed round the world people will infiltrate social media to interfere and corrupt the truth, as Russia did in the Presidential elections, but let’s be frank a lot of the EU press are anti British and in your own admission you have changed your stance, and become more against what we are doing, could that be because of the anti British papers you may be reading, who knows but it would be fair to say that we are all influenced by what’s being broadcast around us willingly or not. 

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4 hours ago, Palfy said:

Most definitely there are going to be as you said more twists and turns, but whether that means we leave by said date I’m not so sure. 

Although I do believe the government are enforcing very strongly that we will be, I’m in Spain at the moment and I was listening to a local English radio station and a , gov.uk announcement came on advising all UK citizens to seek help and advice with their travel and passport arrangements after the 31st October to and from EU countries. 

Personally I would want article 50 revoked but I know that that would be wrong, so what I would hope will happen is that all parties agree to a 2nd referendum, where the result has to stand and can’t be opposed by law, for me that would be the quickest way to resolve this and I won’t  say the fairest because leavers would certainly disagree with that after the outcome of the 1st vote, but I would counteract that by saying you aren’t winners because you haven’t got what you voted for and are unlikely to as it stands. 

As crazy as it seems at the moment the remainers who lost the vote look more like the winners than the leavers, so let’s just get on with the 2nd referendum and take the power back from the politicians who will fight this forever and never agree and give it back to the people.  

I won't ever agree that a second referendum offers a solution. We were told, quite clearly, what the outcome of a Leave vote in the referendum would be and there has, subsequently, been an attempt by people who really should know better to turn it into something it never was purely because they wish to reverse the decision but are paranoid about not being seen as the one's responsible for doing so.

Unfortunately, the political battle lines have now been drawn and it has got a little ugly and shows every sign of getting uglier. I think the battle now has to be played out to a conclusion, based on the outcome of the referendum.

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

I won't ever agree that a second referendum offers a solution. We were told, quite clearly, what the outcome of a Leave vote in the referendum would be and there has, subsequently, been an attempt by people who really should know better to turn it into something it never was purely because they wish to reverse the decision but are paranoid about not being seen as the one's responsible for doing so.

Unfortunately, the political battle lines have now been drawn and it has got a little ugly and shows every sign of getting uglier. I think the battle now has to be played out to a conclusion, based on the outcome of the referendum.

We were but what we didn’t realise was it could be challenged by MPs of all parties, and with the vote being so close and lies told by both sides it could prove that it was   fortuitous that it was challenged. 

Armed with more knowledge people may wish to change their minds, after all many MPs have had a change of heart and they’ve had the opportunity to change their vote and change the coarse of Brexit some have changed sides numerous times particularly in the Tory party. 

To say the battle should be played out to it’s conclusion does not guarantee that we will leave, it could as easily result in article 50 being with drawn if an election pursues and the Tories are defeated. 

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19 hours ago, Palfy said:

😂 possibly, to be honest I’m not happy with Corbyn so much so that I feel like that for the first time in my life I cannot see me voting for Labour, trust me John when that day comes it will be one of the saddest days of my life, more because I feel rightly or wrongly I would have in some way let the memory of my parents down. 

It’s been over 3 years and we are no further forward than day one, trust me John it’s done we cannot go any further with the original referendum, the politicians are playing party politics and won’t come together to make any movement possible in any direction, so therefore I think it’s fair to say it’s dead. 

Palfy, whilst I don't consider the referendum as 'dead', I have posted on here that I  do not fear a second referendum (even though I would still consider it undemocratic). I think leave would win it comfortably.  However, I also think it wouldn't solve the current problems as I do not think Remain would accept that result either. There is a hard core of Remain supporters who treat the EU like a religion and they won't let go.

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

Palfy, whilst I don't consider the referendum as 'dead', I have posted on here that I  do not fear a second referendum (even though I would still consider it undemocratic). I think leave would win it comfortably.  However, I also think it wouldn't solve the current problems as I do not think Remain would accept that result either. There is a hard core of Remain supporters who treat the EU like a religion and they won't let go.

I think you have just written, most eloquently, exactly what I was trying to say in an earlier post.

Another referendum would achieve nothing. We are where we are and an end is in sight - but quite what that end may be, none of us can really know.

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

Palfy, whilst I don't consider the referendum as 'dead', I have posted on here that I  do not fear a second referendum (even though I would still consider it undemocratic). I think leave would win it comfortably.  However, I also think it wouldn't solve the current problems as I do not think Remain would accept that result either. There is a hard core of Remain supporters who treat the EU like a religion and they won't let go.

Without a doubt there will be people on both sides that will never be happy John including many MPs, that’s why a next referendum has to have a condition attached that says that the result can’t be challenged. 

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

There is a hard core of Remain supporters who treat the EU like a religion and they won't let go.

Works both ways. Hard core of leave supporters who won't change their mind whatever the widely predicted (even by the Tory right) damage to the country.

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

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46 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Without a doubt there will be people on both sides that will never be happy John including many MPs, that’s why a next referendum has to have a condition attached that says that the result can’t be challenged. 

Palfy,  the remain propaganda leaflet which was sent to every household in the country prior to the referendum stated:  'This is your decision, the Government will implement what you decide'.    So, regretfully, any condition attached to a second referendum, wouldn't be worth the paper its written on.

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8 hours ago, Palfy said:

I bare to see what relevance that has now, I do think we are all clearly aware that Boris is a no fan of the EU. 

On the subject of our press I do agree that they represent the views and wishes of some of our society’s idiots, and they lie to suit their agenda, I personally don’t read any of the papers they are mainly full of trivia and the views of other people who want you to believe in their agenda. 

But I know John is a reader of the Telegraph and what you wrote about there readers could well be true, because John is an ardent leaver but only he can say whether what he reads has had a bearing on his condemnation of the EU.

But for me the biggest influences on the way think is driven by social media, and as we’ve witnessed round the world people will infiltrate social media to interfere and corrupt the truth, as Russia did in the Presidential elections, but let’s be frank a lot of the EU press are anti British and in your own admission you have changed your stance, and become more against what we are doing, could that be because of the anti British papers you may be reading, who knows but it would be fair to say that we are all influenced by what’s being broadcast around us willingly or not. 

My anti-EU stance goes back way before the referendum, back into the last century.  The devious way the Lisbon treaty went through (we should have had a referendum) and Ireland being ordered to vote again just hardened my position.

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57 minutes ago, johnh said:

My anti-EU stance goes back way before the referendum, back into the last century.  The devious way the Lisbon treaty went through (we should have had a referendum) and Ireland being ordered to vote again just hardened my position.

That’s fair enough John I was just trying to find out if the theory put forward by Holystove had any influence on your thinking. 

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3 hours ago, johnh said:

Palfy,  the remain propaganda leaflet which was sent to every household in the country prior to the referendum stated:  'This is your decision, the Government will implement what you decide'.    So, regretfully, any condition attached to a second referendum, wouldn't be worth the paper its written on.

It was about as useful as the Facebook ads leave.eu posted stating that 60m Turks were about to move to Britain if we stayed in the EU. 

Lets not forget the bus too.

Amazing what people will say and do to get their desired outcome. 

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11 hours ago, RPG said:

I won't ever agree that a second referendum offers a solution. We were told, quite clearly, what the outcome of a Leave vote in the referendum would be and there has, subsequently, been an attempt by people who really should know better to turn it into something it never was purely because they wish to reverse the decision but are paranoid about not being seen as the one's responsible for doing so.

Sorry mate, there's many ways to leave the EU and leave with no trade deal is only one of them. I can use Matt's argument more implicitly. If it was a binary vote to leave or stay why was the referendum advisory and not pre-legislative?

The mechanism to leave the EU was well known > trigger article 50 > two year negotiation > leave, absolutely no reason it couldn't have been pre-legislative.

The only possible reason you won't agree a second referendum offers a solution is that you are worried a more informed electorate will overturn your preferred decision. 

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4 hours ago, Chach said:

Sorry mate, there's many ways to leave the EU and leave with no trade deal is only one of them. I can use Matt's argument more implicitly. If it was a binary vote to leave or stay why was the referendum advisory and not pre-legislative?

The mechanism to leave the EU was well known > trigger article 50 > two year negotiation > leave, absolutely no reason it couldn't have been pre-legislative.

The only possible reason you won't agree a second referendum offers a solution is that you are worried a more informed electorate will overturn your preferred decision. 

Quite the contrary mate.

My worry is that a second referendum will split the country even further and serve no purpose other than to waste more time.

The government gave a solemn undertaking that the result of the referendum will be honoured. I, and the majority of the electorate (including many who voted Remain), therefore expect it to be honoured.

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7 hours ago, StevO said:

It was about as useful as the Facebook ads leave.eu posted stating that 60m Turks were about to move to Britain if we stayed in the EU. 

Lets not forget the bus too.

Amazing what people will say and do to get their desired outcome. 

But we are not talking about how useful it was. We are talking about the solemn assurances it offered. Our 'once in a lifetime decision that the government will implement. It will be your decision, not government's, not Parliament's!'

IMG_2674.JPG

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

Quite the contrary mate.

My worry is that a second referendum will split the country even further and serve no purpose other than to waste more time.

The government gave a solemn undertaking that the result of the referendum will be honoured. I, and the majority of the electorate (including many who voted Remain), therefore expect it to be honoured.

Your completely missing the point mate, you did vote to leave and leave won the day, but it was then left to parliament to agree with the EU a strategy to leave, as chach said that was always part of the process, the problem is our parliament can’t agree on a deal to take to the EU and let’s be honest never will. 

So if we are to leave that decision at the moment is firmly in the hands of the EU who could force us to crash out with a no deal, so let’s say the biggest power in the EU Germany doesn’t want us to leave and in no uncertain terms like last time tells others members you have to agree to more extensions, this will rumble on for years with us paying in the same amount as before we triggered article 50 yet with no say, which is a great position for the EU and a terrible one for us constantly stuck in limbo. 

So RPG how do you propose we get out of the situation we find ourselves in when parliament won’t allow us to leave without a deal yet won’t agree on a deal. 

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

But we are not talking about how useful it was. We are talking about the solemn assurances it offered. Our 'once in a lifetime decision that the government will implement. It will be your decision, not government's, not Parliament's!'

IMG_2674.JPG

My point is that they both lied in their campaigns, if they don’t see it through it’s just one more lie. It’s a tainted referendum anyway, I personally don’t see any good reason to progress it. I wanted out, now I just wish it didn’t happen. 

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2 hours ago, RPG said:

Quite the contrary mate.

My worry is that a second referendum will split the country even further and serve no purpose other than to waste more time.

The government gave a solemn undertaking that the result of the referendum will be honoured. I, and the majority of the electorate (including many who voted Remain), therefore expect it to be honoured.

With all due respect, you're just repeating the same platitudes and factoids and not addressing the fact that the referendum was not pre-legislative so always contingent on the details.

How can asking the question a second time split the country further? 

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2 hours ago, RPG said:

Quite the contrary mate.

My worry is that a second referendum will split the country even further and serve no purpose other than to waste more time.

The government gave a solemn undertaking that the result of the referendum will be honoured. I, and the majority of the electorate (including many who voted Remain), therefore expect it to be honoured.

It was almost 50/50 so very little wiggle room to split further. 

Leave campaign was misleading and people didn't really understand the implications. No deal wasn't even mentioned. For those reasons alone the vote should be null (and a fair few deserve to go to prison for their lies and racial tensions created).

Now everyone is more informed surely it makes sense to have another one. If leave wins it reaffirms the initial vote and no one would have much argument. Just look at boxing, in a close fight there's always a rematch. 

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24 minutes ago, pete0 said:

It was almost 50/50 so very little wiggle room to split further. 

Leave campaign was misleading and people didn't really understand the implications. No deal wasn't even mentioned. For those reasons alone the vote should be null (and a fair few deserve to go to prison for their lies and racial tensions created).

Now everyone is more informed surely it makes sense to have another one. If leave wins it reaffirms the initial vote and no one would have much argument. Just look at boxing, in a close fight there's always a rematch. 

That would make complete sense to right minded people, and how you and me got there would be a complete mystery to most people. 

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Your completely missing the point mate, you did vote to leave and leave won the day, but it was then left to parliament to agree with the EU a strategy to leave, as chach said that was always part of the process, the problem is our parliament can’t agree on a deal to take to the EU and let’s be honest never will. 

So if we are to leave that decision at the moment is firmly in the hands of the EU who could force us to crash out with a no deal, so let’s say the biggest power in the EU Germany doesn’t want us to leave and in no uncertain terms like last time tells others members you have to agree to more extensions, this will rumble on for years with us paying in the same amount as before we triggered article 50 yet with no say, which is a great position for the EU and a terrible one for us constantly stuck in limbo. 

So RPG how do you propose we get out of the situation we find ourselves in when parliament won’t allow us to leave without a deal yet won’t agree on a deal. 

Simple.

Have a General Election. The opposition can't hide from it forever and, when it happens, a lot of very pro leave constituencies will be ditching their Remain MPs and then Parliament will unshackle the PM.

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

With all due respect, you're just repeating the same platitudes and factoids and not addressing the fact that the referendum was not pre-legislative so always contingent on the details.

How can asking the question a second time split the country further? 

It is not a platitude. It is a hard fact.

The electorate were given an assurance that the outcome of the biggest democratic exercise this country has ever had would be acted upon.

A massive Parliamentary majority voted to trigger Article 50. The terms of Article 50 are very clear. Parliament is in contempt as far as I am concerned.

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

It was almost 50/50 so very little wiggle room to split further. 

Leave campaign was misleading and people didn't really understand the implications. No deal wasn't even mentioned. For those reasons alone the vote should be null (and a fair few deserve to go to prison for their lies and racial tensions created).

Now everyone is more informed surely it makes sense to have another one. If leave wins it reaffirms the initial vote and no one would have much argument. Just look at boxing, in a close fight there's always a rematch. 

It would split the country further because there are many Remainers now who are insisting that the democratic outcome of the referendum be acted on - Piers Morgan probably being amongst the most well known of them. A second referendum would divide those who are now even on the same side as some would welcome a second referendum (in the hope of overturning it) but many Remainers would not as they feel that the democratic outcome of the biggest democratic exercise in this country's history must be respected.

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Just now, RPG said:

It is not a platitude. It is a hard fact.

The electorate wete given an assurance that the outcome of the biggest democratic exercise this country has ever had would be acted upon.

A massive Parliamentary majority voted to trigger Article 50. Article 50 stated that we had 2 years to leave with a deal but that we would definitely leave 29/3/19. Parliament is in contempt as far as I am concerned.

You just did it again, Article 50 is a formal notice and a process by which member states notify the EU of their intention to leave, the reason that the Parliament had to vote to invoke article 50 is because the referendum was not pre-legislative.

The invocation of Article 50 can be rescinded with a solitary letter.

The Parliament is the only constitutional authority by which to make and repeal laws and that is what it is doing, the idea that it is not functioning can only be based on an ignorant understanding of how democracy works. They don't sit around the campfire singing "Kumbaya my Lord", they argue until they reach a consensus on the legislation and if they can';t do that there is zero reason why no deal becomes the default when a second referendum can be held on the options.

If people are unhappy with the member they elected they can change them at the next GE, the answer is more democracy not less.

So again, how can a second vote and more democracy divide the country?

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16 minutes ago, RPG said:

It would split the country further because there are many Remainers now who are insisting that the democratic outcome of the referendum be acted on - Piers Morgan probably being amongst the most well known of them. A second referendum would divide those who are now even on the same side as some would welcome a second referendum (in the hope of overturning it) but many Remainers would not as they feel that the democratic outcome of the biggest democratic exercise in this country's history must be respected.

Mate seriously holding Piers Morgan up as a figure head, a person who when editor of the Daily Mirror admitted he had published fake photographs of British soldiers beating Iraqi prisoners, if you want to pin your flag to a cunt like that carry on mate. 

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3 hours ago, pete0 said:

It was almost 50/50 so very little wiggle room to split further. 

Leave campaign was misleading and people didn't really understand the implications. No deal wasn't even mentioned. For those reasons alone the vote should be null (and a fair few deserve to go to prison for their lies and racial tensions created).

Now everyone is more informed surely it makes sense to have another one. If leave wins it reaffirms the initial vote and no one would have much argument. Just look at boxing, in a close fight there's always a rematch. 

No deal was mentioned.  It was discussed in the House of Commons prior to the referendum - and not logged as a major problem.  I will post details later.

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21 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Mate seriously holding Piers Morgan up as a figure head, a person who when editor of the Daily Mirror admitted he had published fake photographs of British soldiers beating Iraqi prisoners, if you want to pin your flag to a cunt like that carry on mate. 

Remain have got Tony Blair.😂

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30 minutes ago, johnh said:

No deal was mentioned.  It was discussed in the House of Commons prior to the referendum - and not logged as a major problem.  I will post details later.

Very keen to see this, I've been trying to find evidence that the leaders of the leave campaign even mentioned no deal outside the Parliament let alone inside it.

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5 minutes ago, Chach said:

Very keen to see this, I've been trying to find evidence that the leaders of the leave campaign even mentioned no deal outside the Parliament let alone inside it.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-we-cant-find-evidence-that-dominic-raab-warned-of-no-deal-brexit

Interesting extract... 

'If Mr Gove did raise the possibility of a no-deal Brexit in the referendum campaign, it must have been an accident, because he wrote this in a Daily Mail article in March this year:

“But we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey.

“Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence.”'

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Mate seriously holding Piers Morgan up as a figure head, a person who when editor of the Daily Mirror admitted he had published fake photographs of British soldiers beating Iraqi prisoners, if you want to pin your flag to a cunt like that carry on mate. 

Try to play the ball and not the man please. I gave Morgan as an example of a Remain voter who believes in democracy and expects us to to now leave.

You failed to answer the point I made.

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

You just did it again, Article 50 is a formal notice and a process by which member states notify the EU of their intention to leave, the reason that the Parliament had to vote to invoke article 50 is because the referendum was not pre-legislative.

The invocation of Article 50 can be rescinded with a solitary letter.

The Parliament is the only constitutional authority by which to make and repeal laws and that is what it is doing, the idea that it is not functioning can only be based on an ignorant understanding of how democracy works. They don't sit around the campfire singing "Kumbaya my Lord", they argue until they reach a consensus on the legislation and if they can';t do that there is zero reason why no deal becomes the default when a second referendum can be held on the options.

If people are unhappy with the member they elected they can change them at the next GE, the answer is more democracy not less.

So again, how can a second vote and more democracy divide the country?

I think it is you who miss the point. Parliament acknowledged the sovereignty of the people by initially doing as directed and invoking Article 50 by a massive majority.

Have a look at the submissions made today in the Belfast High Court to see how no deal is declared as the outcome of Article 50 if no agreement is reached.

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

Very keen to see this, I've been trying to find evidence that the leaders of the leave campaign even mentioned no deal outside the Parliament let alone inside it.

Google:  'Unearthed video reveals Philip Hammond shock no deal'.

The video shows arch-Remainer, 'Philip Hammond, admitting (in the House of Commons)  that if no deal was agreed on Brexit then Britain would leave the EU 'automatically'. (no mention of the catastrophes he is now implying - my brackets).  The video is from 2016.

He is now against 'no deal' when he previously announced to Parliament that it would be 'automatic'.

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15 minutes ago, RPG said:

I think it is you who miss the point. Parliament acknowledged the sovereignty of the people by initially doing as directed and invoking Article 50 by a massive majority.

Have a look at the submissions made today in the Belfast High Court to see how no deal is declared as the outcome of Article 50 if no agreement is reached.

Parliament is made sovereign by the electorate. The people themselves are not sovereign. 

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28 minutes ago, RPG said:

Try to play the ball and not the man please. I gave Morgan as an example of a Remain voter who believes in democracy and expects us to to now leave.

You failed to answer the point I made.

And I’m sure there are thousands of decent people who voted leave but now want to remain, because of the reality of what they voted for wasn’t what they were led to believe, Piers Morgan is a corrupt journalist who would say anything to get attention, I’m not playing the man you threw that ball into the arena. 

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I think most pf us in here would agree that the poloticians we have in the uk are pretty crap  almost as bad as my typing  in fact I am sure many if not all of them  would stand up and say that they remember the path they took when they first became MPs.  I took a smilar oath once and I still  support it when ever it is required of me.  However  I am worried I may perhaps be expecting too much from them.  es[ecially the parties who refuse to accept the will of the people as you no doubt have known for some time I voted to leave the eu (I am not going to go into why  just  now),  but the politicians who argure to remain are deeplyd deviding  for me  they have deliberately  ignored certain facts that  would otherwise have resultrd in a smooth transition for us all.  Have you ever wondered on :

Why poli's  are reluctant to let the british people  live how the wish?:shakingfist:

or why these politicians are apparently shit scared of doing an honest days work to earn the money the get paid?  They are lazy and gravy guzzlers  that they would rather sit back   on  ever so welcoming leather of the house and let someone else do the work for them.   I hate them all  😈

 

NO offence meant to whoever you are and whichever way you voted:)

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33 minutes ago, Palfy said:

And I’m sure there are thousands of decent people who voted leave but now want to remain, because of the reality of what they voted for wasn’t what they were led to believe, Piers Morgan is a corrupt journalist who would say anything to get attention, I’m not playing the man you threw that ball into the arena. 

good for you palfy you made your choice and are willing to stabd by it come hell or high water.  but please bear in mind that negotiations will not cease when we do leave,  they will go on for a long time after that.

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5 minutes ago, rubecula said:

good for you palfy you made your choice and are willing to stabd by it come hell or high water.  but please bear in mind that negotiations will not cease when we do leave,  they will go on for a long time after that.

Rubes I am a remainer and I make no secret of that,  but I don’t believe the last referendum has delivered for anybody leave or remain, and yes our politicians are to blame for the stalemate, so we do need a 2nd referendum where no one can say they haven’t got a better understanding of what leave or stay would mean, and a new referendum that no matter what the outcome by law it has to be implemented and can’t be opposed, then I believe we will have a fairer result. 

And if any side wants to argue about it let them in the knowledge that they can go on till the cows home, but what ever the result it will be implemented as a decision by the people based more facts than fiction. 

And when leave are going round the country campaigning I bet they won’t be driving there red bus around smeared with the outrageous lies on it like the last time. 

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