Bailey Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 5 hours ago, MikeO said: But it was a democratic vote and he was in the minority, wish the moaners would give it a rest. The issue I take with this is that we don't know who our PM (or the UK representative) will vote for when we vote for them. It's not the will of the people it's the will of politicians. If the people of Europe were able to elect the individuals in and out themselves it would be much more representative of Europeans. Anything that leads to powerful people picking another powerful person is unlikely to result in a good democratic decision. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bailey said: The issue I take with this is that we don't know who our PM (or the UK representative) will vote for when we vote for them. It's not the will of the people it's the will of politicians. But that's what we do (as I've said before); we vote in a government to make our decisions for us because they are the people the majority believe in, putting aside how much I despise the incumbents. There are an almost infinite amount of decisions that these people take on our behalf, we can't expect to say, "Hang on. I voted for you but I don't agree with this bit so I want a referendum." Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 1 hour ago, MikeO said: But that's what we do (as I've said before); we vote in a government to make our decisions for us because they are the people the majority believe in, putting aside how much I despise the incumbents. There are an almost infinite amount of decisions that these people take on our behalf, we can't expect to say, "Hang on. I voted for you but I don't agree with this bit so I want a referendum." Yeh I get that but if you give some level of sovereignty to a higher power then it dilutes the effect of the original voting choice. Yes the person I elect might also democratically vote for someone in Europe but it doesn't mean that person is elected by the people. Unless the PM candidates said if you vote for me then I will vote for x in Europe. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 14 hours ago, MikeO said: I guess, @holystove would probably know better than anyone. He's a member of the EPP (European People's Party) in the European Parliament. A group that the Conservative Party used to belong to until Cameron made the tories join the ECR (moderate eurosceptics). So yes, you could call them centre right. You were correct in saying that it's the UK prime minister that got to vote on Juncker, but it's imo important to add that they could only choose a candidate from the EPP, as the EPP had won the European elections. EPP had said beforehand that Juncker would be their candidate. So this sort of answers Bailey's claim that the people of Europe never knew they were going to get Juncker. If they didn't want him, they shouldn't have made the EPP the biggest party. MikeO and Bailey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 12 hours ago, Bailey said: Yeh I get that but if you give some level of sovereignty to a higher power then it dilutes the effect of the original voting choice. Yes the person I elect might also democratically vote for someone in Europe but it doesn't mean that person is elected by the people. Unless the PM candidates said if you vote for me then I will vote for x in Europe. But that's a fault with our democracy and not the EU. British politics have failed the people so much, not to mention pointing the finger of blame elsewhere brilliantly. Think it's been mentioned before, but politics fundamentals should be manadatory at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 10 hours ago, holystove said: He's a member of the EPP (European People's Party) in the European Parliament. A group that the Conservative Party used to belong to until Cameron made the tories join the ECR (moderate eurosceptics). So yes, you could call them centre right. You were correct in saying that it's the UK prime minister that got to vote on Juncker, but it's imo important to add that they could only choose a candidate from the EPP, as the EPP had won the European elections. EPP had said beforehand that Juncker would be their candidate. So this sort of answers Bailey's claim that the people of Europe never knew they were going to get Juncker. If they didn't want him, they shouldn't have made the EPP the biggest party. Who voted for the EPP? (Genuine question) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 7 hours ago, Matt said: But that's a fault with our democracy and not the EU. British politics have failed the people so much, not to mention pointing the finger of blame elsewhere brilliantly. Think it's been mentioned before, but politics fundamentals should be manadatory at school. No its not (depending on what @Holystove says) because as far as I am aware it's the same across Europe. You only have to look at Fifa to see what powerful people voting to make other powerful people more powerful leads to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 20 minutes ago, Bailey said: Who voted for the EPP? (Genuine question) Surely you are aware the European Parliament is directly elected by EU citizens? For example if you voted for a labour candidate in the EP elections of 2014, if he got elected he would have been part of the Party of European Socialists, which is the second biggest political group in the European Parliament. If they get a couple more seats next election in 2019 and beat the EPP, a socialist will replace Juncker. Bailey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 to be honest for a second, and I don't know what the rest of you think, but I have come to realise how divisive the subject is. The problem I have is there seems nothing is between the two positions we hold. Can anyone think of anything both sides agree on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 15 minutes ago, rubecula said: to be honest for a second, and I don't know what the rest of you think, but I have come to realise how divisive the subject is. The problem I have is there seems nothing is between the two positions we hold. Can anyone think of anything both sides agree on? Simple, we both agree that the other side is wrong. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 not quite what I was hoping fo Mike, I was hoping to find a way we could go forward together. But you are right that the other side is wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted September 15, 2017 Report Share Posted September 15, 2017 Sorry if this has been posted before but its brilliant.. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-british-jobs-david-davis-divorce-bill-spanish-pensioners-immigrants-a7934881.html MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 15, 2017 Report Share Posted September 15, 2017 45 minutes ago, Peter H said: Sorry if this has been posted before but its brilliant.. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-british-jobs-david-davis-divorce-bill-spanish-pensioners-immigrants-a7934881.html Brilliant, love Mark Steel. But as it was in the leftie Independent it'll be dismissed by readers of proper papers (S*n, Mail, Express, Torygraph). Caricature obviously but very funny, with a healthy sprinkling of truth thrown in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 17, 2017 Report Share Posted September 17, 2017 More bullshit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41301049 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 18, 2017 Report Share Posted September 18, 2017 9 hours ago, MikeO said: More bullshit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41301049 Well of course! That greener grass needs feeding somehow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted September 18, 2017 Report Share Posted September 18, 2017 10 hours ago, MikeO said: More bullshit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41301049 It's not just the 350m figure. : 1. for the UK to save any money from leaving the EU, it needs to secure the same economic benefits at no cost. (impossible). 2. he doesn't take into account the money needed to set up and staff all the regulatory agencies that the UK will need to have set up after brexit, or the money the UK will have to pay if it wants to (or rather, is allowed to) remain a member of EU regulatory agencies and programmes. So people who defend him by saying that he doesn't say the UK WILL spend 350m on the NHS, just that after Brexit the UK CAN spend the 350m on the NHS if it choses to do so, are also very very wrong. MikeO, Matt and pete0 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 18, 2017 Report Share Posted September 18, 2017 10 hours ago, holystove said: It's not just the 350m figure. : 1. for the UK to save any money from leaving the EU, it needs to secure the same economic benefits at no cost. (impossible). 2. he doesn't take into account the money needed to set up and staff all the regulatory agencies that the UK will need to have set up after brexit, or the money the UK will have to pay if it wants to (or rather, is allowed to) remain a member of EU regulatory agencies and programmes. So people who defend him by saying that he doesn't say the UK WILL spend 350m on the NHS, just that after Brexit the UK CAN spend the 350m on the NHS if it choses to do so, are also very very wrong. pete0 and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chach Posted September 22, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 Its a compelling argument Matt, holystove, pete0 and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 36 minutes ago, Chach said: Its a compelling argument If only! 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 Wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 28 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said: Wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Apart from the mass increase of violence it'd cause Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Matt said: Apart from the mass increase of violence it'd cause You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs though Bailey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 28 minutes ago, Matt said: Apart from the mass increase of violence it'd cause At least then non-believers would actually have done something worth being killed for. Bailey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 6 hours ago, Romey 1878 said: At least then non-believers would actually have done something worth being killed for. There's no justification for the senseless killings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 It is all looking a little bleak right now (not just leaving EU, but also threatening trade wars with the US), but this is quite funny: (adequately describes the view from the continent) MikeO and Chach 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 Not half as funny as Juncker's speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 Boris been taking lessons from Trump (he'd be an equally embarrassing PM)... Mr Johnson said: "The crucial thing I want to get over to S*n readers about Brexit is that it is going to be great and we need to believe in ourselves and believe we can do it. It is unstoppable." The man is slime; he supported Brexit purely to enhance his personal prospects; if he thought he'd have a better career supporting remain he would've done. Reprehensible twat playing the "lovable buffoon" in public while totally calculating in private. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41441444 pete0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 7 hours ago, MikeO said: Boris been taking lessons from Trump (he'd be an equally embarrassing PM)... Mr Johnson said: "The crucial thing I want to get over to S*n readers about Brexit is that it is going to be great and we need to believe in ourselves and believe we can do it. It is unstoppable." The man is slime; he supported Brexit purely to enhance his personal prospects; if he thought he'd have a better career supporting remain he would've done. Reprehensible twat playing the "lovable buffoon" in public while totally calculating in private. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41441444 Couldn't agree more if only the millions who fell for his lies last time had the courage to stand up and say I've been mislead and want to remain, because now I can see that what was said by the leaders of the leave campaign was untrue, and we can see that the damage caused by us leaving will continue, and will destroy the financial security of our children and grandchildren, and plunge millions more below the poverty line. This is not a forgone conclusion if people stand up to be counted and the Labour party gives them the vehicle to change their minds, we can rebuild our future in the E.U and get rid of the career MPs like Johnson, Gove and the far right extremists of the Tory party who masterminded this, and are still pulling the strings to make sure that we have Brexit that reflects there far right nationalistic views, and dam the cost to those who can least afford it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 LBC (@LBC) Tweeted: Michael Gove says Britain will be able to export more pigs’ ears after Brexit… @mrjamesob’s reaction is priceless https://t.co/NzroFBkKKR https://t.co/iaVOXfV2dD MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Must be from those flying pigs Britain is full of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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