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Brexit...

Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
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    • Leave
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10 hours ago, MikeO said:

Yes, saw that. My guess is that the Commons will pass the (unchanged) bill again, send it back to the Lords and it will then be passed by the Lords.

Some good brexit news for all of us here though:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/foodanddrink/foodnews/wetherspoon-pubs-will-mark-january-31-brexit-by-slashing-60p-off-european-drinks-including-becks-peroni-and-grey-goose-vodka-for-a-month/ar-BBZ8z0k?li=AAJsMOW

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51271287

"The StandUp4Brexit group says the £272,000 raised...."

What's the betting speedo Mick will beat that total on his own? Started with a £50,000 target and already on £158,487.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/speedomick-1000-ml-charity?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet

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26 minutes ago, MikeO said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51271287

"The StandUp4Brexit group says the £272,000 raised...."

What's the betting speedo Mick will beat that total on his own? Started with a £50,000 target and already on £158,487.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/speedomick-1000-ml-charity?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet

Be fair Mike, speedo Mick has got all us Toffee's behind him. - no contest.

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15 minutes ago, barryj said:

Today’s the day then. Three years of arguing, division and constant news reporting and now it feels like we are quietly leaving.

 

Let's hope the arguing and division ends now that the will of the peope has been enacted. I suspect not but hope for the best.

I don't see Brexit as an end in itself. Rather, it is an opportunity for us all to embrace and make a success of. Not easy for some, I acknowledge.

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1 hour ago, barryj said:

Today’s the day then. Three years of arguing, division and constant news reporting and now it feels like we are quietly leaving.

 

I see two reasons for this:

1) UK leaving the EU on January 31 was decided by the December 2019 election, so the real 'elation' for brexiters was when the election result became clear.  Today is just an inevitable consequence of that result.

2) for all pratical purposes, the UK will still be an EU member until January 2021.  It is only from 2021 on, that your every day life will be impacted by Brexit.

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14 hours ago, pete0 said:

Bit cruel even if it is Katie Hopkins. 

 

I don't know anything about her, but it does seem like she's a pretty terrible person. That said, this video doesn't help anyone and just feels childish to me. 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

She deserves every she gets. Utter scum of a human being. 

I agree she's utter scum, just the treatment doesn't sit right with me. That said if we had capital punishment for pushing hate I'd not bat an eyelid if she was given a lethal injection. 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

I agree she's utter scum, just the treatment doesn't sit right with me. That said if we had capital punishment for pushing hate I'd not bat an eyelid if she was given a lethal injection. 

Again, there’s nothing she doesn’t deserve. Public ridicule is the least of what she should deal with. 

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4 hours ago, Sibdane said:

I don't know anything about her, but it does seem like she's a pretty terrible person.

She's one of the new generation who get famous for being famous, a reality TV product; was on The Apprentice back in 2007, also done I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! and "Celebrity" Big Brother. Hateful person.

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6 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Now we are officially out does it mean after 31 December players from EU countries will have to obtain a work permit to come here and play. 

For the foreseeable future, the answer to every question about the future relationship will be 'it depends'.

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4 hours ago, holystove said:

For the foreseeable future, the answer to every question about the future relationship will be 'it depends'.

Very true, did you get to see the news reports of the celebrations going on around the country, for me they were reminiscent of the VE Day parties after the war which were completely understandable after such a momentous occasion.
Why they felt that they need to show there pleasure in this way is beyond me, it just shows there lack of class and understanding of what has just occurred in my eyes and they want us to unite as one and move forward. 
Well if that’s the face of Britain 🇬🇧 that they want to betray to the EU and the rest of the world, that they need to work, trade and form friendships with then I want nothing to do with them, for me it showed an embarrassing form of nationalism fever that I want know part of, and the sticking of two fingers up to the remainers and the rest of the EU. 
What was largely the feeling of most EU citizens to see images like that coming from Britain, it would be interesting to know. 

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7 hours ago, Palfy said:

Very true, did you get to see the news reports of the celebrations going on around the country, for me they were reminiscent of the VE Day parties after the war which were completely understandable after such a momentous occasion.
Why they felt that they need to show there pleasure in this way is beyond me, it just shows there lack of class and understanding of what has just occurred in my eyes and they want us to unite as one and move forward. 
Well if that’s the face of Britain 🇬🇧 that they want to betray to the EU and the rest of the world, that they need to work, trade and form friendships with then I want nothing to do with them, for me it showed an embarrassing form of nationalism fever that I want know part of, and the sticking of two fingers up to the remainers and the rest of the EU. 
What was largely the feeling of most EU citizens to see images like that coming from Britain, it would be interesting to know. 

I think much of the 'triumphalism' was not directed at EU but at the Remainers within UK, many of whom have employed every dirty trick in the book to try to obstruct democracy. This could have been resolved much more amicably almost 3 years ago if democracy had been respected then. So, I fully understand and support the celebrations last night. I had my glass of champagne, sitting quietly on our balcony.

Moving forward, both sides have to come together to make this work as it should. It's time for the Remain side to work for what is best for post brexit UK. Anything less is just cutting off noses to spite faces.

An amicable and unfettered working relationship as an independent country with the entire world, including EU, can only be a good thing.

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8 hours ago, Palfy said:

Very true, did you get to see the news reports of the celebrations going on around the country, for me they were reminiscent of the VE Day parties after the war which were completely understandable after such a momentous occasion.
Why they felt that they need to show there pleasure in this way is beyond me, it just shows there lack of class and understanding of what has just occurred in my eyes and they want us to unite as one and move forward. 
Well if that’s the face of Britain 🇬🇧 that they want to betray to the EU and the rest of the world, that they need to work, trade and form friendships with then I want nothing to do with them, for me it showed an embarrassing form of nationalism fever that I want know part of, and the sticking of two fingers up to the remainers and the rest of the EU. 
What was largely the feeling of most EU citizens to see images like that coming from Britain, it would be interesting to know. 

I made a conscious decision to avoid any TV and radio last night, and happily nobody within earshot of me was dense enough to light a firework.

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On 01/02/2020 at 10:44, RPG said:

I think much of the 'triumphalism' was not directed at EU but at the Remainers within UK, many of whom have employed every dirty trick in the book to try to obstruct democracy. This could have been resolved much more amicably almost 3 years ago if democracy had been respected then. So, I fully understand and support the celebrations last night. I had my glass of champagne, sitting quietly on our balcony.

Moving forward, both sides have to come together to make this work as it should. It's time for the Remain side to work for what is best for post brexit UK. Anything less is just cutting off noses to spite faces.

An amicable and unfettered working relationship as an independent country with the entire world, including EU, can only be a good thing.

There will be no amicable relationship. The EU are in an existential crisis with our departure. We contribute almost as much as France and Italy combined. In fact I don't know how France gets away with contributing so little actually.

With our departure the most economically liberal partner is no longer there. France is the primary proponent of federalisation and that is not generally how many of the northern nations like it.

We represent 13% of the population, 14% of the economy and 40% of the military might of the EU. Don't underestimate that last part. Democracy and the military are intrinsically linked.

The European economy is contracting due to it's lumbering institutions. It is poorly placed to react quickly to the ever changing technological advancements and threats from China for example.

I'd be very surprised if the EU exists in it's current form in 10 years time. It never really recovered from the last financial crisis, it is still involved in quantitative easing. The ECB is limited with some nations in the currency union and some nations not.

It'll go one of 2 ways. Either it will collapse and the member states will look to reform under a new more economically liberal arrangement that I will be hoping for. Or it will completely federalise and become the imperial force that many people are warning about.

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41 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

There will be no amicable relationship. The EU are in an existential crisis with our departure. We contribute almost as much as France and Italy combined. In fact I don't know how France gets away with contributing so little actually.

With our departure the most economically liberal partner is no longer there. France is the primary proponent of federalisation and that is not generally how many of the northern nations like it.

We represent 13% of the population, 14% of the economy and 40% of the military might of the EU. Don't underestimate that last part. Democracy and the military are intrinsically linked.

The European economy is contracting due to it's lumbering institutions. It is poorly placed to react quickly to the ever changing technological advancements and threats from China for example.

I'd be very surprised if the EU exists in it's current form in 10 years time. It never really recovered from the last financial crisis, it is still involved in quantitative easing. The ECB is limited with some nations in the currency union and some nations not.

It'll go one of 2 ways. Either it will collapse and the member states will look to reform under a new more economically liberal arrangement that I will be hoping for. Or it will completely federalise and become the imperial force that many people are warning about.

Can't argue with any of that really.

If the EU does go down the complete federalisation route, I can only see that being divisive as some nations will actively support it whilst it will probably persuade many other nations to leave.

My money is on a collapse.

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4 hours ago, RPG said:

Can't argue with any of that really.

If the EU does go down the complete federalisation route, I can only see that being divisive as some nations will actively support it whilst it will probably persuade many other nations to leave.

My money is on a collapse.

It is just the nature of the beast for institutions to try and grow. Before the beginning of the First World War government spending in Europe was between 10 and 20% of GDP. Today it is approaching 50% across Europe. A government will always seek to grow by raising taxes and spending money on social schemes just as a businessman  will look to grow his own business. The only time this stops in when they face competition or the economies of scale stop working in their favour. For government it is when the public resist tax rises and vote for conservative parties.

The EU has behaved in exactly this pattern. It has continued to grow by adding new member states, creating a monetary union and now wants military union and greater federalisation of law making. Eventually other countries will take a look at this and decide that they want to get off. Smaller nations who are still contributors will be required to pick up the slack caused by our departure. Nations like Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium etc might find they also are becoming more sceptical about the institution of the EU.

The EU has behaved as any other empire of the past but has sought to expand itself through economic policies rather than conquest. The results, however, have remained pretty much the same. ALL empires over reach, ALL empires fail in the end.

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Ultimately free trade agreements are good for countries with a trade surplus, something to sell to the world.

For Britain, which runs a huge trade deficit, they're not so great as they allow native producers to be out competed by bigger nations.

Free trade isn't all it is cracked up to be. Japan has repatriated it's own motor manufacturing precisely because it struck a free trade agreement with the EU. It no longer has tariffs on it's cars so no longer needs to produce them inside the EU.

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1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

It is just the nature of the beast for institutions to try and grow. Before the beginning of the First World War government spending in Europe was between 10 and 20% of GDP. Today it is approaching 50% across Europe. A government will always seek to grow by raising taxes and spending money on social schemes just as a businessman  will look to grow his own business. The only time this stops in when they face competition or the economies of scale stop working in their favour. For government it is when the public resist tax rises and vote for conservative parties.

The EU has behaved in exactly this pattern. It has continued to grow by adding new member states, creating a monetary union and now wants military union and greater federalisation of law making. Eventually other countries will take a look at this and decide that they want to get off. Smaller nations who are still contributors will be required to pick up the slack caused by our departure. Nations like Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium etc might find they also are becoming more sceptical about the institution of the EU.

The EU has behaved as any other empire of the past but has sought to expand itself through economic policies rather than conquest. The results, however, have remained pretty much the same. ALL empires over reach, ALL empires fail in the end.

The Republic of Ireland are net contributors to the EU budget for the first time.  They will also be required to pick up the slack by our departure.

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6 minutes ago, johnh said:

The Republic of Ireland are net contributors to the EU budget for the first time.  They will also be required to pick up the slack by our departure.

With the amount of money we have had to give them to buy ourselves out ( which may I add Boris said wouldn’t cost us a penny to leave) they won’t miss our money for many years to come. 
But it’s estimated once the interest is added to the loan it will take a generation to pay it back, smart move that. 

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On 01/02/2020 at 04:46, Palfy said:

Very true, did you get to see the news reports of the celebrations going on around the country, for me they were reminiscent of the VE Day parties after the war which were completely understandable after such a momentous occasion.
Why they felt that they need to show there pleasure in this way is beyond me, it just shows there lack of class and understanding of what has just occurred in my eyes and they want us to unite as one and move forward. 
Well if that’s the face of Britain 🇬🇧 that they want to betray to the EU and the rest of the world, that they need to work, trade and form friendships with then I want nothing to do with them, for me it showed an embarrassing form of nationalism fever that I want know part of, and the sticking of two fingers up to the remainers and the rest of the EU. 
What was largely the feeling of most EU citizens to see images like that coming from Britain, it would be interesting to know. 

I must say the reports on the celebrations were indeed framed as nationalism.  EU continentals who only have a passing intrest in brexit, still view it with disbelief.

The next phase will be very interesting.  The project is most definitely now on brexiters and you can already sense the nervousness.  

I see only two outcomes.  Brexit will either be a democratic failure if the UK continues to follow EU rules without a say to protect its economy ; or it will be an economic failure if the UK tries to sever ties to its biggest economic partner.

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13 hours ago, johnh said:

The Republic of Ireland are net contributors to the EU budget for the first time.  They will also be required to pick up the slack by our departure.

And that shift in status from net recipient to net contributor will start to apply to other member states soon - not just to replace the UK substantial net contributions but also required to fund the heavy subsidies for the imminent new members of the club.

The table in the linked article is not good news for around 10 current EU countries who are still just net beneficiaries.

Cyrpus, Spain, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Bulgaria and even Belgium and Luxembourg may soon find they are expected to put more in than they take out, for the first time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48256318

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3 minutes ago, pete0 said:

That's some seriously brilliant crossword setting, I was a serious cryptic addict for many years but rarely saw anything that clever. 

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6 hours ago, pete0 said:

86671195_3060140667359159_43651830190828

Can we ask for two passports with one for Brexiteers and another for remainers. We shouldn't suffer because of the racists and media influenced numpty's. 

People aren’t influenced by the media I have had that confirmation from a Trump supporter. 

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13 hours ago, MikeO said:

Daft thing is we're still in the "transition period" for the rest of the year so even if we'd remained he'd be stood in the same queue anyway.

I really can't imagine too many people are going to get the Brexit they expected.

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On 14/02/2020 at 17:44, pete0 said:

86671195_3060140667359159_43651830190828

Can we ask for two passports with one for Brexiteers and another for remainers. We shouldn't suffer because of the racists and media influenced numpty's. 

Nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit. Schiphol airport is famous for its delays to passenger processing - and has been for many years.  And it is not uncommon for the non EU arrivals queue to move a lot faster than the EU queue.

It is frustrating but can't be blamed on brexit I'm afraid.

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