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On 27/03/2020 at 15:57, Matt said:

I usually agree with you, but half of not most of them have been part of the problem over the past decade. 

Yes I agree; May especially was a disaster but I think she would do a better job on Corona.  Johnson is just a really low bar.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/opinion/coronavirus-uk-boris-johnson.html Britain needs a leader, not a joker.

 

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12 minutes ago, holystove said:

Yes I agree; May especially was a disaster but I think she would do a better job on Corona.  Johnson is just a really low bar.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/opinion/coronavirus-uk-boris-johnson.html Britain needs a leader, not a joker.

 

That article is correct in every statement it makes, I urge all who believe BJ is the right person to steer us through this to please read the article. 

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41 minutes ago, holystove said:

Yes I agree; May especially was a disaster but I think she would do a better job on Corona.  Johnson is just a really low bar.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/opinion/coronavirus-uk-boris-johnson.html Britain needs a leader, not a joker.

 

I don’t think she, or anyone else would, for reasons I’ve mentioned earlier. Curious why you think she would though?

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29 minutes ago, holystove said:

Yes I agree; May especially was a disaster but I think she would do a better job on Corona.  Johnson is just a really low bar.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/opinion/coronavirus-uk-boris-johnson.html Britain needs a leader, not a joker.

Being picky the Falstaff/Henry V analogy doesn't work because Henry V was (if we're referencing Shakespeare which I'm sure the writer is) an indolent drunk and Falstaff's great mate when Prince of Wales; then he stepped up.

I'd still rather have him in charge than Trump though, like I'd rather Erich Honecker over Pol Pot.

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11 hours ago, Matt said:

I don’t think she, or anyone else would, for reasons I’ve mentioned earlier. Curious why you think she would though?

As mentioned in the article, he wasn't serious about the severity of the virus.  As late as March he was talking about shaking hands in hospitals with Corona patients. May wouldn't have done that, she certainly wouldn't have boasted about it.  He sent out all the wrong signals when it was clear countries with as good or better health care services as the UK were already failing.

May didn't surround herselves with exceptionalists like Cummings who pushed for a different approach (herd immunity) to the rest of the world as they assumed to be smarter.  There are times when it is not relevant to push people to think outside the box.

May would have put fighting Corona first, Boris always weighs up if it doesn't hurt brexit.

Mike is right, he's better than Trump.. but that's about it.

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18 minutes ago, holystove said:

As mentioned in the article, he wasn't serious about the severity of the virus.  As late as March he was talking about shaking hands in hospitals with Corona patients. May wouldn't have done that, she certainly wouldn't have boasted about it.  He sent out all the wrong signals when it was clear countries with as good or better health care services as the UK were already failing.

May didn't surround herselves with exceptionalists like Cummings who pushed for a different approach (herd immunity) to the rest of the world as they assumed to be smarter.  There are times when it is not relevant to push people to think outside the box.

May would have put fighting Corona first, Boris always weighs up if it doesn't hurt brexit.

Mike is right, he's better than Trump.. but that's about it.

She might’ve said she’d put it first, but would’ve dilly-dallied just as long whilst surrounding herself with incompetents rather than exceptionalists. The message that we can do it better than anyone was sent out years ago with the referendum.

I think Boris was using the “keep calm and carry on” approach to buy time because it was the only tool he had available. He fucked up just as pretty much any politician would’ve considering the mess the Tory’s have created over a decade. 

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12 minutes ago, holystove said:

May would have put fighting Corona first, Boris always weighs up if it doesn't hurt brexit.

Your right and on here it is the hardened Brexiteers who are backing him to the hilt, and if to prove my point brought Brexit into the argument in the first place. 
I think it was you that put forward a host of names that could do a better job than him, which in all honesty wasn’t hard for you to do, then straight away you were attacked on the Brexit issue, when we are talking about trying to lead the country in a responsible way against the virus, Brexiteers or more concerned it doesn’t effect Brexit in anyway. 

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32 minutes ago, Matt said:

She might’ve said she’d put it first, but would’ve dilly-dallied just as long whilst surrounding herself with incompetents rather than exceptionalists. The message that we can do it better than anyone was sent out years ago with the referendum.

I think Boris was using the “keep calm and carry on” approach to buy time because it was the only tool he had available. He fucked up just as pretty much any politician would’ve considering the mess the Tory’s have created over a decade. 

"Virus means Virus!" would have been better than "Get Virus Done!" to be fair.

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1 minute ago, Chach said:

"Virus means Virus!" would have been better than "Get Virus Done!" to be fair.

At least there’s a clear definition behind “virus means virus”! I guess “strong and stable” would’ve just become more inappropriate and ironic...

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3 hours ago, johnh said:

I think you mean that Barnier got the hump because we didn't accept everything he demanded.

the UK refuses to provide firm guarantees rather than vague principles on fundamental rights and individual freedoms.”

This is very much tory 101. 

 

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6 hours ago, Matt said:

We should rename Brexit as Broken, because with the Covid and the governments in ability to see that there should be an extension in the negotiations,  the prospect of a no deal looming and combined with the Covid, loses to the ordinary family could spell disaster for many financially. 

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9 minutes ago, Palfy said:

We should rename Brexit as Broken, because with the Covid and the governments in ability to see that there should be an extension in the negotiations,  the prospect of a no deal looming and combined with the Covid, loses to the ordinary family could spell disaster for many financially. 

Since that was always going to be the case it’s going to work as intended 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Since that was always going to be the case it’s going to work as intended 

Still it’s sad that those who can ride out a broken economy would heap more pain on those who cannot. 

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

I said year’s ago our immigration will increase from countries in South America and Africa, my point then was for all those who’s only reason for voting Brexit was because they wanted control of their borders and who was coming in it would be worse with less control if you voted Brexit. 
Firstly the people who are coming in now a lot are from countries that are lawless compared to ours and there beliefs morals  and standards of what is right and wrong for that reason aren’t as high, the migrant workers who were coming from the EU mostly had the same laws and standards as us and could be checked out with the countries they came from. 
What a sorry state Brexiteers have got this country into, because of there narrow minded and short sightedness spurred on by pure racism. 
Well Boris lied to you prayed on your prejudices and you fell for it, your borders are more open than ever with less knowledge and control of who comes in, well great work Brexiteers you must be proud of yourselves, personally I think you’re beyond all normal and reasonable help but you all know that anyway. 

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Yes i see all the students from china and India coming here and paying for education, unlike all the eastern EU block who come here and start drug wars and turn London in to the most violent city in Europe, yes i see your point, and i voted remain.

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6 minutes ago, Tonsta said:

Yes i see all the students from china and India coming here and paying for education, unlike all the eastern EU block who come here and start drug wars and turn London in to the most violent city in Europe, yes i see your point, and i voted remain.

That's just laughable. Can you link a reputable source to back it up? My little cul-de-sac the nicest people are the eastern Europeans who rent here. Don't wish to be harsh but that post is racist pure and simple, you're effectively defining tens of thousands of different people like they're all the same. I despair.

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3 minutes ago, Tonsta said:

Yes i see all the students from china and India coming here and paying for education, unlike all the eastern EU block who come here and start drug wars and turn London in to the most violent city in Europe, yes i see your point, and i voted remain.

There are more people from China and India in this country that shouldn’t be here, working underground who got into this country under fictitious student visas then disappeared, than those who are here legitimately. 
Show me the evidence that attributes the majority of London crime down to the Eastern European’s, your think that was a walk in the park when you start to feel what’s coming our way with the nationalities we are letting in, it’s not organised crime it’s gangs roaming our streets making no go area’s for our children, there are Somalians were I live who terrorising and stabbing people, because it’s part of who they are. 

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14 hours ago, MikeO said:

That's just laughable. Can you link a reputable source to back it up? My little cul-de-sac the nicest people are the eastern Europeans who rent here. Don't wish to be harsh but that post is racist pure and simple, you're effectively defining tens of thousands of different people like they're all the same. I despair.

The old racist card if people dont agree with you, your cul de sac does not represent whats going on.

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40 minutes ago, Tonsta said:

The old racist card if people dont agree with you, your cul de sac does not represent whats going on.

And neither does your view.

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11 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Smearing is a common tactic of the left as it stifles debate. People form their views based on their own experiences. If your experience of Eastern Europeans is bad due to criminal gangs then you are going to naturally form that opinion.

Of course not all Eastern Europeans are criminals and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise, but enough of them are to have a negative impact on your life so that you make an assumption. If your only experience of muslims is grooming gangs and roaming thugs in Rochdale then you are going to form negative opinions about them also.

The left then smears you for this. It prevents debate and allows the criminals to continue under the protection of a complicit population.

You cannot debate with the left, they do so from a disingenuous position. Their beliefs are dogmatic and they suffer from a purity spiral. The left eat their own. Martina Navratilova, a darling of the left, is now outcast for speaking out against trans athletes. It's how the left are.

The left never used to be about this, it was about worker's rights. The old left would have been against a European Union and against mass migration as a form of wage suppression. That argument is stifled under "racism". The globalists get their way and reap massive profits off the back of what amounts to modern slaves.

We're all nazis now.

Couple of points. If Tonsta had said, "unlike all the blacks who come here and start drug wars and turn London in to the most violent city in Europe" would you not consider that racist?

Secondly I'm not I'm not left wing, I've never voted Labour in my life, not even "new" labour; I'm a liberal and left of centre for sure but I've never called anyone a nazi (other than those that wear the badge with pride).

You say yourself, "Of course not all Eastern Europeans are criminals and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise, but enough of them are to have a negative impact on your life so that you make an assumption." I disagree, you don't make an assumption unless you are want to, if you're a sensible human being you look beyond your prejudices and try to find the truth.

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20 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Negative emotions are always more pronounced. You will remember a bad meal more than you will remember a good one. That's just how it is.

And no, I would not call Tonsta racist for saying "all the blacks" I would say it is incorrect but I would understand that London has a particular problem with young black males who are involved in street crime and that would create animosity.

Most people don't know what racism really is. Tonsta's post does not fulfil the requirements to be classified as such. 

So you think having negative emotions about a small sample of people justifies making assumptions on the rest of their race/creed/colour? Not for me.

A significant number of Catholic priests have been exposed as paedophiles but that shouldn't mean anyone can assume they all are/were.

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23 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Nobody really bothered with the EU until the refugee crisis hit and millions of Africans decided they would masquerade as Syrians and hapless European nations just decided to let them all in. The EU was a big proponent of mass migration, Merkel was their poster child. 

The President of Ghana recently spoke about migration and how Africa will never prosper if it's young men just leave for Europe and Europe just keeps taking them.

You're absolutely right that Boris will just replace European migrants with African or Asian migrants. He's still part of the globalist cartels that control the country.

The problem with the EU is the €. Take the coronavirus crisis for example. Europe has been completely disjointed over it. Countries like Italy, Spain and Greece could really do with a round of quantitative easing to boost their economies. The negative impact of currency devaluation would benefit them as they are tourism heavy economies. Cheaper pesetas or lira means cheaper holidays and that's good for their economies.

As it stands they have no control, it's all done in Germany. We are able to QE through the Bank of England and that makes our current "debt" of £65b as it stands totally irrelevant. Everyone else needs to QE as well so the impact on the currency is negligible. However the southern states can't tailor their easing to meet their economic needs.

I voted Brexit and would vote again. The EU is broken and needs to reform. I don't believe it is capable of reform in it's current state. 

I’ve got past the fact we’ve left the EU, but I will admit it leaves a bitter taste. 
My post was aimed solely at people who’s main objective was to vote Brexit just to stop any foreigners entering this country, the article posted by Matt is evidence that that was never going to happen it’s got worse, and everyone of those people who were allowed to enter this country from Asia, Africa, North and South America, Australasia, and some of Europe, could have been stopped at the borders and turned away, but they haven’t because Johnsons lies prayed on the prejudices of people who didn’t want foreigners in this country, and they fell for it. 
All that’s happened is we have traded EU workers for people from all over the world, and we will get nothing back in return. 

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43 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

So you're saying

So you're saying

Twisting words. I did not say it justifies it, I said it explains it and I understand it. Again with the disingenuous arguments.

If someone has a bad experience they are going to express things that way. You have to accept that people are just going to do that and you should appreciate that perhaps a bad experience or even a series of them has coloured their perception.

And you are left wing, you are specifically of the new left irrespective of who you voted for. A liberal, a globalist, a progressive, these are now the defining traits of the left. Worker's rights being a long distant memory

If you look up "justify" in a thesaurus you'll find "explain" as a synonym and vice versa. Again with the disingenuous arguments. You do like to put people into boxes don't you? I'm an individual who looks at the World and comes to my own conclusions, simple; I won't be defined by you or anyone.

 

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You are all fucking stupid. People are people; they have skills and flaws. They will be always come to protect their own.  tSome are pricks some are great people. United we stand, divided we fall, despite ignorance. That’s how we survive. 

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34 minutes ago, Matt said:

You are all fucking stupid. People are people; they have skills and flaws. They will be always come to protect their own.  tSome are pricks some are great people. United we stand, divided we fall, despite ignorance. That’s how we survive. 

Shouldn’t that be we are all fucking stupid 😁

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23 minutes ago, johnh said:

You must have missed the latest news on this as I'm sure you would have posted it if you hadn't.  Nissan are closing their Barcelona plant and moving it to Sunderland.

Good news probably but it's not quite as black and white as you describe it John.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/28/nissan-sunderland-factory-safe-but-plant-in-barcelona-will-close-coronavirus

The decision will mean the loss of 2,800 jobs in Spain but removed a short-term threat to most of the 6,700 jobs at Nissan SunderlandBritain’s biggest car plant in, .

However, the carmaker said it would seek to “improve efficiency” at the factory in the north-east of England as it revealed a plan to reduce annual spending by ¥300bn (£2.3bn) worldwide.

“In western Europe we will maintain production of our core models in Sunderland and improve efficiency,” said Makoto Uchida, Nissan’s chief executive, through a translator.

Unite, the trade union representing British Nissan employees, demanded assurances that the plans for efficiency savings at Sunderland did not include job cuts or changes to workers’ contracts.

Steve Bush, Unite’s national officer for automotive, said: “We are seeking clear assurances from Nissan that the cost-cutting measures spoken about will not impact on our members’ jobs, terms and conditions or other benefits at Europe’s most efficient plant, Sunderland.”

Nissan has previously warned that jobs at Sunderland could be under threat. A no-deal Brexit would jeopardise the “entire business model for Nissan Europe” because of the threat of 10% export duties on the majority of the plant’s production.

David Bailey, a professor of business economics at the University of Birmingham, said options for Nissan in the case of a no-deal Brexit could include refocusing on the UK market.

The plant could also bid to build vehicles for Renault and even Mitsubishi under their three-way carmaking alliance. The three alliance partners on Wednesday said they would employ a “leader-follower” model, with Renault the leader in Europe.

Nissan is in talks over a proposal to build two models for Renault at Sunderland, according to the Financial Times. However, Bailey said the French government’s €5bn (£4.5bn) emergency loan guarantee to help Renault through the pandemic may mean it is less likely to allow production to move to the UK. The French government owns 15% of Renault’s shares.

“[Sunderland] will still have to compete for investment,” Bailey said. “That will be a brutal competition.”

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

I’d love to agree, Mike, but streamlining is what every company has been doing for 10 years. Can’t pin that on Brexit. 

I'm not pinning it on Brexit, I was just pointing out that they're not, "closing their Barcelona plant and moving it to Sunderland" as John suggested.:)

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I'm not pinning it on Brexit, I was just pointing out that they're not, "closing their Barcelona plant and moving it to Sunderland" as John suggested.:)

Mike, I note that your extract is from the Guardian.  Just to provide 'balance', The Telegraph starts its article 'The Japanese company announced its Spanish factory will shut to save costs.  Sunderland will become Nissan's European manufacturing hub as a result'.     Sounds like 'closing their Barcelona plant and moving it to Sunderland' to me.

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2 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, I note that your extract is from the Guardian.  Just to provide 'balance', The Telegraph starts its article 'The Japanese company announced its Spanish factory will shut to save costs.  Sunderland will become Nissan's European manufacturing hub as a result'.     Sounds like 'closing their Barcelona plant and moving it to Sunderland' to me.

Your interpretation of it suggests that Sunderland is somehow going to benefit from it whereas even the Telegraph makes clear that all it'll do is hopefully keep what they already have.

"Sunderland will become Nissan's European manufacturing hub as a result - making it highly likely to stay open and protecting 6,000 workers, along with another 27,000 jobs in the supply chain."

Great news for them without a doubt.

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1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Nissan has a free trade agreement with the EU meaning that there is no need to maintain factories within Europe and can repatriate back to Japan as there will be no tariffs.

The UK may potentially have tariffs and so it is a sensible move to keep production in the UK, particularly as it is a large market for them.

70% of Nissan cars made in Sunderland are exported to the EU.  The UK market is way too small to sustain the plant.

My guess, Nissan is crossing their fingers for no tarriffs on cars between EU and UK on cars; doesnt look likely though.

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Your interpretation of it suggests that Sunderland is somehow going to benefit from it whereas even the Telegraph makes clear that all it'll do is hopefully keep what they already have.

"Sunderland will become Nissan's European manufacturing hub as a result - making it highly likely to stay open and protecting 6,000 workers, along with another 27,000 jobs in the supply chain."

Great news for them without a doubt.

They may even get to build 2 Renault models as well, now that would piss the EU off if that were to happen. 

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20 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Why would they get to build Renaults or why wouldn’t they be happy. 

Why it would piss off the EU (Commission? Member States?) if two Renault models are made in the UK?

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Because Nissan Renault and Mitsubishi are in a alliance, and I’m not sure if they built any Renaults in the Barcelona plant that is shutting, but it was reported that 2 Renault models could be built in Sunderland so I assumed they might be being built in Barcelona at the moment. 
So if this were to happen I don’t think the EU are going to be very happy that Renault have been involved in putting a non EU state in front of a EU state, and would consider building 2 of its models in a non EU state, if this did happen which is a real possibility do you think it would go down well with the EU members, even though for the companies concerned it financially makes more sense for them, taking into account they lost 6.2bn last year and Barcelona was a poor performing factory, and Sunderland was one of their best performing factories?

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Just in the wrong thread.:(

Sorry, feel free to move. I was deciding between coronavirus or government thread. No idea how I ended up posting in the wrong one completely. 

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21 hours ago, holystove said:

70% of Nissan cars made in Sunderland are exported to the EU.  The UK market is way too small to sustain the plant.

My guess, Nissan is crossing their fingers for no tarriffs on cars between EU and UK on cars; doesnt look likely though.

I don't think companies like Nissan 'cross their fingers' on a deal of this scale.  I suspect that they have had numerous discussions with the EU, behind closed doors - which appears to be the way things get done in the EU.

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47 minutes ago, johnh said:

I don't think companies like Nissan 'cross their fingers' on a deal of this scale.

Totally agree with that statement John, they are a global business after all not a market stall that might fly by the seat of their pants. 
But I do feel that there is going to be some sour grapes towards them because they’ve chosen the UK over Spain. 

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4 hours ago, johnh said:

I don't think companies like Nissan 'cross their fingers' on a deal of this scale.  I suspect that they have had numerous discussions with the EU, behind closed doors - which appears to be the way things get done in the EU.

I'm sorry John but that's not how any of this works.  If there is no deal between the EU and the UK that put tarriffs at 0% on cars , there won't be a 0% tarriff on cars.  

They only way to "avoid" these tarriffs is if the UK government promises to pay the 10% tarriff instead of Nissan.  Reportedly they got this promise from Theresa May in 2016 and I assume Nissan is still counting on that. (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/uk-letter-vowed-to-protect-nissan-from-brexit-fallout-1.3781568)

Coincidentally such 'State Aid' would be illegal as an EU member state.  So of course EU to UK, Nissan would still have to pay those tarriffs.  I don't know if this influenced the decision.

 

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26 minutes ago, holystove said:

I'm sorry John but that's not how any of this works.  If there is no deal between the EU and the UK that put tarriffs at 0% on cars , there won't be a 0% tarriff on cars.  

They only way to "avoid" these tarriffs is if the UK government promises to pay the 10% tarriff instead of Nissan.  Reportedly they got this promise from Theresa May in 2016 and I assume Nissan is still counting on that. (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/uk-letter-vowed-to-protect-nissan-from-brexit-fallout-1.3781568)

Coincidentally such 'State Aid' would be illegal as an EU member state.  So of course EU to UK, Nissan would still have to pay those tarriffs.  I don't know if this influenced the decision.

 

The truth is Holystove nobody really knows how any of this is going to pan out, it seems that the goal posts are constantly moving between the EU and Britain. 
I am beginning to feel that the EU are more afraid of a no deal than our government, my biggest fear I will be honest was Britain crashing out with a no deal.

 I am still very much a pro EU supporter, but it saddens me to say that Britain appear to be gaining the upper hand, which in reality I don’t feel will make us a stronger economy but maybe not quite as weak as one thought, but for the EU a no deal and Britain riding the waves could lead to the near break up of the EU, if not definitely more member states leaving. 
And that would be a very sad time for Europe and the world. 

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16 hours ago, holystove said:

I'm sorry John but that's not how any of this works.  If there is no deal between the EU and the UK that put tarriffs at 0% on cars , there won't be a 0% tarriff on cars.  

They only way to "avoid" these tarriffs is if the UK government promises to pay the 10% tarriff instead of Nissan.  Reportedly they got this promise from Theresa May in 2016 and I assume Nissan is still counting on that. (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/uk-letter-vowed-to-protect-nissan-from-brexit-fallout-1.3781568)

Coincidentally such 'State Aid' would be illegal as an EU member state.  So of course EU to UK, Nissan would still have to pay those tarriffs.  I don't know if this influenced the decision.

 

But the French government can inject multi-millions into Renault?   Still, France and Germany are law's unto themselves in the EU and Germany's stance in this respect could signal the end of the euro and the end of the EU as we know it.

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

But the French government can inject multi-millions into Renault?   Still, France and Germany are law's unto themselves in the EU and Germany's stance in this respect could signal the end of the euro and the end of the EU as we know it.

Countries having their own rules? The rich dictating the poor? Sounds all too familiar 

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On 31/05/2020 at 13:34, johnh said:

But the French government can inject multi-millions into Renault?   Still, France and Germany are law's unto themselves in the EU and Germany's stance in this respect could signal the end of the euro and the end of the EU as we know it.

The French government owns 15% of Renault and has promised them a multi billion euro bailout or loan. 
Which is why I can’t see Renault in conjunction with Nissan being allowed to build 2 models in the UK, I can see the French government for the good of the EU trying to get Renault to object to Nissans decision to shut Barcelona over Sunderland, by using their friendship and alliance as a leaver, after all in the bigger picture if we succeed after Brexit then the EU will have failed.

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28 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The French government owns 15% of Renault and has promised them a multi billion euro bailout or loan. 
Which is why I can’t see Renault in conjunction with Nissan being allowed to build 2 models in the UK, I can see the French government for the good of the EU trying to get Renault to object to Nissans decision to shut Barcelona over Sunderland, by using their friendship and alliance as a leaver, after all in the bigger picture if we succeed after Brexit then the EU will have failed.

I think you mean "lever" Palfy mate, there's quite a difference.😂

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