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Personally I dont see anything from him that suggests he will score enough goals to warrant him starting every game this season. 

He has many other virtues but he has to score more to stay in the team for the long term.

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I think if brands would have been here earlier DCL would have had a season on loan somewhere to get game time. Look at  Harry Kane went on loan to Norwich and didn’t do owt. Spurs were looking at getting rid then it just clicked for him. DCL has said himself up to the age of about 16-17 he was a midfielder and got moved upfront and you can tell that from the way he plays as he knows what a midfielder wants from a forward. I think with him in positions he either over thinks things or he lacks the composure to finish clinically. I like him as a player. He puts a shift in and plays the game with a smile on his face and lets not forget he is a baby. We sign a Kean or a Leao I’d be well happy with that as our forward line 

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He probably will be our number one striker again this season the way our transfer window is going, which if I’m being honest doesn’t fill me with much confidence in his ability to score goals. 

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16 hours ago, Bailey said:

Personally I dont see anything from him that suggests he will score enough goals to warrant him starting every game this season. 

He has many other virtues but he has to score more to stay in the team for the long term.

He can only do that if he’s allowed to play though. 

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23 hours ago, Palfy said:

He probably will be our number one striker again this season the way our transfer window is going, which if I’m being honest doesn’t fill me with much confidence in his ability to score goals. 

If I read correctly we didn’t sign our first player last year until July 24th and the vast majority would say we had an excellent window. A lot of players were gone for major tournaments as well. Patience. 

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13 hours ago, Matt said:

He can only do that if he’s allowed to play though. 

He has had quite a lot of opportunity for a lad his age in the last 2 seasons. 

Aside from opportunity, I just dont think he is a very good finisher. His technique isnt good enough to score many from long range, he doesnt really beat a man and therefore his goals largely have to come from others putting them on a sixpence for him.

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8 hours ago, Bailey said:

He has had quite a lot of opportunity for a lad his age in the last 2 seasons. 

Aside from opportunity, I just dont think he is a very good finisher. His technique isnt good enough to score many from long range, he doesnt really beat a man and therefore his goals largely have to come from others putting them on a sixpence for him.

His only real run was towards the end of last season, and (as I’ve said before) the entire team seemed to improve at the same time he got regular game play. I’ll stop here before I go around in circles 

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12 hours ago, Matt said:

His only real run was towards the end of last season, and (as I’ve said before) the entire team seemed to improve at the same time he got regular game play. I’ll stop here before I go around in circles 

I should probably do the same but I have shown before that he has had runs of games before. 

I dont deny that we did improve as a team but I disagree over who was the chicken or egg and whilst he has many other virtues as I have also said, he doesnt score enough goals himself. Do you disagree with the points I made in my original 2nd paragraph? 

Btw I would love to be wrong because if I am we have a real player on our hands! 

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I should probably do the same but I have shown before that he has had runs of games before. 

I dont deny that we did improve as a team but I disagree over who was the chicken or egg and whilst he has many other virtues as I have also said, he doesnt score enough goals himself. Do you disagree with the points I made in my original 2nd paragraph? 

Btw I would love to be wrong because if I am we have a real player on our hands! 

Not at all. His finishing is poor, but his role is what’s important 

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Didn’t someone show that if he would have played a full season he would have got about 20 goals?

Doesn’t seem that bad to be fair. Have we had anyone get 20 Prem goals ever? I know Lukaku got close, but can’t remember if the top of my head if he hit 20.

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Didn’t someone show that if he would have played a full season he would have got about 20 goals?

Doesn’t seem that bad to be fair. Have we had anyone get 20 Prem goals ever? I know Lukaku got close, but can’t remember if the top of my head if he hit 20.

I kind of showed that his tally of goals + assists would be about 20. Thing is I don’t care who scores the goals - our front 4 could get 12 each or we could get lukaku back and have 1 player score 15-20

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11 minutes ago, Btay said:

I kind of showed that his tally of goals + assists would be about 20. Thing is I don’t care who scores the goals - our front 4 could get 12 each or we could get lukaku back and have 1 player score 15-20

I’m the same mate.

Not bothered about individual stats, just how Everton do. 100 goals shared by 100 players is still more than 50 goals shared between 2.

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Didn’t someone show that if he would have played a full season he would have got about 20 goals?

Doesn’t seem that bad to be fair. Have we had anyone get 20 Prem goals ever? I know Lukaku got close, but can’t remember if the top of my head if he hit 20.

That’s the problem with people posting stats all reality goes out the window, as with Matts he only had a real run at the end of the season. 

He played in 35 games last season 19 starts and 16 as a sub and scored 6 goals, how you equate that to if he played a full season he would have scored 20 goals I haven’t a clue that would have taken him 3 seasons roughly, and how Matt thinks that nearly half a season is just the end of the season again I don’t know 🤷‍♂️

He has had plenty of opportunity to stake his claim in the team as a striker but hasn’t taken it his finishing is not good enough, his attempts on target are not good enough, his attempts of target are not good enough. 

He does have good attributes he’s getting stronger and hard to knock off the ball and he has a lot of pace, so try him in a different position possibly out wide or give him a shot in Gylfi’s position you never Know and Gylfi has no competition for his spot, but he’s no striker. 

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Simple mate, people use a goals per minute ratio, and equate to that. If that person carries on the same consistency..... rest is a matter of mathematics.

I see how and why, but don’t necessarily agree.

Take for instance the expected goals farce. It’s just not how football works. And the expected goals per game showed that to be true.

DCL should only be played up front though. Playing him in another position will be going backwards. If a player plays well on a position, you don’t move him somewhere else.

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7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

That’s the problem with people posting stats all reality goes out the window, as with Matts he only had a real run at the end of the season. 

He played in 35 games last season 19 starts and 16 as a sub and scored 6 goals, how you equate that to if he played a full season he would have scored 20 goals I haven’t a clue that would have taken him 3 seasons roughly, and how Matt thinks that nearly half a season is just the end of the season again I don’t know 🤷‍♂️

He has had plenty of opportunity to stake his claim in the team as a striker but hasn’t taken it his finishing is not good enough, his attempts on target are not good enough, his attempts of target are not good enough. 

He does have good attributes he’s getting stronger and hard to knock off the ball and he has a lot of pace, so try him in a different position possibly out wide or give him a shot in Gylfi’s position you never Know and Gylfi has no competition for his spot, but he’s no striker. 

Because Matt recognises that DCL only started regularly from Feb is the last 3rd of the season. All the other appearances were here and there which gives no chance for consistency. It’s not that complicated really. 

The other factor for the end of the season improvement was also Digne and Bernard getting an understanding. 

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7 minutes ago, Shukes said:

And Matt was taking about a consistent run, not total matches. 

19 starts through a season isn’t playing a whole half of a season continuously. You just woke up Palf?

He had a consistent run it wasn’t just 5 or 6 games at the end of the season, how many is just the end of the season for fuck  14 ,15 or 12 seems like it’s any figure to suit your argument that he didn’t have a fair run, and you didn’t answer the 20 goals a season bollocks, come on mate stop inventing numbers. 

Tell me when it’s your birthday ( that’s if you know because it involves figures) and I’ll buy you a calculator 😜👍

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19 minutes ago, Matt said:

Because Matt recognises that DCL only started regularly from Feb is the last 3rd of the season. All the other appearances were here and there which gives no chance for consistency. It’s not that complicated really. 

The other factor for the end of the season improvement was also Digne and Bernard getting an understanding. 

So is a third only the end of the season for me the end of the season would be 5 or 6 games, that’s when most people would be saying we are near the end of the season, I’ve never heard or seen anyone use that terminology when there is still 14 games to go until you posted it. 

I don’t want to dwell on that point just trying to add a bit of balance and perspective to what constitutes near the end of the season. 

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10 minutes ago, Palfy said:

He had a consistent run it wasn’t just 5 or 6 games at the end of the season, how many is just the end of the season for fuck  14 ,15 or 12 seems like it’s any figure to suit your argument that he didn’t have a fair run, and you didn’t answer the 20 goals a season bollocks, come on mate stop inventing numbers. 

Tell me when it’s your birthday ( that’s if you know because it involves figures) and I’ll buy you a calculator 😜👍

First, read it mate. I said ... someone put it up.... I was pretty clear about that. Couldn’t be any clearer. 

Haha he even posted right after my post.... or you just reading posts in isolation? You got some fetish about trying to prove me wrong haven’t you x come on you can say it, we’re all big boys here xx

Secondly. Yes I did answer it... again, very clearly. I even said that I didn’t necessarily agree with it, but I could easily see why people use those stats. Again.... couldn’t be any clearer.

Also made my point very clear.... yawn.... it’s about the team and not the individual stats that count. I’m an Everton fan before any single player. 

You awake enough to understand now mate? Or should I call back after your morning coffee when your brain starts to work? 

Joking and sarcasm aside though. This argument has come up for numerous players over the years. Games here and there with no consistency isn’t a way to judge a player. When DCL did have a decent run... at the end of the season.... he played well and that corresponded with the team going on a good run of results. 

Now as Bailey has said, that may or may not be due to DCL, but facts are facts... he was playing, and we did go on a run.

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What we as a club are missing is a player that can score a goal out of nothing, and change a draw into a win. If DCL can do that then great,  he'll save us a load of money. I personally would like to give him a full season as are main striker to see if he can do it, but I wouldn't be happy going into the new season with just one striker because we have no one else good enough.  

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53 minutes ago, Shukes said:

When DCL did have a decent run... at the end of the season....

You can be a right bitch at times 😀

That’s my biggest issue you and others keep saying end of season as if he had a better shot at it he would have been better. 

I’m saying and standing by that his run started way before the end of the season, do your homework and look at when his continuous run started, then get back to me with what you discover and we’ll see I was right all along ( that’s my Brian Clough take on it ) 😀

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5 minutes ago, JimmytheJimster said:

What we as a club are missing is a player that can score a goal out of nothing, and change a draw into a win. If DCL can do that then great,  he'll save us a load of money. I personally would like to give him a full season as are main striker to see if he can do it, but I wouldn't be happy going into the new season with just one striker because we have no one else good enough.  

I think 🤔 

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8 minutes ago, JimmytheJimster said:

We ain't going to get a proven striker without champions league football, so do we take a risk on DCL or risk spending millions on an unproven striker for it not to work?

Take a risk on Kean, if it doesn’t work out you’d still get most of the money back. I’d be more than happy having him and DCL switching, if one of them is scoring they keep their place. Could also give us a chance to play two up front in some games. 

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36 minutes ago, Palfy said:

You can be a right bitch at times 😀

That’s my biggest issue you and others keep saying end of season as if he had a better shot at it he would have been better. 

I’m saying and standing by that his run started way before the end of the season, do your homework and look at when his continuous run started, then get back to me with what you discover and we’ll see I was right all along ( that’s my Brian Clough take on it ) 😀

No I get you 100%. My point is that during this run, he did well and the team did well. Before that he wasn’t getting a run of games, and the team weren’t doing well at all.

Would you rather we had a striker that could knock 49 goals a season, but the team did shit?

I much prefer to have goals shared and the team climbing the league.

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

So is a third only the end of the season for me the end of the season would be 5 or 6 games, that’s when most people would be saying we are near the end of the season, I’ve never heard or seen anyone use that terminology when there is still 14 games to go until you posted it. 

I don’t want to dwell on that point just trying to add a bit of balance and perspective to what constitutes near the end of the season. 

I mentioned from February because that’s when the team and results started improving. You’re the one talking about end of the season :huh:  I deliberately mentioned the timeline as I did, as it also coincided with DCL starting consistently, meaning Richarlison wasnt being played out of position and there was also the link up of Digne and Bernard. I’m not suggesting DCL saved the season all by himself, just that he was a big factor. His finishing is still not the best, but it will improve as will his confidence. Only if he is given a prolonged run though. We saw the same with Bernard too; took a while for him to get used to things, being used as a sub very often to get up to speed before he eventually nailed down his position. Player development takes time and can only develop on the pitch. 

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14 minutes ago, StevO said:

Take a risk on Kean, if it doesn’t work out you’d still get most of the money back. I’d be more than happy having him and DCL switching, if one of them is scoring they keep their place. Could also give us a chance to play two up front in some games. 

Yeah I'd go with something like that, it would give us a plan B and we wouldn't be so predictable. I also wouldn't mind getting Costa if the price was right (10-15 mill) at least he'd gives us that aggression and could teach DCL a thing or two.

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He played 11 games out of 12 and scored 2 goals at the end of the season.

Comparing the start of the season to the end of the season the amount we scored with him in the team seemed to be similar to the amount we scored with him in the side. 

Regardless of stats though, I dont see him being able to score the number of goals we will need him to if we want to get into the top 6 or top 4. He just isnt a natural finisher, he isnt creative and he can only beat a man in the air or in a foot race. Its the reason why he comes to the fore in the harder games when he has to rough up defenders and chase the through balls, as opposed to unlocking packed defences with his movement, skill and finishing.

 

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10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

He played 11 games out of 12 and scored 2 goals at the end of the season.

Comparing the start of the season to the end of the season the amount we scored with him in the team seemed to be similar to the amount we scored with him in the side. 

Regardless of stats though, I dont see him being able to score the number of goals we will need him to if we want to get into the top 6 or top 4. He just isnt a natural finisher, he isnt creative and he can only beat a man in the air or in a foot race. Its the reason why he comes to the fore in the harder games when he has to rough up defenders and chase the through balls, as opposed to unlocking packed defences with his movement, skill and finishing.

All that occupying and hustling defenders creates space for others though, and if it leads to others scoring then his lower goal return doesn’t worry me as much.  But I’m going around in circles again :lol: 

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I think the team players and individual players are staking their claim on this forum.

Matt I would like you in my starting 11 as I think you would add to the team. 

Palfy has previously stamped his mark when he explained that he was a dictator of a boss, so I’m not surprised he is more interested in the individual rather than collective.

Not sure where Bailey is going with this, think your arguing your own point about DCL not being good enough as a goal scorer, where Matt is arguing about his worth to the team.

Either way, Bailey, Palfy, your not making the starting 11 I’m afraid. Not gonna give you a locker 😉

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5 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I think the team players and individual players are staking their claim on this forum.

Matt I would like you in my starting 11 as I think you would add to the team. 

Palfy has previously stamped his mark when he explained that he was a dictator of a boss, so I’m not surprised he is more interested in the individual rather than collective.

Not sure where Bailey is going with this, think your arguing your own point about DCL not being good enough as a goal scorer, where Matt is arguing about his worth to the team.

Either way, Bailey, Palfy, your not making the starting 11 I’m afraid. Not gonna give you a locker 😉

Thanks for your misjudged insight I am the voice of reason and not the Ogre you portrayed, also Bailey is a very astute poster with a wealth of knowledge, you may act like Koeman and take our lockers away but like Niasse we will prove you wrong.

Hope you like humble pie 😋

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18 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I think the team players and individual players are staking their claim on this forum.

Matt I would like you in my starting 11 as I think you would add to the team. 

Palfy has previously stamped his mark when he explained that he was a dictator of a boss, so I’m not surprised he is more interested in the individual rather than collective.

Not sure where Bailey is going with this, think your arguing your own point about DCL not being good enough as a goal scorer, where Matt is arguing about his worth to the team.

Either way, Bailey, Palfy, your not making the starting 11 I’m afraid. Not gonna give you a locker 😉

You’ve clearly never seen me play :P besides, I’d be injured before the end of the first half :D 

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17 hours ago, Matt said:

Not at all. His finishing is poor, but his role is what’s important 

This for me. We hardly made any chances for him, but his hard work makes it easier for the midfield to score. I'd be questioning Bernard, Walcott and Gana for not scoring enough before DCL. Even Richarlison and Sigurdssen probably missed more gearing chances, I can't really think of many were DCL should have scored. 

He only played half a season worth of minutes. If he'd played a full one his expected goals would be 11 and expected assists 10 which would be enough to justify his place for me, but add to that he gets the players behind him playing better. He's not a natural finisher but our system doesn't create much chances for him, with 4 goals from his head and 2 good finishes. I'd only say one maybe two were put on a plate. Lookman cross for one header can't remember which game (but must will remember Lookman's cross), and the other being a cut back to him were he drilled it low into the near corner, possibly against City. 

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59 minutes ago, Matt said:

All that occupying and hustling defenders creates space for others though, and if it leads to others scoring then his lower goal return doesn’t worry me as much.  But I’m going around in circles again :lol: 

But thats what we love doing on here ;)

Give it a couple of days and we can do it all again. If you want to mix it up a bit you can pick a different player!

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1 minute ago, sibdane said:

I don't think it's too much to ask that he score more. I know he brings others into play, but he's also going to get chances, and some of the ones he missed last season should've been goals. 

That goes for most players. Kane misses 2 easy ones most matches but gets the third so very little gets mentioned about his misses. Our system doesn't give one player that much opportunity in a game with the chances spread across the midfield too. 

I don't think DCL gives us too many 'he should have scored that moments'. Bernard would be the first player that comes to mind from last season. 

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2 minutes ago, pete0 said:

That goes for most players. Kane misses 2 easy ones most matches but gets the third so very little gets mentioned about his misses. Our system doesn't give one player that much opportunity in a game with the chances spread across the midfield too. 

I don't think DCL gives us too many 'he should have scored that moments'. Bernard would be the first player that comes to mind from last season. 

Yes, and Bernard should've done better too. That's all fine that other players miss too, the point remains the same. 

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8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

We hardly made any chances for him,

That’s more to do with his own positional sense he doesn’t make the right runs in or around the box to allow people to play him in, he is very static he doesn’t possess what most good strikers have which is to know when and where to make your move to create the space necessary for others to find you. 

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38 minutes ago, sibdane said:

Yes, and Bernard should've done better too. That's all fine that other players miss too, the point remains the same. 

Think you're missing my point. We don't give him a great deal of opportunities. Proportionally he's not missing any more than say Kane for Spurs. Whereas proportionally to DCL the players behind him are missing more. 

The role we ask of DCL is closer to Firminio. He's there to keep moving, to keep dragging the centre halves and full backs out of position to make space for our midfield to exploit. He's excelling at that role and stats wise his goals and assists are solid. 

38 minutes ago, Palfy said:

That’s more to do with his own positional sense he doesn’t make the right runs in or around the box to allow people to play him in, he is very static he doesn’t possess what most good strikers have which is to know when and where to make your move to create the space necessary for others to find you. 

For me he's smart in his running and positioning. Four of his goals are headers where he's in the right place and another is he's moved into position for a cut back. 6th goal was the counter when Gana put him through. So he's only had the one from the middle and that was when Cardiff were pushed forward looking for a last minute equaliser. 

For me he'd get more chances if Sigurdssen was more proactive and Gana faster at playing the ball/more adventurous. That or if we switched tactics. 

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6 hours ago, JimmytheJimster said:

Yeah I'd go with something like that, it would give us a plan B and we wouldn't be so predictable. I also wouldn't mind getting Costa if the price was right (10-15 mill) at least he'd gives us that aggression and could teach DCL a thing or two.

Me too, he’s a proper handful and I think DCL could learn a bit from him. 

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On 14/07/2019 at 15:48, pete0 said:

I'd be questioning Bernard, Walcott and Gana for not scoring enough before DCL.

DCL 6 goals 2 assists for a striker and the amount of game time he had last season that’s a woeful return. 

Walcott 5 goals 2 assists for a winger and the amount of game time he played that’s a good return. 

I agree with Bernard and Gana that they should have contributed more, there’s not many players you shout at don’t shoot but Gana is one very poor ability when taking a shot at goal, and Bernard is a choker in front of goal he’s missed chances that would have been easier to score, but with Walcott your way off the mark. 

But let’s not blame others for DCLs own inadequacies he doesn’t score enough and his assists don’t make up for that. 

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9 hours ago, barryj said:

I wouldn’t! 

Bernard and Walcott missed more easier chances, as did Richarlison and Sig but they scored enough to make up for it. Gana never even scored a single goal. 

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

DCL 6 goals 2 assists for a striker and the amount of game time he had last season that’s a woeful return. 

Walcott 5 goals 2 assists for a winger and the amount of game time he played that’s a good return. 

I agree with Bernard and Gana that they should have contributed more, there’s not many players you shout at don’t shoot but Gana is one very poor ability when taking a shot at goal, and Bernard is a choker in front of goal he’s missed chances that would have been easier to score, but with Walcott your way off the mark. 

But let’s not blame others for DCLs own inadequacies he doesn’t score enough and his assists don’t make up for that. 

I like Walcott and think he done enough last season, not spectacular but done his job, only named him as he missed a few sitters whereas DCL didn't get as many on a plate. 

Fantasy football shows he got 5 assists. For the minutes he played and in the system we do he's one of the first names in the team for me. 

Premier league have stats for big chances missed. No idea how accurate they are though as I'm sure I've been left holding my head more than 4 times after a Bernard chance. Goals scored, big chances missed, conversion rate

Richarlison 13/8= 1.63

Sigurdssen 13/10= 1.30

DCL 6/7= 0.86

Walcott 5/9= 0.56

Bernard 1/4= 0.2

In comparison to a few strikers:

Aubameyang 22/23= 0.96

Aguero 21/10= 2.10

Vardy 17/18=.0.94

Kane 17/11= 1.55

Wilson 14/21= 0.67

Firminio 12/9= 1.33

Rashford 10/16= 0.63

DCL only has a small sample size but he's not doing too bad considering finishing isn't his strong suit. Holds his own against most strikers in the league. 

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The chances missed stats dont tell you the whole story though. Im not sure what they quantify as a big either. For me a free shot on the edge of the box in the PL is a huge chance but I suspect that wont count whereas a shot in the 6 yard box with the defender inches away and easily getting the block in does. 

I think its hard to argue that anyone but Siggy, Richarlison and Digne pulled their weight in the goals / assists categories. Bernard was terrible when it came to the final ball or shot but he was instrumental in a lot of our build up, in a similar way that DCL was. 

I dont disagree that DCL holds his own against some strikers in the league, but he doesnt hold a candle to the quality of strikers that finished above us and thats the gap we need to close. Bernard gets the benefit of the doubt for another season given how he came into the side last year but DCL knows what this league is all about now and he has to score and create more.

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