Finn balor Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) Its not FM 2016.... walshes recent work will all be the property of leicester city fc.How many fresh players could he have scouted in 40 days when there wasnt any games being played?Scouting isnt done on a pad and pen.... its intellectual property owned by the company the scout works for. Every game for every targetted player has a report... the reports have a recommendation.Question:- do you think leiecester allowed everton to target players scouted by walsh whilst being paid wages by them? What do you mean property of Leicester City? You seriously think that just because he scouted players at Leicester he can't attempt to buy them for Everton? It might be intellectual property as you call it but the players are not leicesters. If you believe that then explain the purchase of gueye? At the end of the day we should have had our targets and then a plan b and c. We did what we always do. Half hearted efforts and were left with our dick in our hands. We had an opportunity to really kick on if we would have signed quality in the final third. Instead we have one out of form striker a loan player that West Ham couldn't get rid of quick enough and kone. It is just not good enough. Edited September 5, 2016 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Maybe we'll know Walsh's worth in two years time. This is a long term job we need from him. Can't expect over night miracles. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Maybe we'll know Walsh's worth in two years time. This is a long term job we need from him. Can't expect over night miracles. Spot on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 I completely agree with Haf's view on this. I actually think we have quite a repair job to be done on the scouting piece. I remember Louis posting a book or article that one of our old head scout's wrote about how when Moyes came in one the good things he did was overhaul the scouting system and had a room in Finch Farm with the target formation drawn up and 1st to 3rd transfer target against each position that would improve the existing squad etc. We picked up quite a few under the radar good quality players under Moyes. My view is that under Martinez, this fell away a bit. Martinez was all about coaching, positivity and bringing players on. I didn't see any evidence while he was at Everton of great scouting and player identification. Both Barry and Lukaku didn;t really need a scouting network to identify. Alcaraz, McCarthy and Kone were from Wigan and known. McGeady, Niasse, Lennon, Deulofeu, Traore, Atsu, Robles, Besic, Eto'o Out of those I'd give you Deulofeu and Besic as possible talent if they stay injury free and work a lot harder. Lennon in my opinion is a "solid" rotation player. I wouldn't say that any of them have proved to be a an unknown diamond destined for great things. You could argue that Stones, Fellaini, Baines, Jagielka, Coleman and I'm sure there are more were "identified" as good targets and fulfilled their potential. MikeO, London Blue, Lowensda and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 If I start slating Lukaku will my posts be 'credible'? credibility comes with the ability to argue points objectively and come to a conclusion, not by making brash unsupported statements. whatever people think of my opinions - I back them up with reasons brining in facts as much as possible, I don't just say "sack him" or he's "gonna be another jutkewich" without even giving them a chance - because at such moment in time you have nothing but gut feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Finn - believe it or not football clubs have lawyers who are paid to protect the interests of the football club. If you have an employee contracted (for another 3 years) who has been paid to scout players and you are approached by another club for their services... are you trying to tell me that the parent club is not going to protect the information that they have gathered for your club? There is absolutely zero way that Leicester agreed to severe Walsh's contract for just £2m and they never had a clause that protected the players he had in depth knowledge on. These are Walsh's summer signings...... http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11712/10512501/leicester8217s-new-signings-the-stats-that-made-them-stand-out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 I think Moshiri should take a look at himself before blaming everyone else. You're trolling and a kopite. I absolutely guarantee you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 You're trolling and a kopite. I absolutely guarantee you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Because it doesn't look like the money was there until Stones was sold. It was still sell to buy. I guess you've never been around successful business people. Contrary to popular opinion, they do not splash around their money. If anything, they are even more tight with their money than us regular folks. What they excel at, however, is making money - often by spending money. We're seeing that already with the plans for the new stadium. We'll also see it with strategic buys. If my assessment is correct, Moshiri will spend carefully but wisely - and in a way that encourages long-term financial success. Frankly, I doubt he cares one whit about our opinions of the current transfer window. On the other hand, there are some sugar daddy owners, who spend a fortune, become a flash in the pan, and then disappear as their team founders on a rock of uncertainty and debt. That's something we really don't want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 I guess you've never been around successful business people. Contrary to popular opinion, they do not splash around their money. If anything, they are even more tight with their money than us regular folks. What they excel at, however, is making money - often by spending money. We're seeing that already with the plans for the new stadium. We'll also see it with strategic buys. If my assessment is correct, Moshiri will spend carefully but wisely - and in a way that encourages long-term financial success. Frankly, I doubt he cares one whit about our opinions of the current transfer window. On the other hand, there are some sugar daddy owners, who spend a fortune, become a flash in the pan, and then disappear as their team founders on a rock of uncertainty and debt. That's something we really don't want. I don't disagree that we shouldn't be throwing money away. A negative net spend in Moshiri's first window is poor whatever way you look at it to me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 I don't disagree that we shouldn't be throwing money away. A negative net spend in Moshiri's first window is poor whatever way you look at it to me though. Not really. We brought in some good solid players, and time will tell whether they are "diamonds in the rough." The biggest mistake of this window, IMO, was that the owners and executives set expectations. Much of business is about setting the right expectations. Love him or hate him, David Moyes set lower expectations and looked the hero when he beat them. Roberto Martinez set higher expectations and looked bad when he failed to match them. The current window falls into the latter category. Yes, we want to get the fans excited - but let's be a little more realistic with the expectations next time. Moshiri's focus right now, certainly more than demonstrating a net spend on transfers, has to be the new stadium. This will excite and bring in more revenue - e.g., by increasing seats and renting out for top band performances. If I was in his shoes, I'd also focus on strategy and marketing - at which we're abysmally poor. This could be done in many ways: make us "America's team" and recruit a couple of top US players with all the marketing revenue that could open up. Make us the "people's team" by opening up a bigger dialog with fans and locals and focusing on local players. Make us the "technology team" through the innovative use of technology in sport to win advertisers like Apple and Microsoft. We only need one strategy - but we don't have one right now. On negotiation, this is part of my daily job. The toughest group I've ever had to negotiate with was a company that outsourced to experts. I'd negotiate details of the solution, but pricing was delegated to this team. They knew exactly what they wanted, which made my life a little more difficult. I had to be careful to maintain leverage when negotiating the non-commercial aspects of a deal so as to put pressure on these guys when talking money - and I had to know when to walk away. It may sound strange, because no other team does it right now, but Everton could do worse than outsource commercial negotiations to a group like this. Let Walsh do what he knows best - identify player. Let the marketing team focus on strategy. And make the most out of every pound by negotiating smartly. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 To me it appears nearly every club who were selling took a ridiculous stance (bar us with Stones but that fee could turn out to be very good, he isn't the real deal yet), Bolassie isn't a £30m player but I understand why we bought him. We spent well with Williams even though £10m for a 32 year old must be a record. Gueye was a steal due to him having a release clause of £7m if villa were relegated. Look at what happened with Brahimi - fee agreed then they added another £10m.... £30m for Sissoko, £25m for wijnaldum?, Liverpool actually got £30m plus for Benteke, £15m for Jordan Ibe, £13m for Joe Allen?! Basically clubs tried it on and not everyone fell for it. The January window will be far more settled IMO. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 What do you mean property of Leicester City? You seriously think that just because he scouted players at Leicester he can't attempt to buy them for Everton? It might be intellectual property as you call it but the players are not leicesters. If you believe that then explain the purchase of gueye? At the end of the day we should have had our targets and then a plan b and c. We did what we always do. Half hearted efforts and were left with our dick in our hands. We had an opportunity to really kick on if we would have signed quality in the final third. Instead we have one out of form striker a loan player that West Ham couldn't get rid of quick enough and kone. It is just not good enough. It's called a non-compete clause in the US, and a Restraint of Trade clause in the UK. It's pretty common. Basically, you agree to not take agreed upon insider knowledge away from your employer to gain a competitive advantage over them. I would assume that this is the rule with scouting in the football business. I would also assume that it is time-limited and subject to negotiations between clubs when someone on staff leaves for another club. So, my assumption is that he was not to meddle in Leicester's transfer dealings for the summer window at the very least. It would be unfair to have used their resources to scout players and then take that information with him to bring those players to Everton. This is why these clauses exist. Cornish Steve, Hafnia, MikeO and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 It's called a non-compete clause in the US, and a Restraint of Trade clause in the UK. It's pretty common. Basically, you agree to not take agreed upon insider knowledge away from your employer to gain a competitive advantage over them. I would assume that this is the rule with scouting in the football business. I would also assume that it is time-limited and subject to negotiations between clubs when someone on staff leaves for another club. So, my assumption is that he was not to meddle in Leicester's transfer dealings for the summer window at the very least. It would be unfair to have used their resources to scout players and then take that information with him to bring those players to Everton. This is why these clauses exist. :jump for joy: for the life of me I can not fathom how people would this this wouldn't be the case. 3 of walshes signings for Leicester Vardy, Kante, Mahrez are worth £90m in revenue if all were sold - for an outlay of less than £6m I think.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 It's called a non-compete clause in the US, and a Restraint of Trade clause in the UK. It's pretty common. Basically, you agree to not take agreed upon insider knowledge away from your employer to gain a competitive advantage over them. I would assume that this is the rule with scouting in the football business. I would also assume that it is time-limited and subject to negotiations between clubs when someone on staff leaves for another club. So, my assumption is that he was not to meddle in Leicester's transfer dealings for the summer window at the very least. It would be unfair to have used their resources to scout players and then take that information with him to bring those players to Everton. This is why these clauses exist. They usually last for two years, but I'm guessing in this case it's until the January window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 :jump for joy: for the life of me I can not fathom how people would this this wouldn't be the case. 3 of walshes signings for Leicester Vardy, Kante, Mahrez are worth £90m in revenue if all were sold - for an outlay of less than £6m I think.... The clearest sign for me was us not being in for Slimani, who fit a need, fit the profile for the type of forward Walsh and Koeman like, and had similar attributes (but is of a higher caliber) to the other forwards we did pursue. Logically, all signs would've pointed to Everton being all over Slimani. But, we didn't even try to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Yes it does, all clubs will be doing the same thing. I am just arguing the point that those in charge of our negotiations had a bad window. Is that really in dispute? You are saying we never had other players lined up in case we missed out on our primary targets and that is clearly not the case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 They usually last for two years, but I'm guessing in this case it's until the January window. Right? That was my feeling as well. I'd assume the duration is shorter, because you can't expect somebody to leave for a new job, for you to be compensated, and for that person not to be able to do their job. But, leaving within a transfer window in which he had a major role in preparing the club's targets, and going to a direct competitor, there has to be something in place that curbs his ability to pilfer everything that he had done under the employ of Leicester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn balor Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 :jump for joy: for the life of me I can not fathom how people would this this wouldn't be the case. 3 of walshes signings for Leicester Vardy, Kante, Mahrez are worth £90m in revenue if all were sold - for an outlay of less than £6m I think.... Yes but just because somebody has looked for a player at his previous club how can that be legally binding? If Koeman sits down and says to Walsh I want you to try and sign joe blogs, Walsh turns around and says sorry Ronny I watched him on dvd for twenty minutes can't do it. Under that theory managers who leave their clubs never buy players from that club to follow him? I just don't believe that for a minute. At the end of the day walsh could have just resigned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Yes but just because somebody has looked for a player at his previous club how can that be legally binding? If Koeman sits down and says to Walsh I want you to try and sign joe blogs, Walsh turns around and says sorry Ronny I watched him on dvd for twenty minutes can't do it. Under that theory managers who leave their clubs never buy players from that club to follow him? I just don't believe that for a minute. At the end of the day walsh could have just resigned The difference is that Walsh was a scout. His job was about identifying targets in the market and researching them. And, the club was now into the transfer market, making his departure all the more meaningful. This is why he can't say, "Right, lads. Remember all the work you paid me for? I'll be taking that with me to Everton. Good luck trying to compete with us driving up the prices of all your targets, fuckers!" Maybe you're right. Maybe Walsh should've been a total twat to his former club, burnt all the bridges he could and maybe violated a contractual obligation. Maybe he should've publicly shit all over Leicester's ownership in the process. Don't you just hate to see this club operate respectably? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Yes but just because somebody has looked for a player at his previous club how can that be legally binding? If Koeman sits down and says to Walsh I want you to try and sign joe blogs, Walsh turns around and says sorry Ronny I watched him on dvd for twenty minutes can't do it. Under that theory managers who leave their clubs never buy players from that club to follow him? I just don't believe that for a minute. At the end of the day walsh could have just resigned Walsh is the talent scout not Koeman. Koeman agrees target with walsh. Scouting isnt done on a 20 minute dvd unless you buy per kroldrup. It involves travelling, accomodation, full match reports and every week the scouts submit reports... unless a club is happy to pay thousands of pounds to someone who blags it sat at home on youtube. "Before" walsh was released leicester will have secured exclusivity over targets selected and approved by walsh in his tenure. Walsh could not have resigned.... he was under contract. Everton had to buy him out of his contract... otherwise leicester would have taken him to court and sued him for the value of his deal. See adrian mutu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 My clause was 2 years when I moved companies but I imagine that in football it's less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Don't get to say this often...but if you sit back and read posts with an open mind and a kind of 'neutral' mindset, don't get involved in any tit for tat or back yourself into a corner...you get to read some real good, informative, balanced posts. Not often. But it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn balor Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Walsh is the talent scout not Koeman. Koeman agrees target with walsh. Scouting isnt done on a 20 minute dvd unless you buy per kroldrup. It involves travelling, accomodation, full match reports and every week the scouts submit reports... unless a club is happy to pay thousands of pounds to someone who blags it sat at home on youtube. "Before" walsh was released leicester will have secured exclusivity over targets selected and approved by walsh in his tenure. Walsh could not have resigned.... he was under contract. Everton had to buy him out of his contract... otherwise leicester would have taken him to court and sued him for the value of his deal. See adrian mutu. yes and at these matches there can be 10-15 scouts scouting the same player so how do Leicester know we haven't scouted the same player they were interested in? So Walsh gets to Everton and sees the list we have and guarantee a lot of the same players would be on it so we can't go for them because Leicester "intellectually own" them. I am just not having that for one second. Granted in other professions but there is no way that could be regulated. Walsh had four weeks to pick targets and get them over the line. People are posting like he had four hours, four weeks is a long time in football. He should have done a lot better than what we got in the last week. chicagoblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 yes and at these matches there can be 10-15 scouts scouting the same player so how do Leicester know we haven't scouted the same player they were interested in? So Walsh gets to Everton and sees the list we have and guarantee a lot of the same players would be on it so we can't go for them because Leicester "intellectually own" them. I am just not having that for one second. Granted in other professions but there is no way that could be regulated. Walsh had four weeks to pick targets and get them over the line. People are posting like he had four hours, four weeks is a long time in football. He should have done a lot better than what we got in the last week. It really doesn't matter whether Everton scouted the same players. The commercial agreement to 'buy' Walsh from Leicester will have included various safeguards to protect Leicester from poaching. There's simply no way Leicester would have agreed to a deal without such a provision. They will have also negotiated the duration of the non-compete clause, with it making sense to last until the end of this calendar year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn balor Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 I understand what your saying and I value your opinions and knowledge but I can't see how we'd be poaching players that they don't own. Granted they've watched them but so have loads of teams. They could have scouted fifty players or more. That's a massive restriction on Everton. I'm sure we had enough of our own scouts reports to have made signings anyway. The fact is we didn't. We were slow as usual and pandered to teams. Walsh should have ensured suitable players were brought in to cover a striker a midfielder and a third goalie koeman wanted. And I don't believe Valencia was anywhere near our radar till the last day and was a pure token signing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/frustrated-everton-fans-are-misunderstanding-process-building-a-successful-recruitment chicagoblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Don't get to say this often...but if you sit back and read posts with an open mind and a kind of 'neutral' mindset, don't get involved in any tit for tat or back yourself into a corner...you get to read some real good, informative, balanced posts. Not often. But it happens. Talking crap again Newts . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 Don't get to say this often...but if you sit back and read posts with an open mind and a kind of 'neutral' mindset, don't get involved in any tit for tat or back yourself into a corner...you get to read some real good, informative, balanced posts. Not often. But it happens. Nice one Newts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted September 5, 2016 Report Share Posted September 5, 2016 If I start slating Lukaku will my posts be 'credible'? Your posts won't be credible even if you champion Gana for signing of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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