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Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)


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15 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Doesn't show whether he's played someone into danger. Whether he choose the best option. Doesn't show the quality of delivery, the weight, what foot he's played it to or space he's put it in. How long he's spent on the ball, whether he'd be better off carrying it forward before making pass. How that pass effected the tempo of the game. 

There's a reason moneyball doesn't work on football. Far too many factors to consider. 

Google projection. I'm not your teacher and god bless whoever was. 

Unsubstantiated? Sure more false news from haf, carry on. You're worse than a tory with your posts. All with an agenda to try and prove you right. No actual debate just a crass 

Projections?  Here's how you make projections based on a formulaic approach.  Take a massive sample size of data.... let's say in this case "forum posts" in your case that's 10,000+.... that's a good sample size.

Remove "outliers"....  these are the extreme examples that can distort some analysis like a post that was liked by 200 people or a post disliked by 200 people.

 create some criteria to group the posts and trend them by days dates years etc.... maybe graph them.   You can identify patterns and from this make a projection. 

Funny how I knew all that. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

But he's not a play maker, he's not an attacking player, he's not a striker. He's a disruptor, a ball-winner, someone whose sole job is to win back possession and give it to someone, and he does this brilliantly. He does move it up the pitch well, but he's only ok at it, average. But, again, that's not his role. 

I don't understand why people hold it against players when they're really good at what they do but expect them to do more, often things that are not supposed to be done by their specialty. However he has tried to do these things with varying results. His crossing stats are shite for the record, but I don't hold that against him, it's not something a defensive central midfielder is supposed to be good at. If they are, it's a bonus.

Like you said, hopefully with Gomes alongside him, he can stop spreading his attention across multiple tasks and concentrate on what makes him an extremely good, not quite excellent, defensive, ball-winning midfielder.

I agree with you.  Part of my post was to ask you and pro-Gana posters to say a bit more about his additional strengths.  As pete0 and probably Palfy believe, he doesn’t really have many additional strengths.  We do have in recent posts in this thread a fair disagreement about what would constitute a strength or weakness in Gana’s passing proficiency.  I need to pay more attention to this issue in upcoming matches.

I’m not claiming he’s a lousy player except for his brilliant tackling, and it will be interesting to see if the pairing with Gomes will, as appears plausible, prove to make us happily forget the previous pairing with Schneiderlin.  (I’m holding my breath on the Gomes and Sigurdsson injuries, and so welcome this particular break.)

Now, as to your unexpected (to me) final phrase — “extremely good, not quite excellent, defensive, ball-winning midfielder.”  I suppose it might just be a matter of precise definitions, but I’d guess Gana-supporters would cite those tackling stats, and come pretty close to characterizing that as excellent defense/ball winning.  Though not convinced of his overall excellence, I have to assume that denying his “ball-winning” excellence must push us Gana-skeptics to show that ball-winning comes at a price.

Again, it’s a pretty good debate.  So long as Gomes and Sigurdsson are healthy shortly after the break — hope neither will have to miss more than one match — there will be substantial evidence on the pitch to assess Gana’s value.  We might be tempted by one particularly outstanding or one particulalry abysmal performance to settle our judgment(s).  But we need a string of matches to be more confident.  

Wonder whether McCarthy will be paired with Gana against Cardiff.  I see he’s not in the RoI team for their 2 international matches.  Surprises me.

2 hours ago, hafnia said:

Wasn't intended as shouting or sarcasm to be honest. Maybe the fact I'm covered in chicken pox ....  Soz Elstone

I learned a new word!  “Soz.”   Chicken pox, whoa.  On behalf of TT, Soz hafnia.  (I bet that’s not an appropriate use of the word, which connotes apology rather than condolence.)

Love these examples of Soz as “not just a word, but a way of life.”

Person 1: “Hey dude, I had sex with your girlfriend, soz.”

Person 2: “Don’t wory about it.”

 

Person 1: “Hey I ran over your dog with my car, soz man.”

Person 2: “It’s alright, I’ll get another one.”

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18 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

I agree with you.  Part of my post was to ask you and pro-Gana posters to say a bit more about his additional strengths.  As pete0 and probably Palfy believe, he doesn’t really have many additional strengths.  We do have in recent posts in this thread a fair disagreement about what would constitute a strength or weakness in Gana’s passing proficiency.  I need to pay more attention to this issue in upcoming matches.

I’m not claiming he’s a lousy player except for his brilliant tackling, and it will be interesting to see if the pairing with Gomes will, as appears plausible, prove to make us happily forget the previous pairing with Schneiderlin.  (I’m holding my breath on the Gomes and Sigurdsson injuries, and so welcome this particular break.)

Now, as to your unexpected (to me) final phrase — “extremely good, not quite excellent, defensive, ball-winning midfielder.”  I suppose it might just be a matter of precise definitions, but I’d guess Gana-supporters would cite those tackling stats, and come pretty close to characterizing that as excellent defense/ball winning.  Though not convinced of his overall excellence, I have to assume that denying his “ball-winning” excellence must push us Gana-skeptics to show that ball-winning comes at a price.

Again, it’s a pretty good debate.  So long as Gomes and Sigurdsson are healthy shortly after the break — hope neither will have to miss more than one match — there will be substantial evidence on the pitch to assess Gana’s value.  We might be tempted by one particularly outstanding or one particulalry abysmal performance to settle our judgment(s).  But we need a string of matches to be more confident.  

Wonder whether McCarthy will be paired with Gana against Cardiff.  I see he’s not in the RoI team for their 2 international matches.  Surprises me.

Wasn't meaning to imply you were calling him lousy mate, it was a general statement regarding  people expecting players to do more than what their role entails. I want my keeper to save shots, I want my defenders to be able to track and tackle, I want my defensive midfielders to give the defence breathing room and close down the opposition, I want my wingers and attacking midfielders to make runs, dribble and cross and I want my striker to score. If all of them excel at what they do together, then the team works. If players are asked to do things that they're not good at and it comes at the expense of limiting what they are good at, it's completely counter-productive in my opinion. 

I say not excellent because, although I see him continuing to improve, he isn'tt perfect. He does have brain farts, and although he makes up for them more often than not by either winning the ball back or at least putting the effort in to make up for his mistake, excellence would mean that he doesn't have to. Not that I expect him to be flawless, but continuing to improve on minimizing his mistakes so that he doesn't have to make up for them will take him to the next level. These mistakes just don't happen anywhere near as often as Pete says; they are the exception rather than the rule. I just want the exceptions to occur even less before I brand him an excellent player, but he is close in my eyes, not even looking at the stats.

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strengths

 

tackling

interceptions

pressing

passing completion (look at the stats)

fouling (he's not afraid to take one for the team)

humble (goes about his work quietly, model professional)

ground covered during a match

fitness levels

 

weakness

 

doesn't score enough goals

can't play keeper to save his life (BIG MISS HERE)

although fast, he's no usain bolt

can't fill in at either fullback position like mccarthy does

isn'tt a centreback

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1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

strengths

 

tackling

interceptions

pressing

passing completion (look at the stats)

fouling (he's not afraid to take one for the team)

humble (goes about his work quietly, model professional)

ground covered during a match

fitness levels

 

weakness

 

doesn't score enough goals

can't play keeper to save his life (BIG MISS HERE)

although fast, he's no usain bolt

can't fill in at either fullback position like mccarthy does

isn'ttt a centreback

Strengths:

Always seems to be in Everton gear, pictured at a petrol station - Everton gear. Picture uploaded to instagram of him in his kitchen? Everton gear. Im not convinced he owns any other clothing items except for ones with the Everton badge on...

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1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

strengths

 

tackling

interceptions

pressing

passing completion (look at the stats)

fouling (he's not afraid to take one for the team)

humble (goes about his work quietly, model professional)

ground covered during a match

fitness levels

 

weakness

 

doesn't score enough goals

can't play keeper to save his life (BIG MISS HERE)

although fast, he's no usain bolt

can't fill in at either fullback position like mccarthy does

isn'ttt a centreback

Based on the contents of this thread, I honestly completely missed the sarcasm in that post and thought the weaknesses were genuine points for a minute :lol: 

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3 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

Unsubstantiated? Sure more false news from haf, carry on. You're worse than a tory with your posts. All with an agenda to try and prove you right. No actual debate just a crass loudmouth. 

His points were actually factual. They actually happened. 

It would be better if you responded with facts of your own. 

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Elston, would it be fair to ask people to show his faults at the same time? For example, saying his passing is awful and counterproductive to me... is t actually factual at all, it’s just opinion. 

Haf pointed our a tackle on Hazard ( you remember him, some people say he is the best player in earth at the moment ), and that to me is factual.

if I said he received the ball on the edge of the area, feinted inside and smacked a rocket into the post, that is factual. Saying he is awful at shooting is opinion not fact.

This is where many get annoyed at this thread. PeteO is vehement in his views, some others only show up if he makes a mistake, no matter how minor. Yet read the match thread against Brighton... I even quipped I was hanging my name to PShukes... as he was awful first half. 

Now imagaine if Palfy or PeteO turned around and said, you know what, he surprised me Sunday, he was excellent... still don’t like him, but have to give him credit.

Its balances that way. It creates a good debate. 

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

His points were actually factual. They actually happened. 

It would be better if you responded with facts of your own. 

Please expand on all the unsubstantiated shite that Haf refers to. How's that a fact? 

As for Gana list all the things he done last week that was more than expected of any player. Like I said Gomes had the same defensive stats but was instrumental in our play. Why is Gana only expected to do half a job? 

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1 hour ago, Paddock said:

The most comical thing to me is Pete and Palfy bang on about how all these players are better yet don’t watch them week in week out- 10 minute highlights on MOTD or the odd game on Sky yet they are superior to Gana who they watch every week.

Very strange thing to think.

I go every week, although I did give the African game a miss. It's watching him off screen that really highlights how subpar he is because his movement is shocking. Last season was a burden going to Goodison and seeing his name on the teamsheet. Look at the chances we gave away through the middle. Not a team in my lifetime has been cut open so often so easily through the middle. 

Also stop being I go the match snob. Thought you were better than that. 

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3 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I go every week, although I did give the African game a miss. It's watching him off screen that really highlights how subpar he is because his movement is shocking. Last season was a burden going to Goodison and seeing his name on the teamsheet. Look at the chances we gave away through the middle. Not a team in my lifetime has been cut open so often so easily through the middle. 

Also stop being I go the match snob. Thought you were better than that. 

he was saying you don't watch the OTHER players matches every week ie. Kante.  How can you say Kante is better when you just watch highlights?  That's Pads point.

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11 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

he was saying you don't watch the OTHER players matches every week ie. Kante.  How can you say Kante is better when you just watch highlights?  That's Pads point.

Happens all the time to be fair, but it’s still a valid point. 

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12 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Please expand on all the unsubstantiated shite that Haf refers to. How's that a fact? 

As for Gana list all the things he done last week that was more than expected of any player. Like I said Gomes had the same defensive stats but was instrumental in our play. Why is Gana only expected to do half a job? 

I've asked you to quote examples of such "stuff" but you won't. I'm still waiting for:-

1. You to explain the Strawman fallacy and how that applies to me. Without using wizard of oz as a jovial way of avoiding it.

2.  Explain why I'm a liar

3. Why I'm Mr Projection

4. Why I'm Mr Trump

5. And if Gana is still the worst ever Everton player or are you big enough to admit you over exaggerated. 

 

Ta

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1 hour ago, Paddock said:

The most comical thing to me is Pete and Palfy bang on about how all these players are better yet don’t watch them week in week out- 10 minute highlights on MOTD or the odd game on Sky yet they are superior to Gana who they watch every week.

Very strange thing to think.

Who have I been banging on about that’s better name me one player from any other club that I’ve been banging on about that’s better ?

 

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Elston, would it be fair to ask people to show his faults at the same time? For example, saying his passing is awful and counterproductive to me... is t actually factual at all, it’s just opinion. 

Haf pointed our a tackle on Hazard ( you remember him, some people say he is the best player in earth at the moment ), and that to me is factual.

if I said he received the ball on the edge of the area, feinted inside and smacked a rocket into the post, that is factual. Saying he is awful at shooting is opinion not fact.

It balances that way. It creates a good debate. 

Yes, definitely fair.  Concrete examples help me.  I mentioned way back upthread how surprised I was when that rocket shot hit the post.  Now, fair’s fair, surely almost no one on TT thinks Everton can count on Gana to score .  None of us expect that; it’s a big bonus when it happens.  So I do think the claim that he is awful at shooting is closer to fact than to opinion.

Another example, and much more important if it’s fairly typical of Gana.  Responding to what he thought an inaccurate generalization on my part, MikeO provided several match-examples to contradict my generalization.

I’ll repeat that the next 5 matches — 3 mediocre opponents at Goodison, 2 very difficult away matches - should provide plenty of plays to, um, “debate.”  I will guess that Gana’s critics will provide (or claim to, if you prefer) some concrete examples if this debate rages on.  I want to think that my skepticism re Gana was substantially a function of the mismatched Schneiderlin pairing.  So far,  the insertion of Gomes looks very promising.  I suspect that maybe all on TT agree that Gana and Gomes may — by Silva’s design and by learning on the pitch each other’s most effective role — have a chance to control the midfield against all but the top 6.

We probably won’t get a good next test if Gomes is out v. Cardiff.  Maybe not if Sigurdsson is out, either.  I still want to see McCarthy.  Silva cannot count on Gomes and Gana to be injury-free all season.  Happy McCarthy’s not in the RoI squad this weekend.

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1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

he was saying you don't watch the OTHER players matches every week ie. Kante.  How can you say Kante is better when you just watch highlights?  That's Pads point.

I've watched Scott Gemmill every week before and even he was better. I've watched enough of Kante and the other players I named better than him previously. 

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52 minutes ago, hafnia said:

I've asked you to quote examples of such "stuff" but you won't. I'm still waiting for:-

1. You to explain the Strawman fallacy and how that applies to me. Without using wizard of oz as a jovial way of avoiding it.

2.  Explain why I'm a liar

3. Why I'm Mr Projection

4. Why I'm Mr Trump

5. And if Gana is still the worst ever Everton player or are you big enough to admit you over exaggerated. 

 

Ta

You're either thick or pathetic. I'm guessing the latter and you're playing a game to make me waste my time as if that some how makes you a winner. All have been answered previously. 

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37 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

pete you have said multiple times Kante has better passing and goal scoring to his game, he is the guy you compare.  Gana outplayed him on sunday.

I've don't think I've ever mentioned Kante's goal scoring, possibly not has passing either. They both never scored last week so I don't see your point. 

Kante was instrumental to Leicester and Chelsea winning the league. Gana to Villa going down and Everton having the worst football to watch in my lifetime. 

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52 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

 

Yes, definitely fair.  Concrete examples help me.  I mentioned way back upthread how surprised I was when that rocket shot hit the post.  Now, fair’s fair, surely almost no one on TT thinks Everton can count on Gana to score .  None of us expect that; it’s a big bonus when it happens.  So I do think the claim that he is awful at shooting is closer to fact than to opinion.

Another example, and much more important if it’s fairly typical of Gana.  Responding to what he thought an inaccurate generalization on my part, MikeO provided several match-examples to contradict my generalization.

I’ll repeat that the next 5 matches — 3 mediocre opponents at Goodison, 2 very difficult away matches - should provide plenty of plays to, um, “debate.”  I will guess that Gana’s critics will provide (or claim to, if you prefer) some concrete examples if this debate rages on.  I want to think that my skepticism re Gana was substantially a function of the mismatched Schneiderlin pairing.  So far,  the insertion of Gomes looks very promising.  I suspect that maybe all on TT agree that Gana and Gomes may — by Silva’s design and by learning on the pitch each other’s most effective role — have a chance to control the midfield against all but the top 6.

We probably won’t get a good next test if Gomes is out v. Cardiff.  Maybe not if Sigurdsson is out, either.  I still want to see McCarthy.  Silva cannot count on Gomes and Gana to be injury-free all season.  Happy McCarthy’s not in the RoI squad this weekend.

When I get to my computer I’ll give a more in-depth response. But to the point on him scoring - I don’t expect him to because I don’t expect him to be in that area as he should be watching the back door. However, when he shoots I actually have hope and don’t think “oh not again” as I’ve felt with other, more attack minded players. Less opportunity does not equal bad at something. That said, his hits on target are 1 in 5 so not great, but not bad for someone who’s supposed to be defensive 

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7 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I've don't think I've ever mentioned Kante's goal scoring, possibly not has passing either. They both never scored last week so I don't see your point. 

Kante was instrumental to Leicester and Chelsea winning the league. Gana to Villa going down and Everton having the worst football to watch in my lifetime. 

You know that villa went down and we played shit football because of the manager right? 

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13 minutes ago, pete0 said:

You can blame the manager for picking him but you can't blame him got Gana giving away chances and having a negative effect on the forward play. 

So you can blame the manager for making the “mistake”’of putting him on the field, but it’s Ganas fault for shite football and a relegation?

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

I go every week, although I did give the African game a miss. It's watching him off screen that really highlights how subpar he is because his movement is shocking. Last season was a burden going to Goodison and seeing his name on the teamsheet. Look at the chances we gave away through the middle. Not a team in my lifetime has been cut open so often so easily through the middle. 

Also stop being I go the match snob. Thought you were better than that. 

I’m

talking about you NOT watching all the other players regularly that you say are better- absolutely nothing to do with not going the match- you don’t watch all the players you claim are better even remotely regularly do I suggest you read my post again.

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I thought he did OK at the weekend but he still let Hazard run behind him to get to the byline inside the area because he was ball watching and then in another example he again got caught out by good movement with a little bit of ball watching and instead of moving across to Hazard he shifted himself the other way to try and intercept a ball that was never played (mainly as there was no-one there) allowing Hazard even more space to carry the ball forward and unleash a shot which Pickford had to save. In fairness to him he almost got back into position.

He also got very lucky on the edge of the box when he tried to turn and got tackled turning the ball over however the ref blew for a foul which wasnt. 

He has been fantastic in recent weeks but these are where he lets himself down. They didnt result in goals this time but they do over the course of the season. He has improved loads in his positioning under Silva though, similar to Keane. It just shows how good of a manager he is IMO.

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Who have I been banging on about that’s better name me one player from any other club that I’ve been banging on about that’s better ?

 

Ok then- tell me who we should get that is better than bag of shite Gane- in the prem, name me a centre mid in the Gana role who is better. I’ll wIt patiently. One you watch week in week out like you do Gana so know absolutely that he doesn’t make as many mistakes or is a better passer etc etc etcettterrrraaaa

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