Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[pete0]

Unlucky to concede the pen as he got the ball. However stupid to put his foot in at that moment and give the ref the opportunity. Should have sorted out earlier or shadowed him away from goal. The latter applies to Smalling as well, but that was a stonewall penalty. 

[Paddock]

Never ever ever was that a fucking pen. Moss is a fucking sloppy piece of shite of a rdf. Absolute diabolical decision. We weren’t good enough anyway as it happens but never a pen.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

Never in a million years was that a pen

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Unlucky to concede the pen as he got the ball. However stupid to put his foot in at that moment and give the ref the opportunity. Should have sorted out earlier or shadowed him away from goal. The latter applies to Smalling as well, but that was a stonewall penalty. 

Fair play. 

[Bailey]

5 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I thought it was a definite penalty and had no argument with it tbh.

I can see the argument both ways. Still not sure if it should or shouldnt have been given. 

Either way his decisions to get him into the box and to even make the tackle were just pure Gana.  

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

Never in a million years was that a pen

No it wasn’t a pen but he’s come in from the side and just got his foot in the ref sees it as a pen which most people in real time thought it wasn’t till the replay and still some do. 

Unfortunately he’s prone to trying to make tackles with the wrong foot or while on wrong side, against the lesser teams he gets away with it but against the better teams he’s not in the game and his positioning and running looks more headless and his tackles become more desperate lunges. 

I didn’t see the game but from the posts I was reading during the game I could tell he was being out classed by better players, but the next game against Brighton he will look better because there poorer, and against say the shite and Spurs there be more shouts of get him off before he’s sent off. 

[Matt]

9 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

Never in a million years was that a pen

That is the definition of a well timed tackle

[Shukes]

We’re debating this because again we’re trying to pick faults. But the camera doesn’t lie, he made a perfect tackle and was cheated out of it by a clear dive.

The fault lies on the officials shoulders, not the players. As for him being in that position on the first place.... who was he covering? Shouldnt they be to blame?

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Shukes said:

We’re debating this because again we’re trying to pick faults. But the camera doesn’t lie, he made a perfect tackle and was cheated out of it by a clear dive.

The fault lies on the officials shoulders, not the players. As for him being in that position on the first place.... who was he covering? Shouldnt they be to blame?

Yes to a degree you would ask what happened to the defence not very good by all accounts, but you could also argue everyone has a part to play when defending, rather than look for individuals to blame they need to do more work on the training field with coaches explaining what is required and what will not be excepted, and if you don’t learn your gone simples 

[Shukes]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

Yes to a degree you would ask what happened to the defence not very good by all accounts, but you could also argue everyone has a part to play when defending, rather than look for individuals to blame they need to do more work on the training field with coaches explaining what is required and what will not be excepted, and if you don’t learn your gone simples 

I agree, I just don’t rhibk this applies to this situation at all does it?

Didnt Gana get back to help his defence? Didn’t he push Martial onto the outside to make a steeper angle, just like coaches teach you? Didn’t he stay on his feet in the penalty area and nick the ball of the strikers foot perfectly?

This is my issue. He did everything right, but the official made a mistake.... an easy one to make as PeteO rightly pointed out, but a mistake nonetheless. And here we are again debating what Gana did wrong!

[nogs]

20 hours ago, Shukes said:

I agree, I just don’t rhibk this applies to this situation at all does it?

Didnt Gana get back to help his defence? Didn’t he push Martial onto the outside to make a steeper angle, just like coaches teach you? Didn’t he stay on his feet in the penalty area and nick the ball of the strikers foot perfectly?

This is my issue. He did everything right, but the official made a mistake.... an easy one to make as PeteO rightly pointed out, but a mistake nonetheless. And here we are again debating what Gana did wrong!

This 200%. If Gana hadn't put his foot in and Martial had danced through and scored, he'd be getting torn apart on this thread. So the lad can't win coz to some people his face doesn't fit, he absolutely did his job, made a great tackle to avert a goalscoring opportunity, and got screwed over by a shit refereeing decision. End of. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

This 200%. If Gana hadn't put his foot in and Martial had danced through and scored, he'd be getting torn apart on this thread. So the lad can't win coz to some people his face doesn't fit, he absolutely did his job, made a great tackle to avert a goalscoring opportunity, and got screwed over by a shit refereeing decision. End of. 

I’m a big fan of his really, but I think he should have just kept showing him down the line. Wasn’t a penalty as he won the ball, but didn’t need to make the challenge. 

[nogs]

4 minutes ago, StevO said:

I’m a big fan of his really, but I think he should have just kept showing him down the line. Wasn’t a penalty as he won the ball, but didn’t need to make the challenge. 

I honestly don't get that argument Steve. Winning the ball justifies the challenge. 

Compare it to trying to make an incisive 30 yard through ball to put the striker through on goal. If the defender intercepts it, you can say well maybe he should have played a simpler pass and kept possession. But as soon as that ball reaches its target, its a great bit of play and the right decision. That's how I see making challenges in the box - it's the right decision if you can and do win the ball fairly, which Gana did. 

[StevO]

7 hours ago, nogs said:

I honestly don't get that argument Steve. Winning the ball justifies the challenge. 

Compare it to trying to make an incisive 30 yard through ball to put the striker through on goal. If the defender intercepts it, you can say well maybe he should have played a simpler pass and kept possession. But as soon as that ball reaches its target, its a great bit of play and the right decision. That's how I see making challenges in the box - it's the right decision if you can and do win the ball fairly, which Gana did. 

I get what you mean mate, and he did win the ball fairly, but in this day and age we know the forward will go down. They all do it. The refs fall for it every week. For me if the forward is running towards the byline, with his weaker foot facing the goal then show him out of play. The minute you make that challenge it’s 50/50 wether it’s a penalty, just don’t give the ref that decision to make. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I get what you mean mate, and he did win the ball fairly, but in this day and age we know the forward will go down. They all do it. The refs fall for it every week. For me if the forward is running towards the byline, with his weaker foot facing the goal then show him out of play. The minute you make that challenge it’s 50/50 wether it’s a penalty, just don’t give the ref that decision to make. 

So depressing that (but true). Make a perfect, well timed, perfectly judged tackle; watch the striker plainly fling himself to the floor after being tickled after said perfect tackle is made and it's 50/50. So wrong.

[Hafnia]

Football is gonna end up the same as basketball the way it's going. 

The game is ready for VAR big time. It will put a stop to players cheating if they have so.ething to lose..

[StevO]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

So depressing that (but true). Make a perfect, well timed, perfectly judged tackle; watch the striker plainly fling himself to the floor after being tickled after said perfect tackle is made and it's 50/50. So wrong.

It is Mike, this is why VAR needs to be sorted out. I would hope that once they do sort it the video ref just says “won the ball” and it’s done. Followed by a review of the dive and punished as required. 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, hafnia said:

Football is gonna end up the same as basketball the way it's going. 

The game is ready for VAR big time. It will put a stop to players cheating if they have so.ething to lose..

100%

i watched quite a bit of NBA on tv in the last few weeks in the states, was intrigued by the whole LeBron hype. They had way more contact than we have in football now. Their players run into the opposition, still get their shot off (and the points if they bag) and get the penalty to boot! Madness! Then football is an actual contact sport and can’t touch anyone. 

[markjazzbassist]

for all the VAR enthusiasts just watch american sports they have it called video replay and the refs still get it wrong all the time.  my dad was just moaning the other day he wishes he had it like soccer, just make the call and the players live with it no replay, error is just considered part of the game.  hurts 10 times worse when they still get it wrong and reviewed it for 5 minutes.

[Sibdane]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

for all the VAR enthusiasts just watch american sports they have it called video replay and the refs still get it wrong all the time.  my dad was just moaning the other day he wishes he had it like soccer, just make the call and the players live with it no replay, error is just considered part of the game.  hurts 10 times worse when they still get it wrong and reviewed it for 5 minutes.

They get it right way more often then they get it wrong though. 

[markjazzbassist]

24 minutes ago, sibdane said:

They get it right way more often then they get it wrong though. 

the browns have lost  games this year due to bad calls.  all 3 were called wrong even though they had extensive replays.   the NFL admitted the refs got them wrong and fired one of the refs.  2 of those calls made them lose the game.  that's why i'm against VAR. 

[Sibdane]

8 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

the browns have lost  games this year due to bad calls.  all 3 were called wrong even though they had extensive replays.   the NFL admitted the refs got them wrong and fired one of the refs.  2 of those calls made them lose the game.  that's why i'm against VAR. 

And I don't disagree they get them wrong from time-to-time. Just saying they get it right more often than not. 

[Matt]

12 hours ago, StevO said:

I get what you mean mate, and he did win the ball fairly, but in this day and age we know the forward will go down. They all do it. The refs fall for it every week. For me if the forward is running towards the byline, with his weaker foot facing the goal then show him out of play. The minute you make that challenge it’s 50/50 wether it’s a penalty, just don’t give the ref that decision to make. 

You shouldn’t not do your job, and do it well, just because the officials continue to fail at doing their job. If you accommodate poor work, you encourage it

[pete0]

55 minutes ago, Matt said:

You shouldn’t not do your job, and do it well, just because the officials continue to fail at doing their job. If you accommodate poor work, you encourage it

Like StevO said, once Martial was in the box Gana's job was to show him down the line keeping him on his left foot. That tackle even if it never resulted in a pen would have got Gana a ticking off from the health and safety manager for being too high risk. 

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Like StevO said, once Martial was in the box Gana's job was to show him down the line keeping him on his left foot. That tackle even if it never resulted in a pen would have got Gana a ticking off from the health and safety manager for being too high risk. 

The tackle was made with the wrong foot, I'll grant you that. But he still won the ball and I'm not convinced if he'd made it with the other foot that Martial wouldn't have gone down anyway. The fault lies squarely on the officials for that decision, and I can't criticise Gana for using the wrong foot because he won the ball!

[pete0]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

The tackle was made with the wrong foot, I'll grant you that. But he still won the ball and I'm not convinced if he'd made it with the other foot that Martial wouldn't have gone down anyway. The fault lies squarely on the officials for that decision, and I can't criticise Gana for using the wrong foot because he won the ball!

If you use the other foot you can see clear daylight (and possibly get more of a change in direction of the ball) whereas going wrong footed you're gonna be taking the ball and the man roughly at the same time and give the ref a 50/50 decision to make. And in a 50/50 situation as wrong as it is I think every referee would give that as a pen in favour of a top 6 team. 

He's won the ball though so it's tough luck. But I'd be very surprised if the coaching staff don't have a word in his ear. 

[Bailey]

13 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

for all the VAR enthusiasts just watch american sports they have it called video replay and the refs still get it wrong all the time.  my dad was just moaning the other day he wishes he had it like soccer, just make the call and the players live with it no replay, error is just considered part of the game.  hurts 10 times worse when they still get it wrong and reviewed it for 5 minutes.

I agree. Just look at the World Cup. Lots of poor VAR decisions.

I would also question whether this tackle would have been overturned. Ball still in play and the clear contact from Gana would have been deemed sufficiemt for Martial's swan dive.

[Shukes]

Guys... most commentin here haven’t played the game, only watched. 

Any player knows you dont set out to make a tackle and just go through with it, it often results in a penalty and sending off.You go with the man, show him the line, and if the opportunity comes... on either foot... you push the ball away. You take the opportunity when it arises. 

If not,  you usually end up letting the player get to the line and cut it back, which often results in a goal.

Gana played it as he should have. 

The day we stop tackling just in case the ref makes a mistake is the day that any slight touch becomes a foul. The correct thing to do is play the game as it should be, and make the refs learn from it. Make them responsible.

[Bailey]

50 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Guys... most commentin here haven’t played the game, only watched. 

Any player knows you dont set out to make a tackle and just go through with it, it often results in a penalty and sending off.You go with the man, show him the line, and if the opportunity comes... on either foot... you push the ball away. You take the opportunity when it arises. 

If not,  you usually end up letting the player get to the line and cut it back, which often results in a goal.

Gana played it as he should have. 

The day we stop tackling just in case the ref makes a mistake is the day that any slight touch becomes a foul. The correct thing to do is play the game as it should be, and make the refs learn from it. Make them responsible.

I would largely expect all high level coaching to recommend ushering the player out of play rather than making a tackle unless you can do so cleanly. I would also expect most coaches to suggest the defender tackles the player before they get into the box rather than wait until they are inside it and heading to the byline.

Defending a space is an equally good skill as making a tackle IMO. That might be because I am too slow to tackle and am much better at gettig my fat arse in the way .

Interestingly I am just looking at the laws of the game and it makes no reference to winning the ball. Weirdly it talks about "attempting" to kick, trip an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force. Careless is then defined as the player has shown a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or that he acted without precaution. As he wasnt cautioned it must have been defined as careless by the ref. 

Knowing Gana there was definitely a lack of attention and I doubt he considered what he was doing either!

[Bailey]

Furthermore... Mike Dean on the Beeb

 

4 types of challenge. The two that involve this incident are a "correct tackle" wins the ball fairly and no impact on the opponent. 

The other type is listed as careless where "the player makes a legitimate attempt to win the ball attempt but either in their timing or the skill of the opponent, they foul the other player".

Food for thought but to me that means almost all tackles could be considered as fouls.