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duncanmckenzieismagic

Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Stats say he was in the top five in Europe for chances created? Errrr... not sure what else to say to be honest haha. 

No your right, that’s shit, sell him... actually, no, give him away, or swap him for a yellow grapefruit! 

Premier league stats show he never made any that should have been scored. 

44 minutes ago, Matt said:

Yes. Yes he does. DCM is his role. 

Hed have to tackle half as much of the others actually kept position and possession. That’s their job not his. 

So what was Schneiderlin, Gomes and Barry's roles? Must be the only team in the league who play with two DMs. 

Silva even said after the Cardiff game Gana needs to create more. 

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Well most of the games I saw him play in last season he was given the most freedom to get forward whether his partner was Gomes or Schneiderlin, even Silva was praising him for his new role of being more forward thinking but that’s not to say he didn’t have a role to play defensively because he did. 

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34 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Premier league stats show he never made any that should have been scored. 

So what was Schneiderlin, Gomes and Barry's roles? Must be the only team in the league who play with two DMs. 

Silva even said after the Cardiff game Gana needs to create more. 

Posts like that show you have no comprehension for the game or facts

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26 minutes ago, Matt said:

Silva even said after the Cardiff game Gana needs to create more

That was the game where I thought we may have something going on here, but he failed to replicate that ability to the same level in the rest of the games that season, all though occasionally he did show some glimpses, I also preferred him to be more forward of his midfield partner because when he had his one or two brain farts each game we had someone behind him to help mop it up which proved a lot less dangerous than when he was the last mid. 

But your right about Silva and the Cardiff game he did praise Gana about his more advanced role, like it was a new Gana we were seeing in a different role. 

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Looking at Twitter we are rumoured with a couple of French midfielders - one named sangare 

Wonder why PSG want gana? Surely they have highly knowledgeable scouts who could see what Peteo sees..... that's unless what Peteo sees is a load of nonsense? 

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9 hours ago, Palfy said:

That was the game where I thought we may have something going on here, but he failed to replicate that ability to the same level in the rest of the games that season, all though occasionally he did show some glimpses, I also preferred him to be more forward of his midfield partner because when he had his one or two brain farts each game we had someone behind him to help mop it up which proved a lot less dangerous than when he was the last mid. 

But your right about Silva and the Cardiff game he did praise Gana about his more advanced role, like it was a new Gana we were seeing in a different role. 

How did the quote say I said that then it was Pete?!

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9 hours ago, StevO said:

Barry and Schneidelin, yes, both DMs. We played with Barry and McCarthy for long enough, again, both DMs. 

But Gomes isn’t. He sits further back on the pitch, but his role is not a defensive one. It’s a creative one. Haha often sits higher up, but that’s to press at the front as pressing is his strength and Marco wants that to be higher up the pitch. Gomes is more useful on the ball with players in front of him. One is creative and one is defensive, it’s just where Marco wants them to use their skills. It’s not like the old days where Carsley used to sit behind the midfield to clean up, it’s a much more proactive defensive tactic. But if Gana wins the ball back high up he then has to move the ball on to someone else, as that will often require a different skill set. Sometimes he tries things and it works, other times it doesn’t, but his role is just to get that ball back and give it to people like Gomes and Gylfi to do something a bit more creative with it.

Surely I'm not the only one who sees it this way?

Exactly. Playing DCM doesn’t mean sitting in front of the defence any more. With a high press, the defensive part of a DCM is much higher up. Just like a playmaker doesn’t have to be behind the striker like Gomes. 

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34 minutes ago, Matt said:

How did the quote say I said that then it was Pete?!

Yeah sorry Matt I saw Petes quote in your reply and copied from that, send further responses to confused.com where I will endeavour to answer your queries 😜

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Don’t know why I’m getting dragged into this again haha. 

Can we rename this thread? I was thinking “for the non thinking Evertonian”

Because you love it 😍 

And if it was renamed the non thinking Evertonian I’m sure you would feel right at home 🙄

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Exactly. Playing DCM doesn’t mean sitting in front of the defence any more. With a high press, the defensive part of a DCM is much higher up. Just like a playmaker doesn’t have to be behind the striker like Gomes. 

Only have to see the England game the other night to see the benefit of the high press. 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Because you love it 😍 

And if it was renamed the non thinking Evertonian I’m sure you would feel right at home 🙄

Would be boring though mate. Only be me, you and PeteO with the occasional guest appearance from Bailey haha

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23 hours ago, StevO said:

Barry and Schneidelin, yes, both DMs. We played with Barry and McCarthy for long enough, again, both DMs. 

But Gomes isn’t. He sits further back on the pitch, but his role is not a defensive one. It’s a creative one. Haha often sits higher up, but that’s to press at the front as pressing is his strength and Marco wants that to be higher up the pitch. Gomes is more useful on the ball with players in front of him. One is creative and one is defensive, it’s just where Marco wants them to use their skills. It’s not like the old days where Carsley used to sit behind the midfield to clean up, it’s a much more proactive defensive tactic. But if Gana wins the ball back high up he then has to move the ball on to someone else, as that will often require a different skill set. Sometimes he tries things and it works, other times it doesn’t, but his role is just to get that ball back and give it to people like Gomes and Gylfi to do something a bit more creative with it.

Surely I'm not the only one who sees it this way?

McCarthy played as the centre mid. Box to box. Ran all over the pitch but with more purpose than Gana. 

His job is not only to win the ball. That's only half a role. The midfielders should be passing the ball with purpose which Gana does not. He stifles play and his shooting is laughable. Teams leave him unmarked as they know he won't score and he won't create. 

14 hours ago, hafnia said:

Looking at Twitter we are rumoured with a couple of French midfielders - one named sangare 

Wonder why PSG want gana? Surely they have highly knowledgeable scouts who could see what Peteo sees..... that's unless what Peteo sees is a load of nonsense? 

That same PSG that bought David Luiz for a record fee. 

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Teams leave him unmarked as they know he won’t create and won’t score? 😂😂 the amount of science and stats that you are so willing to put forward and then you say teams will just leave a player unmarked and don’t track him because it’s gana and he’s so shit 🤦🏿‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

Teams leave him unmarked as they know he won’t create and won’t score? 😂😂 the amount of science and stats that you are so willing to put forward and then you say teams will just leave a player unmarked and don’t track him because it’s gana and he’s so shit 🤦🏿‍♂️

I've pointed it out during the game before. 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

McCarthy played as the centre mid. Box to box. Ran all over the pitch but with more purpose than Gana. 

Then how do you account for Barry covering for Baines when he went forward and McCarthy covering for Coleman when he did the same?

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56 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I've pointed it out during the game before. 

You can point it out in every game, I could point out that Jessica Alba has a spot on her chin. Doesn’t mean she’s not hot as fuck. 

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19 minutes ago, StevO said:

Then how do you account for Barry covering for Baines when he went forward and McCarthy covering for Coleman when he did the same?

Barry sat more often and McCarthy got forward making runs and linking up play with more purpose and at a much faster pace than Gana. 

15 minutes ago, StevO said:

You can point it out in every game, I could point out that Jessica Alba has a spot on her chin. Doesn’t mean she’s not hot as fuck. 

If you find pointless tackling hot, whatever floats your boat. 

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10 hours ago, pete0 said:

McCarthy played as the centre mid. Box to box. Ran all over the pitch but with more purpose than Gana. 

His job is not only to win the ball. That's only half a role. The midfielders should be passing the ball with purpose which Gana does not. He stifles play and his shooting is laughable. Teams leave him unmarked as they know he won't score and he won't create. 

That same PSG that bought David Luiz for a record fee. 

The same PSG that has some of the most talented players in Europe.... they want Gana. 

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If we can command a good fee, I would sell him in a minute. Useful player, but not someone I would miss. Ideally we will sell him for 30m and will bring in a replacement.

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2 hours ago, Haiku said:

If we can command a good fee, I would sell him in a minute. Useful player, but not someone I would miss. Ideally we will sell him for 30m and will bring in a replacement.

See that’s a fair judgment for him. 

Many don’t see him as integral to the team, but recognise his role in the team. 

I don’t honk 30m for his age is a fair price, and one that we could use to find a younger replacement. Let’s face it, another year and his battery’s are going to start to deteriorate.

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4 hours ago, Shukes said:

Let’s face it, another year and his battery’s are going to start to deteriorate.

And that wouldn’t be ECO friendly. 

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1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Need to get Pete on  the centre circle to give a speech about what makes a good DM 

One who can position himself, time his tackles, tackle with conviction not just sticking a leg in, play the man rather than just chase the ball, be clever with his fouls. 

Have a bit of vision, pass the ball with purpose and accuracy. A decent bang would be helpful too, more so if you're playing centre mid. 

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20 minutes ago, pete0 said:

One who can position himself, time his tackles, tackle with conviction not just sticking a leg in, play the man rather than just chase the ball, be clever with his fouls. 

Have a bit of vision, pass the ball with purpose and accuracy. A decent bang would be helpful too, more so if you're playing centre mid. 

A bit like Gana then?

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On 09/06/2019 at 19:43, pete0 said:

One who can position himself, time his tackles, tackle with conviction not just sticking a leg in, play the man rather than just chase the ball, be clever with his fouls. 

Have a bit of vision, pass the ball with purpose and accuracy. A decent bang would be helpful too, more so if you're playing centre mid. 

Sounds like you are looking for someone who has a high number of interceptions, % tackles won, tackles won, ball retrieval...... PSG are looking for someone who does that too.... seeks they have identified Gana as the man to do it..... I wonder if that's because he is top of the pile in all those attributes? 

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2 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Sounds like you are looking for someone who has a high number of interceptions, % tackles won, tackles won, ball retrieval...... PSG are looking for someone who does that too.... seeks they have identified Gana as the man to do it..... I wonder if that's because he is top of the pile in all those attributes? 

Tackles won doesn't show were the ball then ends up or whether you won possession. 

Interceptions doesn't show whether you won it by being in the right place like Barry or by running round like a headless chicken like Gana. 

Football is not baseball. You won't win the league with moneyball, just look at the Walsh Koeman fiasco we endured. Look at the goal we conceded against Liverpool purely because Gana was out of position. Where's the stats to show that? 

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11 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Tackles won doesn't show were the ball then ends up or whether you won possession. 

Interceptions doesn't show whether you won it by being in the right place like Barry or by running round like a headless chicken like Gana. 

Football is not baseball. You won't win the league with moneyball, just look at the Walsh Koeman fiasco we endured. Look at the goal we conceded against Liverpool purely because Gana was out of position. Where's the stats to show that? 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Look at the goal we conceded against Liverpool purely because Gana was out of position. Where's the stats to show that? 

I often try to ignore this thread but there are times when I just can't.  Some of the comments you come out with Pete have me believing that we have no other players on the pitch,  every goal against, every missed tackle, every missed pass,  and all the bad positioning seems to be down to Gana.  Its time you left this alone because you will only come in for a lot  more ridicule.

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18 minutes ago, Bill said:

I often try to ignore this thread but there are times when I just can't.  Some of the comments you come out with Pete have me believing that we have no other players on the pitch,  every goal against, every missed tackle, every missed pass,  and all the bad positioning seems to be down to Gana.  Its time you left this alone because you will only come in for a lot  more ridicule.

Look at the goal. Every player is in position bar one. You get punished at this level for giving away space so freely. 

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32 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Look at the goal. Every player is in position bar one. You get punished at this level for giving away space so freely. 

But you know he’s been asked to press and not to just hold position. It’s sort of the idea of the high press that our manager is a big fan of. 

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20 minutes ago, StevO said:

But you know he’s been asked to press and not to just hold position. It’s sort of the idea of the high press that our manager is a big fan of. 

In that phase of play he's not pressing at all until its too late, he's just jogging bone idly. 

The high press is further up the pitch not in your own box. All the other players fall back in line. Two banks of four is defending 101, which they are roughly in Gana included. Then the way the play goes means Gana should drop and fill the gap. 

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I’m thinking about inconsistency here, my own, re Gana.  Or maybe it’s irony.

For, I tend to agree at least as much as disagree with Pete0 and Palfy’s criticisms of Gana.  Many months back, for me it came down to a “risk/reward” calculation, and I seemed to notice more of Gana’s risky mistakes than disruptive rewards.  But educated (speaking of irony) by the “weirdness” back-and-forth in this thread, I do see more of Gana’s value.  Not enough to think Pete0 and Palfy were utterly misguided, but maybe a slightly more balanced, if still skeptical, critical perspective.

I will not be devastated if he goes this summer.  I am much, much more concerned that we keep Gomes and Zouma (than Gana), and that we sign a good striker.  But if he insists on joining PSG or another bigger club, I want an outrageously high fee, a fee more than commensurate with the very highest praise of his enthusiasts.  I’d want a shockingly high fee for a player I do not consider great.  Inconsistency, irony?  Surely not hypocrisy.  Ha!

So, what would be the expected range of a fee Everton could demand?

And for his many fervent supporters on TT, would you be outraged if Everton fail to secure the very top figure in that range, and maybe more in, say, add-ons?

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Where's all the city players? Oh wait, you don't win the league for getting the most tackles in. 

Surely seeing stats like that where Gana is such an outlier you'd think he's doing it too much? Like he's just tackling for the sake of it. There's no thought, there's no playing with his brain, he's just a tackling robot. 

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4 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Where's all the city players? Oh wait, you don't win the league for getting the most tackles in. 

Surely seeing stats like that where Gana is such an outlier you'd think he's doing it too much? Like he's just tackling for the sake of it. There's no thought, there's no playing with his brain, he's just a tackling robot. 

Are you fucking serious?! You truly are inept

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7 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Where's all the city players? Oh wait, you don't win the league for getting the most tackles in. 

Surely seeing stats like that where Gana is such an outlier you'd think he's doing it too much? Like he's just tackling for the sake of it. There's no thought, there's no playing with his brain, he's just a tackling robot. 

😂😂😂😂 A DM who tackles too much . The gift that keeps on giving! 

Hope we can sign a striker this summer who scores too many 

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23 minutes ago, Matt said:

Are you fucking serious?! You truly are inept

Inept is tackling for the sake of it. Sometimes it's smarter to let the opposition keep the ball but then again maybe Mourinho is just inept. 

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20 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Inept is tackling for the sake of it. Sometimes it's smarter to let the opposition keep the ball but then again maybe Mourinho is just inept. 

The guy who got found out the last few years? No, he’s not inept, he’s been found out (like tiki taka managers). The game has changed, pressing has (finally) taken over as the new fad tactic. In 5 years time, it’ll be a “low” press again, then possession; rinse and repeat. Which is why the best teams set the trend rather than follow suit years behind  

I do agree that tackling for tackling sake can, in a very small amount of cases, can be counter productive. But pressing and hounding constantly means that 99/100 it pays off. 

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29 minutes ago, Matt said:

The guy who got found out the last few years? No, he’s not inept, he’s been found out (like tiki taka managers). The game has changed, pressing has (finally) taken over as the new fad tactic. In 5 years time, it’ll be a “low” press again, then possession; rinse and repeat. Which is why the best teams set the trend rather than follow suit years behind  

I do agree that tackling for tackling sake can, in a very small amount of cases, can be counter productive. But pressing and hounding constantly means that 99/100 it pays off. 

Found out? He won the uefa with a really poor man u side and dragged them to second. 

If you are defending in your own third you don't press the same as how you would further up the field. The team is in two banks of four. Gana just doesn't read the play. Nothing to do with pressing tactics, we were defending in our own area. 

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2 hours ago, StevO said:

I hope we sell him just so we don’t have to hear this rubbish anymore. 

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I’d still like to know from some of Gana’s (many) strong supporters what fee you think Everton should demand.  That is, assume both that he’s determined to leave for CL football and Everton are determined not to sell for less than what Everton and many others say is an unusually valuable player?  How much should we insist on, in that scenario?

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6 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I’d still like to know from some of Gana’s (many) strong supporters what fee you think Everton should demand.  That is, assume both that he’s determined to leave for CL football and Everton are determined not to sell for less than what Everton and many others say is an unusually valuable player?  How much should we insist on, in that scenario?

£40 mill minimum

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5 hours ago, Shukes said:

Your talking football now though, that’s not what this thread is about. 

Palfy and PeteO would teach kids to rush in and double up in the penalty area and leave a space behind. Whereas a football coach would teach kids to take up the space between, and force the player towards the line to make a more acutely angle.... again, Palfy and PeteO would be telling them to show the player the inside and give them a larger target to aim at.

To them it makes sense.

To the rest of the known universe, it doesn’t.

Me and Palfy both said he should position himself not rush in. 

5 hours ago, Shukes said:

Just been looking it up.

The only count a tackle as won if it turns over possession or takes the ball out of play, so err.... yes.... it does mean that.

Check it first game of the season. Tackle was just disposing the player with the ball. 

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15 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I’d still like to know from some of Gana’s (many) strong supporters what fee you think Everton should demand.  That is, assume both that he’s determined to leave for CL football and Everton are determined not to sell for less than what Everton and many others say is an unusually valuable player?  How much should we insist on, in that scenario?

I’d take £35m if he was adamant he wanted to leave, I’d like more but I think that would be a fair price. 

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