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Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

No idea where you get your stats from. 

The premier league site has that he's made 3 big chances and has 5 assists. Which doesn't sound too bad until you realise that's across his four seasons over here. 

For comparison Kante playing a similar role to Gana this season got 4 assists and created 4 big chances.

Strange thing is critics all slate Kante and applaud Gana. Amazing how far a reputation can carry you. 

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created

Hmmm...

 Wasn't it you who said kante wasn't playing the same role as gana when his defensive stats pissed all over his?  How many ways do you want it. 

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2 hours ago, hafnia said:

Hmmm...

 Wasn't it you who said kante wasn't playing the same role as gana when his defensive stats pissed all over his?  How many ways do you want it. 

This year he is, CM, every week it's been mentioned he's been asked to play a different role and struggling. Before that Kante was the DM. 

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3 hours ago, Palfy said:

It’s been very quiet on the transfer front surrounding Gana have PSG lost interest or are they biding their time. 

Hopefully they have lost interest.

Or, I’m hoping we have had that conversation with them that we need to line up a replacement first. 

But the real reason is probably he’s been in the AFCON. I think most players are starting to return from holiday now, so I’m expecting the window to start waking up.

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9 hours ago, Palfy said:

It’s been very quiet on the transfer front surrounding Gana have PSG lost interest or are they biding their time. 

they have FFP issues so they need outgoings of either neymar (not gonna happen unless on a cut rate) or many others.  i could see the rumors re-appearing around TDD if they get rid of some people

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2 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

You should’ve just stuck to reading it. Now I have to hate you too. 

Although, this is the Gana thread so I may let you off. 

I had to scroll down quite a bit to find this thread. It was almost at the bottom of the page, yet Gana is talked about in every other one.

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5 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

ander herrera signed for PSG so i think he's staying here.

Does that mean no one else is interested in the best stats midfielder in the Premier league, if so that surly must show he's not rated as highly by others as he is here which is hard to understand when you consider the amount of people who sing his praises.

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1 minute ago, Palfy said:

Does that mean no one else is interested in the best stats midfielder in the Premier league, if so that surly must show he's not rated as highly by others as he is here which is hard to understand when you consider the amount of people who sing his praises.

Could be that he’s discussing a new contract or has said he doesn’t want to leave. 

Pretty sure no ones bid for Messi over the years, does that mean he’s no good too?

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7 minutes ago, Matt said:

Could be that he’s discussing a new contract or has said he doesn’t want to leave. 

Pretty sure no ones bid for Messi over the years, does that mean he’s no good too?

I fought the was a fair question and assessment of what's happening with Gana, they could be trying to convince him his future lies here with more money, I doubt he's said he doesn't want to leave when he made it clear he wants to play at a higher standard.

And please let's not start trying to find comparisons with Messi fantasy football is on another thread 😀, I think it maybe his age which is stopping others being interested not the money.

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7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I fought the was a fair question and assessment of what's happening with Gana, they could be trying to convince him his future lies here with more money, I doubt he's said he doesn't want to leave when he made it clear he wants to play at a higher standard.

And please let's not start trying to find comparisons with Messi fantasy football is on another thread 😀, I think it maybe his age which is stopping others being interested not the money.

My point is that lack of bids for a player has absolutely nothing to do with the players ability or how highly rated they may be

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44 minutes ago, Matt said:

Could be that he’s discussing a new contract or has said he doesn’t want to leave. 

Pretty sure no ones bid for Messi over the years, does that mean he’s no good too?

Real Madrid apparently tried three times. 

14 minutes ago, Matt said:

My point is that lack of bids for a player has absolutely nothing to do with the players ability or how highly rated they may be

Most Everton players I can think of who were good enough for the step up have moved from us, only ones off the top of my head I can think of are Cahill and Baines who were both touted by man u. 

McCarthy would have probably fell in the bracket if not for injury. 

Of the current crop good enough Richarlison and Digne have only been here a year. I'd expect interest next year if we don't kick on. Only other player would be Pickford all the top 6 all have keepers just as good bar Spurs but lloris is solid enough for them to prioritise their money towards out field players. 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

My point is that lack of bids for a player has absolutely nothing to do with the players ability or how highly rated they may be

Other clubs may feel we want too much money for a player in his 30’s. He wouldn’t be good value for the money we would want for him. 

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1 hour ago, hafnia said:

Feel free to move the gana/delph posts in here Romey.  Shouldn't be deleting them. 

 

I’m trying so hard not to delete that post. 

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8 hours ago, pete0 said:

Real Madrid apparently tried three times. 

Most Everton players I can think of who were good enough for the step up have moved from us, only ones off the top of my head I can think of are Cahill and Baines who were both touted by man u. 

McCarthy would have probably fell in the bracket if not for injury. 

Of the current crop good enough Richarlison and Digne have only been here a year. I'd expect interest next year if we don't kick on. Only other player would be Pickford all the top 6 all have keepers just as good bar Spurs but lloris is solid enough for them to prioritise their money towards out field players. 

3 times in 15 years?! :o Must’ve only been any good for 3 seasons then...

7 hours ago, StevO said:

Other clubs may feel we want too much money for a player in his 30’s. He wouldn’t be good value for the money we would want for him. 

Indeed, could be an option too. But it’s still absolutely no reflection on the players ability. 

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9 hours ago, Palfy said:

Does that mean no one else is interested in the best stats midfielder in the Premier league, if so that surly must show he's not rated as highly by others as he is here which is hard to understand when you consider the amount of people who sing his praises.

Now you are being an internet troll haha. Here is no way you actually mean that. 

Come in Palfy out your stirring stick away and play fair.

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4 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Now you are being an internet troll haha. Here is no way you actually mean that. 

Come in Palfy out your stirring stick away and play fair.

😂 your right to a degree there's more than one way to skin a cat.

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8 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Feel free to post about Gana in here and I won’t. 

It shouldn't have been deleted in the first place.

Let's see if your mardy stance is consistant eh.... I very much doubt it. 

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1 hour ago, hafnia said:

It shouldn't have been deleted in the first place.

Let's see if your mardy stance is consistant eh.... I very much doubt it. 

It's been requested many times for people to stop posting Gana shite all over the place, ruining other threads.

Not everything that goes off topic is bad, it makes threads fun when it happens under certain circumstances, but when the same arguments are being made about a player that aren't needed or relevant then it gets a bit boring for people to read all over the place. So I will be deleting any bickering about Gana that isn't relevant to the thread or where the discussion is at in that thread.

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20 hours ago, Palfy said:

Fucking Uganda I think I could have won that 😀

Still doesn't take away the fact that he won of the match. There were 21 other players that could have won it, just so you know.

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35 minutes ago, sibdane said:

Still doesn't take away the fact that he won of the match. There were 21 other players that could have won it, just so you know.

Potentially more if you include subs

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7 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

It's been requested many times for people to stop posting Gana shite all over the place, ruining other threads.

Not everything that goes off topic is bad, it makes threads fun when it happens under certain circumstances, but when the same arguments are being made about a player that aren't needed or relevant then it gets a bit boring for people to read all over the place. So I will be deleting any bickering about Gana that isn't relevant to the thread or where the discussion is at in that thread.

If a post isn’t threatening abusive or racist surly there’s no good reason to delete it, move it to the relevant thread if it upsets you by all means, but to delete it is to take away ones right to debate and what use is a forum that doesn’t allow debate, it takes at least two people to debate so if there was dialogue they are doing what the forum was intended to achieve, that fact that they were going over old ground shouldn’t give you the right to delete because of your personal preference, they and others may enjoy it because you don’t should be of no consequence. 

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12 minutes ago, Palfy said:

If a post isn’t threatening abusive or racist surly there’s no good reason to delete it, move it to the relevant thread if it upsets you by all means, but to delete it is to take away ones right to debate and what use is a forum that doesn’t allow debate, it takes at least two people to debate so if there was dialogue they are doing what the forum was intended to achieve, that fact that they were going over old ground shouldn’t give you the right to delete because of your personal preference, they and others may enjoy it because you don’t should be of no consequence. 

When it’s debating it’s fine, and we’ll try and move the offending posts. When it’s bickering, sniping and baiting it’s not, and we’ve learnt from years of experience that letting it get out of hand is in no ones interest. 

There wasn’t only 1 post deleted so far as I can tell either and this isn’t the first time, sure as shit won’t be the last. It’s got nothing to do with personal preference, it’s about protecting the forum. If people want to engage in tit for tat, they can take it to PM and sort it out between themselves - the rest of the forum doesn’t have to suffer for it. 

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Its an absolute joke.

The debate wasn't unhealthy or tiresome.. my post was around role vs position and the difference.

Complete and utter piss take which you got wrong Romey and far too power happy and mardy. The fact other mods agree means nothing to me.  Yes sometimes posts can be irritating but on this occasion we weren't going over old ground.... it was around Delph, similarities to Gana and how a CM can have different roles.

Piss take as I said.  I haven't posted much of recent and will likely do less so. 

You need to look at how you want this site to be seen.  Mardy giggly old boys network going on and it's not good. 

 

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13 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Its an absolute joke.

The debate wasn't unhealthy or tiresome.. my post was around role vs position and the difference.

Complete and utter piss take which you got wrong Romey and far too power happy and mardy. The fact other mods agree means nothing to me.  Yes sometimes posts can be irritating but on this occasion we weren't going over old ground.... it was around Delph, similarities to Gana and how a CM can have different roles.

Piss take as I said.  I haven't posted much of recent and will likely do less so. 

You need to look at how you want this site to be seen.  Mardy giggly old boys network going on and it's not good. 

 

The old clique, power hungry mods bullshit again? Sigh. 

He did what he thought was right. Mods supported the decision. Deal with it. I expect this to be deleted too, since it’s nonsense and taking things off topic again. 

As has been said; got a problem with someone, take it to PM or let it go

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49 minutes ago, MikeO said:

https://www.beinsports.com/us/afcon/video/gueye-gives-senegal-lead-over-benin/1239178

(You probably need to put yourself in the US to watch)

great goal.  senegal have some good players on paper.  koulibaly, gana, mane, balde, and then ok players like kouyate and niang.  i hope they win the AFCON, talent is there.

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1 minute ago, Palfy said:

Your a good person Shukes and healthy to be around in a mentality way, i much prefer you taking the piss out of me than agreeing with me when it comes to Gana, you know the saying threes a crowd 😀

Just glad you see it that way mate. From now on I’m Gana try be more understanding! And I love you to mate, but not in a Gueye kind of way 😉

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1 minute ago, Shukes said:

Just glad you see it that way mate. From now on I’m Gana try be more understanding! And I love you to mate, but not in a Gueye kind of way 😉

😂😂😂 Bollocks I was just getting in my car to come and see you think I'm Gana give it a miss.

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3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

😂😂😂 Bollocks I was just getting in my car to come and see you think I'm Gana give it a miss.

Here you go again... suggesting Gana misses! Stats show...... ahh I suppose they show your right there haha.

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I’m not a big Gana fan, but his stats surely are often impressive, and obviously he’s highly regarded by most.  Some months back we got into a discussion of his play in terms of risk-reward.  For whatever (biased? uninformed?) reasons, I have tended to notice his risky moves.  I’ve thought his great ability to disrupt opponents sometimes produces an unhelpful disruption to his own team.  In this sense, although I demur from signing on to all of their Gana-deconstruction, I’ve thought pete0 and Palfy make sensible points about his sometimes being out of position, and about the dangerous consequences of his unremitting chance-taking.

I’m not here to try to convince anyone that Gana is grossly overrated.  But looking forward, I do wonder whether Gana is the right “fit” with Gomes, who is, to me, a wonderful player.  Is it possible that Schneiderlin — or preferably a more talented player “like” him — would be a better pairing with Gomes?  (If Gana is sold, I guess this is a moot point.)  Gomes is box-to-box, right?  In a 4-2-3-1 setup, he’s nominally a DM.  But he’s no DM; he’s a “controlling CM.”  We want him consistently moving forward, holding off defenders with his strength and ball-control, producing pinpoint, attacking passes.  Gomes probably isn’t a particularly good defender at all.

My view is that Gomes should be given free rein to initiate and control Everton’s offensive movement.  In this — my — overriding scenario, he needs a partner to “sit” back, no or very little box-to-box stuff, in front of the CHs, especially when either Coleman or Digne is going forward.  Gana’s no “sitter.”  Indeed, he’s not just box-to-box, but touchline-to-touchline, byline-to-byline, a chaotic, if often exhilarating, disruptor.  But he’s incapable of staying back near the CHs.  That’s not who he is.  He can’t do what I think straightforwardly needs doing.

Although Gana is a truly exciting individual player, I suspect Everton’s producing exciting team-football depends more on Gomes’s controlling play, Richarlison’s maturing consistency, the Bernard-Digne partnership, Sigurdsson’s sneaky goals, and a new striker.  Schneiderlin is certainly not the player Gana is, but he or an upgrade at Sitter-DM might produce a better flow, a different, more effective offensive excitement.

We want goals.  Gomes is the key to getting the ball to players in places where they can produce shots.  Is Gana the ideal partner for Gomes?  I am skeptical.  No player can do what Gana does.  But maybe what Gana does isn’t what Everton needs doing.

I readily concede, finally, that Gomes’s wanting to play for Everton, contrasted with Gana’s somewhat dispiriting if easily understandable desire for CL football, furthers my enthusiasm for building our top-4 near-future project around Gomes.

 

 

 

 

 

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Excellent post Elston.

Yes I think there is no doubt we can replace Gana with a more productive player. Up until this point he has fit a hole that needed filling.

If were to take the next step, we need to replace many players with upgrades, Gana being one of them. At the moment Gana is the link up player, and while doing it effectively, he doesn’t have that final third play that we all long for. 

Now we have Gomes, do we actually need a destroyer in midfield? Because Gomes is our deep sitting playmaker. We could sacrifice Ganas position for a more tracking player.

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10 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

I’m not a big Gana fan, but his stats surely are often impressive, and obviously he’s highly regarded by most.  Some months back we got into a discussion of his play in terms of risk-reward.  For whatever (biased? uninformed?) reasons, I have tended to notice his risky moves.  I’ve thought his great ability to disrupt opponents sometimes produces an unhelpful disruption to his own team.  In this sense, although I demur from signing on to all of their Gana-deconstruction, I’ve thought pete0 and Palfy make sensible points about his sometimes being out of position, and about the dangerous consequences of his unremitting chance-taking.

I’m not here to try to convince anyone that Gana is grossly overrated.  But looking forward, I do wonder whether Gana is the right “fit” with Gomes, who is, to me, a wonderful player.  Is it possible that Schneiderlin — or preferably a more talented player “like” him — would be a better pairing with Gomes?  (If Gana is sold, I guess this is a moot point.)  Gomes is box-to-box, right?  In a 4-2-3-1 setup, he’s nominally a DM.  But he’s no DM; he’s a “controlling CM.”  We want him consistently moving forward, holding off defenders with his strength and ball-control, producing pinpoint, attacking passes.  Gomes probably isn’t a particularly good defender at all.

My view is that Gomes should be given free rein to initiate and control Everton’s offensive movement.  In this — my — overriding scenario, he needs a partner to “sit” back, no or very little box-to-box stuff, in front of the CHs, especially when either Coleman or Digne is going forward.  Gana’s no “sitter.”  Indeed, he’s not just box-to-box, but touchline-to-touchline, byline-to-byline, a chaotic, if often exhilarating, disruptor.  But he’s incapable of staying back near the CHs.  That’s not who he is.  He can’t do what I think straightforwardly needs doing.

Although Gana is a truly exciting individual player, I suspect Everton’s producing exciting team-football depends more on Gomes’s controlling play, Richarlison’s maturing consistency, the Bernard-Digne partnership, Sigurdsson’s sneaky goals, and a new striker.  Schneiderlin is certainly not the player Gana is, but he or an upgrade at Sitter-DM might produce a better flow, a different, more effective offensive excitement.

We want goals.  Gomes is the key to getting the ball to players in places where they can produce shots.  Is Gana the ideal partner for Gomes?  I am skeptical.  No player can do what Gana does.  But maybe what Gana does isn’t what Everton needs doing.

I readily concede, finally, that Gomes’s wanting to play for Everton, contrasted with Gana’s somewhat dispiriting if easily understandable desire for CL football, furthers my enthusiasm for building our top-4 near-future project around Gomes.

 

Good post indeed Elston.  Think I am beginning to finally understand where pete and palfy are coming from.  Maybe it was all the statistical talk / claims he was the worst player ever in a blue shirt that was distracting me but when you put it in the context of the future and the fact Gomes has now signed a long term deal, I am starting to understand.  I am still a Gana fan and do not personally agree but I will admit that I now see the point they are trying to make.

Now if we could only keep the Gana talk in the Gana thread... tee hee.

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I get the comparisons between Gana and Schneiderlin. But they both have their strengths, similar but different. Schneiderlin is very good at sitting back and reading where the game is going to flow. Gana is better chasing the ball down and pressing high up. 

Both very capable in their roles, I’m sure each other’s style could be used very well against different opposition. 

Im a big fan of both of them, just please never let me see them on the pitch at the same time. Unless we are 1-0 up at Anfield with two minutes to go. 

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10 hours ago, Shukes said:

Excellent post Elston.

Yes I think there is no doubt we can replace Gana with a more productive player. Up until this point he has fit a hole that needed filling.

If were to take the next step, we need to replace many players with upgrades, Gana being one of them. At the moment Gana is the link up player, and while doing it effectively, he doesn’t have that final third play that we all long for. 

Now we have Gomes, do we actually need a destroyer in midfield? Because Gomes is our deep sitting playmaker. We could sacrifice Ganas position for a more tracking player.

I think we do. Personally I prefer Gomes breaking forward supporting the attack as opposed to do the graftier work of tracking back, filling gaps. He is a midfielder so he has to be able to do both but I dont think anyone would deny that he is MUCH better at the former than the latter. 

IMO we need a combination of Gana and Schneiderlin (or Barry if I was being greedy). We need someone who can read those defensive moves whilst having the acceleration and agility to cover the ground required. 

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19 minutes ago, sibdane said:

€40m we should answer the phone (and use it as a starting point for negotiation), if Senegal win the AFCON up it to €50m.

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€30 is way to low for him. He is in the prime of his career. You have to be looking at £45-£50 million and I give you one word for how I came up with that valuation. FRED. I know gana will want to go and maybe there is an agreement already with the player if the right price is met. Maybe 30 mill euros with a hidden gem thrown in that marcel likes 

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1 hour ago, barryj said:

If we sell (and I’m happy at the right price) we need to ensure we have his replacement signed up beforehand. 

As I posted above, the sensible thing might be to replace Gana with a player more like Schneiderlin than Gana.  My premise is that Gomes is a/the key to our attack as a controlling CM.  It’s at least conceivable to me that Schneiderlin, a sitting DM, is a better pairing with Gomes than is Gana, an everywhere disruptor.  I wouldn’t be satisfied to depend on Schneiderlin for an entire season, so if we sell Gana, we need to buy his replacement, but not a Gana-like-for-like replacement.  Rather, a sitter, to allow Gomes to originate our attack from midfield.   If Gomes does become the consistent midfield fulcrum of our attack, he probably can’t play 90 minutes every match.  Even less likely if he has to defend a lot.  Hence a dependable sitter is also crucial.

So, Schneiderlin and a similar new player as sitting DMs, either to pair with Gomes.  Davies as backup for Gomes and Sigurdsson.

Need first-choice striker, Gana (sitter) replacement, Zouma or replacement, Lookman replacement (though I prefer that he stay and get the occasional start).

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2 hours ago, barryj said:

If we sell (and I’m happy at the right price) we need to ensure we have his replacement signed up beforehand. 

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

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33 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

As I posted above, the sensible thing might be to replace Gana with a player more like Schneiderlin than Gana.  My premise is that Gomes is a/the key to our attack as a controlling CM.  It’s at least conceivable to me that Schneiderlin, a sitting DM, is a better pairing with Gomes than is Gana, an everywhere disruptor.  I wouldn’t be satisfied to depend on Schneiderlin for an entire season, so if we sell Gana, we need to buy his replacement, but not a Gana-like-for-like replacement.  Rather, a sitter, to allow Gomes to originate our attack from midfield.   If Gomes does become the consistent midfield fulcrum of our attack, he probably can’t play 90 minutes every match.  Even less likely if he has to defend a lot.  Hence a dependable sitter is also crucial.

So, Schneiderlin and a similar new player as sitting DMs, either to pair with Gomes.  Davies as backup for Gomes and Sigurdsson.

Need first-choice striker, Gana (sitter) replacement, Zouma or replacement, Lookman replacement (though I prefer that he stay and get the occasional start).

Do you really want to change how our midfield functions? Personally I think Gylfi, Gana and Gomes compliment each other in defence and attack, with Marco’s tactics. Three different skill sets. 

Gomes looked really good with a player like Gana next to him, I’d want to keep that compliment to his game. Gomes’s biggest strengths to me were his vision and passing ability, both with players in front of him. In a similar way to how Xavi Alonso used to dictate from deep. 

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18 minutes ago, Palfy said:

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

100% agree with the first paragraph (you knew I would haha)

if we were to bring in a midfielder to replace Gana who do you want to win the ball back? You’ve replaced him with someone good in possession, but Gomes and Gylfi are good in possession, neither are great at winning the ball back. Even City who have about 95% of the ball (exaggeration) use Fernandinho to mop up. The game can’t be all about attacking. Barca have Busquets, Spurs have Dier, PSG are looking for a player like this, all the great teams have a defence minded player in midfield. 

I don’t doubt three ball players would be exciting, but there’s a reason pretty much all managers will have a ball winner in the middle too. Defence is just as important as attack, if it’s not Gana, we need someone in there to win the ball back.

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

That’s the easiest question I’ve had to answer on here. Simple, because he wants to leave and everyone has their price no matter how good they are. He’s been the model pro and I’d hope that would continue but you never know. 

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6 hours ago, StevO said:

100% agree with the first paragraph (you knew I would haha)

if we were to bring in a midfielder to replace Gana who do you want to win the ball back? You’ve replaced him with someone good in possession, but Gomes and Gylfi are good in possession, neither are great at winning the ball back. Even City who have about 95% of the ball (exaggeration) use Fernandinho to mop up. The game can’t be all about attacking. Barca have Busquets, Spurs have Dier, PSG are looking for a player like this, all the great teams have a defence minded player in midfield. 

I don’t doubt three ball players would be exciting, but there’s a reason pretty much all managers will have a ball winner in the middle too. Defence is just as important as attack, if it’s not Gana, we need someone in there to win the ball back.

I would go for a Dacoure or a Viera type of player both are strong in the tackle yet are very composed and offer a lot more when in possession of the ball. 

Let’s be honest we never struggled winning the ball back before Gana was here, but what has been proven is that although we may statistically of had the best ball winner in the league for the odd season, in those seasons we also had some of the worst percentages of ball possession, because he loses the ball in equal measures. 

The best game I have ever seen him play for us was against Cardiff he was good no let’s be honest he was very good but he hasn’t repeated that since and what was good about that game for me was what he did with the ball how he carried it and his defence splitting passes, he for once became the complete all round midfielder that Silva had been looking  for, that’s why his praise for what he did that game was slightly overboard but I understand that he wanted him to believe that there was more to his game than just winning the ball back and being disruptive. 

But we hadn’t seen that side of his game after the Cardiff game until the game against Benin the other night not good enough for me I want that sort of performance on regular basis not once in a blue moon.

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