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Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

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10 hours ago, barryj said:

If we sell (and I’m happy at the right price) we need to ensure we have his replacement signed up beforehand. 

 

8 hours ago, Palfy said:

A like for like or another CM with different attributes, because if you consider the one you’ve got is the right fit why would you be happy to sell. 

I’d be happy to sell and find a different type of player who can keep the ball better so we’re not so focused on winning the ball back but more on what we can do better when we’re in possession. 

 

5 hours ago, barryj said:

That’s the easiest question I’ve had to answer on here. Simple, because he wants to leave and everyone has their price no matter how good they are. He’s been the model pro and I’d hope that would continue but you never know. 

Yes that was the easiest question you had to answer on here yet you didn’t answer it, the question was quite simple a like for like or something different if you were happy to sell, you told me why you were happy to sell thanks but I really  wanted to know what you wanted as a replacement. 

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Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him. Selling Gana means we’re gping to have to step up in the market and in fine with that.

Watched Dacoure or whatever his name is haha a few times now, and he’s not the answer. Goes forward faster, but doesn’t do anything with it and isn’t anywhere near Ganas level at pressing. This is where we need to step up to the next level. 

We need to be looking to replace him with an improved player, or a young model that’s almost at his level, with potential to be better. Not sure who that player is, but I’m sure Brands has a few in mind.

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8 hours ago, Palfy said:

I would go for a Dacoure or a Viera type of player both are strong in the tackle yet are very composed and offer a lot more when in possession of the ball. 

Let’s be honest we never struggled winning the ball back before Gana was here, but what has been proven is that although we may statistically of had the best ball winner in the league for the odd season, in those seasons we also had some of the worst percentages of ball possession, because he loses the ball in equal measures. 

The best game I have ever seen him play for us was against Cardiff he was good no let’s be honest he was very good but he hasn’t repeated that since and what was good about that game for me was what he did with the ball how he carried it and his defence splitting passes, he for once became the complete all round midfielder that Silva had been looking  for, that’s why his praise for what he did that game was slightly overboard but I understand that he wanted him to believe that there was more to his game than just winning the ball back and being disruptive. 

But we hadn’t seen that side of his game after the Cardiff game until the game against Benin the other night not good enough for me I want that sort of performance on regular basis not once in a blue moon.

I am a big fan of Dacoure to be honest, I think he would be great alongside Gomes if we got Gana. 

I don’t think our possession stats have been bad have they? Apart from that spell under Sam. 

I agree about how good he was against Cardiff, but they were a very poor team. It’s easier to stand out against poor sides. But he has been good against the better sides too, but his defensive qualities are needed more then. At home against the weaker sides it wouldn’t bother me if Davies played ahead of Gana, but it’s hard to drop him when he’s so important to Marcos tactics. 

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10 hours ago, Shukes said:

Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him. Selling Gana means we’re gping to have to step up in the market and in fine with that.

Watched Dacoure or whatever his name is haha a few times now, and he’s not the answer. Goes forward faster, but doesn’t do anything with it and isn’t anywhere near Ganas level at pressing. This is where we need to step up to the next level. 

We need to be looking to replace him with an improved player, or a young model that’s almost at his level, with potential to be better. Not sure who that player is, but I’m sure Brands has a few in mind.

I think Gomes is best when he is the box to box player. He is as comfortable taking the ball of CBs as he is around the box. I think back to his Wolves goal and that is what I would like to see from him rather than sitting behind 2 others in midfield because time and time again he has shown that he doesnt have a defensive enough mindset. He is pretty rash in the tackle too. 

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20 hours ago, StevO said:

100% agree with the first paragraph (you knew I would haha)

if we were to bring in a midfielder to replace Gana who do you want to win the ball back? You’ve replaced him with someone good in possession, but Gomes and Gylfi are good in possession, neither are great at winning the ball back. Even City who have about 95% of the ball (exaggeration) use Fernandinho to mop up. The game can’t be all about attacking. Barca have Busquets, Spurs have Dier, PSG are looking for a player like this, all the great teams have a defence minded player in midfield. 

I don’t doubt three ball players would be exciting, but there’s a reason pretty much all managers will have a ball winner in the middle too. Defence is just as important as attack, if it’s not Gana, we need someone in there to win the ball back.

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

11 hours ago, Shukes said:

Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him. Selling Gana means we’re gping to have to step up in the market and in fine with that.

Watched Dacoure or whatever his name is haha a few times now, and he’s not the answer. Goes forward faster, but doesn’t do anything with it and isn’t anywhere near Ganas level at pressing. This is where we need to step up to the next level. 

We need to be looking to replace him with an improved player, or a young model that’s almost at his level, with potential to be better. Not sure who that player is, but I’m sure Brands has a few in mind.

He might have just had a bad game. He's powerful, a leader, and comfortable on the ball with his biggest attribute driving the ball forward. Decent bang on him too. 5 goals and 7 assists last year. 

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24 minutes ago, pete0 said:

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

He might have just had a bad game. He's powerful, a leader, and comfortable on the ball with his biggest attribute driving the ball forward. Decent bang on him too. 5 goals and 7 assists last year. 

That’s what we need, the most disappointing thing from last season was watching games where we weren’t turning good possession and situations into goals. 

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11 hours ago, Shukes said:

Gomes has his best matches when taking game the ball from our defenders. He seems more at home back there. 

We need the box to box player to partner him.

 

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I think Gomes is best when he is the box to box player. He is as comfortable taking the ball of CBs as he is around the box. I think back to his Wolves goal and that is what I would like to see from him rather than sitting behind 2 others in midfield because time and time again he has shown that he doesnt have a defensive enough mindset. He is pretty rash in the tackle too. 

 

21 hours ago, StevO said:

Do you really want to change how our midfield functions? Personally I think Gylfi, Gana and Gomes compliment each other in defence and attack, with Marco’s tactics. Three different skill sets. 

Gomes looked really good with a player like Gana next to him, I’d want to keep that compliment to his game. Gomes’s biggest strengths to me were his vision and passing ability, both with players in front of him. In a similar way to how Xavi Alonso used to dictate from deep. 

I agree with Shukes in one -- but only one -- specific sense that Gomes is "at home back there."  He is, as Baily says, comfortable receiving the ball from the back.  But his role -- seems clear it's the one Silva has given him -- is to pivot immediately and initiate offensive movement.  He's "most at home" not near the back but moving toward the opponent's goal.  So as StevO says, he begins by dictating from deep, but... he doesn't stay deep.  As a controlling CM, he dictates the offense in multiple ways: from deep, with long, pinpoint passes; by dribbling, sometimes pirouetting, fending off defenders; mid-and-short-range-passes to any of several attackers; even the occasional blast (more of which I expect him to attempt this next season).  He really is box-to-box.  I doubt he's a particularly good defender (nor do I think Silva expects him to be), which is why I think he needs to be paired not with a box-to-box twin, but with a full-on sitter, a real DM.

StevO rightly highlights Gomes's vision and passing ability, to which I'd add: strength to hold off defenders, on-ball balance, confident dribbling.  His considerable skills are offensive skills.  He needs a partner with a mainly defensive mindset, a hard player, a grafter.

That's the sort of player I'd hope we could get, if Gana goes.  I assume he will be sold and that we'll probably start the season with a Gomes-Schneiderlin pairing. 

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44 minutes ago, pete0 said:

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

He might have just had a bad game. He's powerful, a leader, and comfortable on the ball with his biggest attribute driving the ball forward. Decent bang on him too. 5 goals and 7 assists last year. 

Could be, I only saw him a few times. He never looked anything above average when I saw him, but those stats suggest he is better than that. 

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12 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

 

 

I agree with Shukes in one -- but only one -- specific sense that Gomes is "at home back there."  He is, as Baily says, comfortable receiving the ball from the back.  But his role -- seems clear it's the one Silva has given him -- is to pivot immediately and initiate offensive movement.  He's "most at home" not near the back but moving toward the opponent's goal.  So as StevO says, he begins by dictating from deep, but... he doesn't stay deep.  As a controlling CM, he dictates the offense in multiple ways: from deep, with long, pinpoint passes; by dribbling, sometimes pirouetting, fending off defenders; mid-and-short-range-passes to any of several attackers; even the occasional blast (more of which I expect him to attempt this next season).  He really is box-to-box.  I doubt he's a particularly good defender (nor do I think Silva expects him to be), which is why I think he needs to be paired not with a box-to-box twin, but with a full-on sitter, a real DM.

StevO rightly highlights Gomes's vision and passing ability, to which I'd add: strength to hold off defenders, on-ball balance, confident dribbling.  His considerable skills are offensive skills.  He needs a partner with a mainly defensive mindset, a hard player, a grafter.

That's the sort of player I'd hope we could get, if Gana goes.  I assume he will be sold and that we'll probably start the season with a Gomes-Schneiderlin pairing. 

I agree with most of what you say but if Gana was to go and no one came into replace him,  I would like to see Davies start he would complement Gomes better than Schneiderlin who would ideally be cover Gomes not Gana. 

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5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree with most of what you say but if Gana was to go and no one came into replace him,  I would like to see Davies start he would complement Gomes better than Schneiderlin who would ideally be cover Gomes not Gana. 

We see this somewhat differently, I think.  The reason I see Schneiderlin as a better complement than Davies for Gomes is that I see Gomes and Davies both as box-to-box players.  I want a sitter to complement Gomes.  Schneiderlin is a sitter, right?  Maybe (1) Davies could be a sitter, or maybe (2) you and others prefer 2 box-to box players as a pairing.  Heck, do you and others see Schneiderlin as a box-to-box player?  I've just rarely seen him exhibit any offensive firepower.  He seems content to sit.

Ok, just assuming Gana leaves and is not replaced.....

I see Davies as a backup for Gomes (box-to-box type player), maybe for Sigurdsson (a sort of false 9), and maybe for Schneiderlin.   (I vaguely remember Schneiderlin played decently late last season?)  I can see Davies as both offensive and defensive-minded, depending on need.  He seems our most likely several-position midfield utility player.

I wouldn't be totally upset if Gana goes and is not replaced, but I'm pretty sure most others would be upset at that prospect.  But jeez, if we lost Gana, McCarthy, and Besic, then it's Gomes and one of Schneiderlin, Davies, maybe Baningime?  I sure hope Gomes has an injury-free season!

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4 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

We see this somewhat differently, I think.  The reason I see Schneiderlin as a better complement than Davies for Gomes is that I see Gomes and Davies both as box-to-box players.  I want a sitter to complement Gomes.  Schneiderlin is a sitter, right?  Maybe (1) Davies could be a sitter, or maybe (2) you and others prefer 2 box-to box players as a pairing.  Heck, do you and others see Schneiderlin as a box-to-box player?  I've just rarely seen him exhibit any offensive firepower.  He seems content to sit.

Ok, just assuming Gana leaves and is not replaced.....

I see Davies as a backup for Gomes (box-to-box type player), maybe for Sigurdsson (a sort of false 9), and maybe for Schneiderlin.   (I vaguely remember Schneiderlin played decently late last season?)  I can see Davies as both offensive and defensive-minded, depending on need.  He seems our most likely several-position midfield utility player.

I wouldn't be totally upset if Gana goes and is not replaced, but I'm pretty sure most others would be upset at that prospect.  But jeez, if we lost Gana, McCarthy, and Besic, then it's Gomes and one of Schneiderlin, Davies, maybe Baningime?  I sure hope Gomes has an injury-free season!

I see Gomes as the the DM as the role he currently plays with Gana who last season became the CM who was generally forward of Gomes, you could play Schneiderlin as DM and Gomes as CM but I feel that would detract from Gomes game who likes to receive the ball from the back and have the whole game in front of him with his vision he gets us going, that’s why I would prefer him to play with Davies than Schneiderlin. 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

All three of them are the DM, they sit read the play and then mop up. Gana doesn't do that. 

They aren’t though. There is one number 10 and two others playing centrally with two different tactical approaches to their play. 

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I agree with most of what you say but if Gana was to go and no one came into replace him,  I would like to see Davies start he would complement Gomes better than Schneiderlin who would ideally be cover Gomes not Gana. 

I like the idea in theory. In reality I think we would get over run in midfield. 

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33 minutes ago, StevO said:

They aren’t though. There is one number 10 and two others playing centrally with two different tactical approaches to their play. 

Fernandinho, Dier and Busquets. The ones you stated about all teams having a ball winner. Kante is the closest in having the same role as Gana, in winning the ball back from CM, but even he does a lot than just disrupt play. I don't know any team that is happy for a centre mid to do as little as Gana going forward. Looking at the players in his position in all the other teams they all do more. 

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1 hour ago, StevO said:

I like the idea in theory. In reality I think we would get over run in midfield. 

Well if reports by 3 or 4 sources are correct it could be Gomes and Delph which isn’t far off Gomes and Davies, and nothing like Schneiderlin and Gomes. 

I personally think Delph would give us a lot more than Gana hope this happens. 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Fernandinho, Dier and Busquets. The ones you stated about all teams having a ball winner. Kante is the closest in having the same role as Gana, in winning the ball back from CM, but even he does a lot than just disrupt play. I don't know any team that is happy for a centre mid to do as little as Gana going forward. Looking at the players in his position in all the other teams they all do more. 

But most teams have a player in midfield who’s job isn’t based around going forward. That’s Gomes’s job. Two players can play the same position differently. So your issue isn’t with Gana, your issue is what Marco expects from him. 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

I don't know any team that is happy for a centre mid to do as little as Gana going forward.

That sounds hypocritical considering he scored the other day the only goal which qualifies Senegal for the semi-final. 

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3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I see Gomes as the the DM as the role he currently plays with Gana who last season became the CM who was generally forward of Gomes, you could play Schneiderlin as DM and Gomes as CM but I feel that would detract from Gomes game who likes to receive the ball from the back and have the whole game in front of him with his vision he gets us going, that’s why I would prefer him to play with Davies than Schneiderlin. 

Gomes isn’t a DM. He’s just a central midfielder. His strength is having players in front of him, so he will sit deep. 

Gana is the DM, but the manager tells him to press high up the pitch. 

Just because Gomes will sit the deeper of the two doesn’t make him defensive, it’s just making the most of both of these players skill sets. 

If Marco asked Davies’s or Schneiderlin to play instead of Gana, he may ask them to carry out the same tasks. They may or may not carry them out to the same level as Gana.

The same as I said to Pete, your issue is with the managers tactics. Not the players involved. 

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48 minutes ago, StevO said:

But most teams have a player in midfield who’s job isn’t based around going forward. That’s Gomes’s job. Two players can play the same position differently. So your issue isn’t with Gana, your issue is what Marco expects from him. 

Most teams have a DM who mops up. How many have a centre mid doing it? Not many, I can't think of one, closest would be Kante but that's not his main role, Jorginho mops up for them. The main reason there isn't many is the risk is far too high as it leaves gaps in midfield. The only players who should be under instruction to press regardless are the attackers as any where else is too risky. 

Gana's job is to link defence with attack he's the centre mid. After the Cardiff game when Gana carried the ball forward and thread a pass through for an assist. Silva said that's his job. 

45 minutes ago, Haiku said:

That sounds hypocritical considering he scored the other day the only goal which qualifies Senegal for the semi-final. 

Against Benin. Ranked 88 in the world and only got one player valued over a million. 

https://www.transfermarkt.com/benin/startseite/verein/3955

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5 hours ago, StevO said:

Gomes isn’t a DM. He’s just a central midfielder. His strength is having players in front of him, so he will sit deep. 

Gana is the DM, but the manager tells him to press high up the pitch. 

Just because Gomes will sit the deeper of the two doesn’t make him defensive, it’s just making the most of both of these players skill sets. 

If Marco asked Davies’s or Schneiderlin to play instead of Gana, he may ask them to carry out the same tasks. They may or may not carry them out to the same level as Gana.

The same as I said to Pete, your issue is with the managers tactics. Not the players involved. 

Well if Gana goes and Delph arrives it will be interesting to see see how they play and indeed who plays. 

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8 hours ago, StevO said:

Gomes isn’t a DM. He’s just a central midfielder. His strength is having players in front of him, so he will sit deep. 

Gana is the DM, but the manager tells him to press high up the pitch. 

Just because Gomes will sit the deeper of the two doesn’t make him defensive, it’s just making the most of both of these players skill sets. 

If Marco asked Davies’s or Schneiderlin to play instead of Gana, he may ask them to carry out the same tasks. They may or may not carry them out to the same level as Gana.

The same as I said to Pete, your issue is with the managers tactics. Not the players involved. 

Gomes plays in the most defensive position of the 2 although he’s not by your definition a complete DM and I do agree, he is still by position offering more in protection to the back 4 than Gana did last season.

 I’m not really a stats man so don’t go searching for that sort of evidence to try to prove my point I prefer to to let what I see in front of me make me come to a decision, and what I saw from Gana last season wasn’t  the position of a DM it was a CM who was being told to by his manager to make his impact on the game in the oppositions half with the ball. So that tells me the intention of how Silva wants to play in MF, I believe he wants players who can give a bit of everything Gomes does that that’s why he is so well received by the fans and you don’t need to look at stats to know he’s a good player it’s plain to see, but in truth that can not be said of Gana his stats were constantly being produced two seasons ago as vindication that he was good you shouldn’t need to do that if a player is good we would see that for ourselves, I would take a punt that his stats weren’t as impressive last season as the season before, because they weren’t being posted to prove he was the best in the league at his role anymore, when you consider his role in the team last season was CM with the license to get forward to assist and score a few, he would probably be in the mid to lower half on table for that position I’m guessing. 

Just think were we could be if he had the ability to score 6-7 goals and assist 6-7 goals in his new position, others do I’m sure. 

I think we will let him go without to much of a fight in the knowledge that there are a lot better out there than him. 

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Gana is still the one offering the protection, but he’s asked to do it higher up the pitch, to try to win it back before it gets as far as Gomes. It’s just different from what we are used to seeing from our defence minded midfielders. We are used to seeing Carsley or Fellaini sitting behind the midfield, this is just more proactive rather than reactive. But again, this is about the managers tactics and not the ability of the players involved.

I really don’t think Marco is looking for Gana to make the impact in the opposition half with the ball, more without it. He needs Gomes to make the impact with the ball, after Gana wins it back. 

Stats don’t do it for me either, they only show you a small part of any play. Pienaar had rubbish stats, but was vital to how we played. 

I really don’t see many players who’s main job is winning the ball back scoring many goals though, I really don’t. If you know any I’m happy to take that.

i don’t think many people in football will agree there are so many better out there, and if there are would they want to come to Everton?

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50 minutes ago, StevO said:

really don’t think Marco is looking for Gana to make the impact in the opposition half with the ball, more without it. He needs Gomes to make the impact with the ball, after Gana wins it back. 

I do believe Silva expressed a different view to that on what he expects from Gana in his new central role, from his comments after the Cardiff game. 

I do sympathise with Silva after telling the world that that was what he wants to see more of him doing, running with the ball at defences and defence splitting passes, of which we’ve seen very little of since that game until the other day against Benin. 

I don’t remember him saying his job was to win the ball back and then pass it back to Gomes. 

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22 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I do believe Silva expressed a different view to that on what he expects from Gana in his new central role, from his comments after the Cardiff game. 

I do sympathise with Silva after telling the world that that was what he wants to see more of him doing, running with the ball at defences and defence splitting passes, of which we’ve seen very little of since that game until the other day against Benin. 

I don’t remember him saying his job was to win the ball back and then pass it back to Gomes. 

I think you read a snippet mate, he was actually praising Gana for that, just saying he would like to see it more. 

He then went on to continually say that he will do everything g to keep Gana.

Haha you drew me in again, well done twat!

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42 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I do believe Silva expressed a different view to that on what he expects from Gana in his new central role, from his comments after the Cardiff game. 

I do sympathise with Silva after telling the world that that was what he wants to see more of him doing, running with the ball at defences and defence splitting passes, of which we’ve seen very little of since that game until the other day against Benin. 

I don’t remember him saying his job was to win the ball back and then pass it back to Gomes. 

After a game against relegation elect he expected more going forward, but it’s clear to see what he expects of him just from watching us play. We don’t need Marco to tell us he expects Gana to win the ball back and pass it to Gomes, it’s a clear plan that happens every game. 

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6 hours ago, StevO said:

Gana is still the one offering the protection, but he’s asked to do it higher up the pitch, to try to win it back before it gets as far as Gomes. It’s just different from what we are used to seeing from our defence minded midfielders. We are used to seeing Carsley or Fellaini sitting behind the midfield, this is just more proactive rather than reactive. But again, this is about the managers tactics and not the ability of the players involved.

I really don’t think Marco is looking for Gana to make the impact in the opposition half with the ball, more without it. He needs Gomes to make the impact with the ball, after Gana wins it back. 

Stats don’t do it for me either, they only show you a small part of any play. Pienaar had rubbish stats, but was vital to how we played. 

I really don’t see many players who’s main job is winning the ball back scoring many goals though, I really don’t. If you know any I’m happy to take that.

i don’t think many people in football will agree there are so many better out there, and if there are would they want to come to Everton?

Exactly. Defensive doesn’t mean sit in front of the defence. In his case, it’s defend from the front. 

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Fwiw I dont think either player is tasked with being more attacking or defensive than the other. They both sit alongside eachother and play as a pair. Both able to get forward and both expected to do the defensive work. All the stats you will find in respect of average position will show that. Its also the same when Schneiderlin played. 

I also dont agree about Gana being asked to close more aggressively. Its happened for every manager he has played under, its just his natural tendancy. 

Its not like this is Fernandino for City with two clear players ahead of him. You couldnt have one pressing and the other not as you could easily play around it, and sometimes that is the problem! You could have the two pressing and one mopping up behind but not one side closing at the other not.

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On 13/07/2019 at 10:27, StevO said:

Gana is still the one offering the protection, but he’s asked to do it higher up the pitch, to try to win it back before it gets as far as Gomes. It’s just different from what we are used to seeing from our defence minded midfielders. We are used to seeing Carsley or Fellaini sitting behind the midfield, this is just more proactive rather than reactive. But again, this is about the managers tactics and not the ability of the players involved.

What other team does it this way? 

Proactive to me would mean he's anticipating the play, whereas reactive would be acting on the situation on hand. Gana falls in the second, he see the ball go left he chases it left. 

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On 13/07/2019 at 18:50, Bailey said:

Its not like this is Fernandino for City with two clear players ahead of him. You couldnt have one pressing and the other not as you could easily play around it, and sometimes that is the problem! You could have the two pressing and one mopping up behind but not one side closing at the other not.

With the set up they should be more similar to how we were with Arteta and Fellaini, or Barry and McCarthy. One dictates the play and the other box-to-box. That's how most 4411 tend to play. It's sort of how I see Gana play, he's the one further forward now often. It was clearer when Schneiderlin was the one sitting. 

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5 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What other team does it this way? 

Proactive to me would mean he's anticipating the play, whereas reactive would be acting on the situation on hand. Gana falls in the second, he see the ball go left he chases it left. 

Do other teams need to do it for it to be effective? I don’t want enough of other teams to see who deploys their midfield in the same way. But as I’ve said many times, you issue is with the tactic, not the player carrying out his instructions.

its proactive because it’s not sitting back and waiting until they get into our half before closing down. It’s chasing and pressing players in their own half, it’s not just one player doing it. The wingers do it, the forward does it, Gylfi and Gana do it, and the other five players sit back waiting for the break whilst holding position. 

If the ball goes left, the whole team shift left. That’s just basic team shape. 

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4 minutes ago, pete0 said:

With the set up they should be more similar to how we were with Arteta and Fellaini, or Barry and McCarthy. One dictates the play and the other box-to-box. That's how most 4411 tend to play. It's sort of how I see Gana play, he's the one further forward now often. It was clearer when Schneiderlin was the one sitting. 

We don’t play 4411 though, ask Marco and he will tell you he plays 433.

i don’t know why you would want them to play like another team does, or like we played maybe 8 years ago. The game evolves, coaches come up with new patterns and new tactics. 

Schneilderlins skill set is to sit back and mop up, he’s very very good at it. But it’s not what Marco is asking for. He’s asking for a disrupter to play along side his play maker in Gomes who will dictate the midfield. 

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4 minutes ago, StevO said:

Do other teams need to do it for it to be effective? I don’t want enough of other teams to see who deploys their midfield in the same way. But as I’ve said many times, you issue is with the tactic, not the player carrying out his instructions.

its proactive because it’s not sitting back and waiting until they get into our half before closing down. It’s chasing and pressing players in their own half, it’s not just one player doing it. The wingers do it, the forward does it, Gylfi and Gana do it, and the other five players sit back waiting for the break whilst holding position. 

If the ball goes left, the whole team shift left. That’s just basic team shape. 

For me it's more plausible that Gana isn't doing a good enough job, than Ronald Koeman inventing a new position and the next two managers to stick with it. 

Proactive: (of a person or action) creating or controlling a situation rather than just responding to it after it has happened

I don't see how Gana fits this. He sees the ball go one way, he goes for it. He's reacting to where the ball is. Proactive for me would be him anticipating where the ball is going and to start heading in the direction before it actually happens. 

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1 minute ago, pete0 said:

For me it's more plausible that Gana isn't doing a good enough job, than Ronald Koeman inventing a new position and the next two managers to stick with it. 

Proactive: (of a person or action) creating or controlling a situation rather than just responding to it after it has happened

I don't see how Gana fits this. He sees the ball go one way, he goes for it. He's reacting to where the ball is. Proactive for me would be him anticipating where the ball is going and to start heading in the direction before it actually happens. 

Koeman hasn’t done anything with him, Marco is the one making the high press a big part of his game plan. 

You can choose to see it as reactive if you like, I think pressing a player in his own half before he makes a forward play is being proactive. If he waited until the ball was played into our half and then react to the man in front of him I’d agree with you, but they don’t. Five men press high and early, before the play is made, that’s proactive. So from your definition, the “after it happened” if the ball being played into our half. That’s what they are proactively stopping.

If he anticipated the ball going left, and closed that man down and then it’s played right, how long would it take before you hand him out to dry for not anticipating the other way? 

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13 minutes ago, StevO said:

We don’t play 4411 though, ask Marco and he will tell you he plays 433.

i don’t know why you would want them to play like another team does, or like we played maybe 8 years ago. The game evolves, coaches come up with new patterns and new tactics. 

Schneilderlins skill set is to sit back and mop up, he’s very very good at it. But it’s not what Marco is asking for. He’s asking for a disrupter to play along side his play maker in Gomes who will dictate the midfield. 

The positional set up is almost identical. Sigurdssen is the closest to the striker. He's not sitting next to Gomes and Gana. Likewise the wingers get forward but no more than they did under Martinez (Koemans never had the pace too). Only major difference is the pace of play. Martinez and Koeman were both slower in the build up and not as one dimensional down the wing. 

The OS isn't showing the average positions for me but I'm sure it'll look more like 4411, from memory Sig is close and sometimes further forward than the striker, and Gana slightly a head of Gomes. Often with Digne close to Bernard much like the Pienaar Baines tandem. 

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19 minutes ago, pete0 said:

For me it's more plausible that Gana isn't doing a good enough job, than Ronald Koeman inventing a new position and the next two managers to stick with it. 

Proactive: (of a person or action) creating or controlling a situation rather than just responding to it after it has happened

I don't see how Gana fits this. He sees the ball go one way, he goes for it. He's reacting to where the ball is. Proactive for me would be him anticipating where the ball is going and to start heading in the direction before it actually happens. 

Interceptions.

No words needed now is there.

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4411, 433, 3511 or even 352, Silva has said he favours a 443 but we have witnessed many systems under him, surely the most important thing is that players are good enough to adapt to different formations and positions, the one player who has really impressed me is Richarlison, he seems to adapt to all systems and positions. 

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2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

4411, 433, 3511 or even 352, Silva has said he favours a 443 but we have witnessed many systems under him, surely the most important thing is that players are good enough to adapt to different formations and positions, the one player who has really impressed me is Richarlison, he seems to adapt to all systems and positions. 

That was a bit off field I know, but hey anything the stops the Gana wars. 

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33 minutes ago, StevO said:

We don’t play 4411 though, ask Marco and he will tell you he plays 433.

i don’t know why you would want them to play like another team does, or like we played maybe 8 years ago. The game evolves, coaches come up with new patterns and new tactics. 

Schneilderlins skill set is to sit back and mop up, he’s very very good at it. But it’s not what Marco is asking for. He’s asking for a disrupter to play along side his play maker in Gomes who will dictate the midfield. 

The positional set up is almost identical. Sigurdssen is the closest to the striker. He's not sitting next to Gomes and Gana. Likewise the wingers get forward but no more than they did under Martinez (Koemans never had the pace too). Only major difference is the pace of play. Martinez and Koeman were both slower in the build up and not as one dimensional down the wing. 

The OS isn't showing the average positions for me but I'm sure it'll look more like 4411, from memory Sig is close and sometimes further forward than the striker, and Gana slightly a head of Gomes. Often with Digne close to Bernard much like the Pienaar Baines tandem. 

50s in Fulham start an attack. It finished with a goal after Gana reacts to the ball on 55s and leaves his man/a big hole in midfield. There's a situation like this in almost every game, doesn't always result in a goal conceded but it's one of the main reason me and a few others are so adamant he's not good enough. 

https://youtu.be/GRqD48MQMpY

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5 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Interceptions.

No words needed now is there.

Thank God for that I don’t think I could handle another ineligible statement. ☝️

 

3 minutes ago, pete0 said:

The positional set up is almost identical. Sigurdssen is the closest to the striker. He's not sitting next to Gomes and Gana. Likewise the wingers get forward but no more than they did under Martinez (Koemans never had the pace too). Only major difference is the pace of play. Martinez and Koeman were both slower in the build up and not as one dimensional down the wing. 

The OS isn't showing the average positions for me but I'm sure it'll look more like 4411, from memory Sig is close and sometimes further forward than the striker, and Gana slightly a head of Gomes. Often with Digne close to Bernard much like the Pienaar Baines tandem. 

50s in Fulham start an attack. It finished with a goal after Gana reacts to the ball on 55s and leaves his man/a big hole in midfield. There's a situation like this in almost every game, doesn't always result in a goal conceded but it's one of the main reason me and a few others are so adamant he's not good enough. 

https://youtu.be/GRqD48MQMpY

Like I said Pete we have played various systems and you are right, but he does favour 433, but he has played 5 at the back on 4 or 5 occasions. 

I don’t understand why some managers come out with statements like that, just go with what you feel is right for each game. 

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7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Thank God for that I don’t think I could handle another ineligible statement. ☝️

 

Like I said Pete we have played various systems and you are right, but he does favour 433, but he has played 5 at the back on 4 or 5 occasions. 

I don’t understand why some managers come out with statements like that, just go with what you feel is right for each game. 

If you've got an AM you're not playing 433. There's no way anyone would describe Bernard as a left forward either, we play the overlap on the left. He's either a winger or a left midfielder. Both our wings have a full defensive duty, you see them defending next to the fullbacks. 

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43 minutes ago, pete0 said:

The positional set up is almost identical. Sigurdssen is the closest to the striker. He's not sitting next to Gomes and Gana. Likewise the wingers get forward but no more than they did under Martinez (Koemans never had the pace too). Only major difference is the pace of play. Martinez and Koeman were both slower in the build up and not as one dimensional down the wing. 

The OS isn't showing the average positions for me but I'm sure it'll look more like 4411, from memory Sig is close and sometimes further forward than the striker, and Gana slightly a head of Gomes. Often with Digne close to Bernard much like the Pienaar Baines tandem. 

Martinez and Koeman will also tell you they played 433. 

It’s not about heat maps or average positions, it’s about the managers game plan. 

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10 minutes ago, pete0 said:

If you've got an AM you're not playing 433. There's no way anyone would describe Bernard as a left forward either, we play the overlap on the left. He's either a winger or a left midfielder. Both our wings have a full defensive duty, you see them defending next to the fullbacks. 

Forget any idea of AM, CM, DM, it’s much more fluid than that on the pitch. This isn’t Football Manager, players have various responsibilities and tactics to play out in different parts of the pitch. The manager will more than likely tell you that Gomes, Gylfi and Gana all play in the middle, they just have different responsibilities. 

There is no difference between a left winger and a left forward, the same as there is no difference between a left back and a left wing back. The difference is in what they are asked to do by the manager, that’s all.

we seem to want to complicate the position and they have to be put into a certain category or position, a manager of an elite level football team won’t give two shits about if a player is an AM, or CM, or DM. They’ll just be a midfielder in the managers eyes. Football is a simple game, until people complicate it. 

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6 minutes ago, StevO said:

Forget any idea of AM, CM, DM, it’s much more fluid than that on the pitch. This isn’t Football Manager, players have various responsibilities and tactics to play out in different parts of the pitch. The manager will more than likely tell you that Gomes, Gylfi and Gana all play in the middle, they just have different responsibilities. 

There is no difference between a left winger and a left forward, the same as there is no difference between a left back and a left wing back. The difference is in what they are asked to do by the manager, that’s all.

we seem to want to complicate the position and they have to be put into a certain category or position, a manager of an elite level football team won’t give two shits about if a player is an AM, or CM, or DM. They’ll just be a midfielder in the managers eyes. Football is a simple game, until people complicate it. 

Exactly they all have different roles, those roles are then shoehorned into terms depending on their position and responsibilitues, such as attacking midfielder, making it easier to discuss than the centre midfielder who's more advanced than the other two centre midfielders, that would be madness. Sigurdssen is clearly an AM he's more advanced than the two behind him and his responsibility is pressing from the front. Sigurdssen isn't rotating with Gana and Gomes, he might on the rare occasion slot in if ones caught forward but we're not playing total football. Our players all have their own positions. You can then add a tag to their position such as Gomes may be referred to as a ball playing DM, nothing to do with football manager it's just an easy quick way to say he sits and dictates play. His role, his position. 

Difference between a left wing back and a left back is they former gets forward more they have more responsibility to attack. Walcott at times played as a right forward for us when usually when we were winning, he'd stick forward but I can't think of a single game tactically that we went 433. 

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32 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Exactly they all have different roles, those roles are then shoehorned into terms depending on their position and responsibilitues, such as attacking midfielder, making it easier to discuss than the centre midfielder who's more advanced than the other two centre midfielders, that would be madness. Sigurdssen is clearly an AM he's more advanced than the two behind him and his responsibility is pressing from the front. Sigurdssen isn't rotating with Gana and Gomes, he might on the rare occasion slot in if ones caught forward but we're not playing total football. Our players all have their own positions. You can then add a tag to their position such as Gomes may be referred to as a ball playing DM, nothing to do with football manager it's just an easy quick way to say he sits and dictates play. His role, his position. 

Difference between a left wing back and a left back is they former gets forward more they have more responsibility to attack. Walcott at times played as a right forward for us when usually when we were winning, he'd stick forward but I can't think of a single game tactically that we went 433. 

Well that’s been fun, I disagree, but now I want to get a shower and go to bed. 

Sweet dreams Pete. 

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We defend more akin to a 442 in my opinion as both DCL and Siggy would start high up the pitch but as StevO said somewhere its all largely irrelevant. 

You have both mentioned players and their responsibilities but all I see is the natural differences in the players. If we look at Gana, Gomes and Morgan in those positions, Gana is the one more likely to naturally press, Gomes is more situational and Morgan is naturally suited to sitting a little more. In the same situation they are all expected to do the same thing, whether it be the left channel, right channel or straight down the middle. You cant have say Gana rushing out of position if Gomes is stuck upfield with no cover in midfield. Likewise you cant have Schneiderlin sitting if the rest of the side is pressing and his man is left in acres of space to play through the press. 

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1 hour ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Does Gana take a break after AFCON or come straight back in? Any break would surely rule him out to start the season as he wouldn't be back until a week before the season starts. 

Has to have some sort of a break, interesting to see how long it'll be; think three weeks will be the bare minimum.

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'DELPH NO GUEYE REPLACEMENT' 

Everton boss Marco Silva has insisted the signing of Fabian Delphfrom Manchester City does not mean Idrissa Gueye is set to leave the club.

Delph joined on a three-year deal for a fee believed to be £9m on Tuesdayand is expected to compete for a midfield berth at Goodison Park after spending much of the end of his time at City as a makeshift left-back.

"Gana (Gueye) is still our player and, of course, if we lose Gana then we have to sign a player to replace him because you are talking about one player playing almost all of the games in our squad," Silva said.

"If it will happen then we have to replace him, it is not because we have signed Fabian Delph."

 

The fact he says 'if we lose Gana' means it's likely to happen. He is one of my favorite players in the squad, however i think selling to PSG is best for EFC and the player.  

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