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Matt

Cuco Martina

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Yeah, it's tough to say if Kenny is ready or not, but I think I'd prefer to give him a chance over Cuco.

 

...or if they split time then that would be okay too. I just don't want to stop the development of our young players (and for him to get pushed even further down the pecking order once Coleman is back).

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Holgate is struggling at U-21 level.

 

Back up to Kenny, not in the way of, i'm OK with it. Although Cuco is shite (for a prem footballer).

I thought he played really well at the U21 championships, he was at fault for 2 of the goals but they were fantastic headers and he should have had help. He is more of a CB so he needs game time there. I think he will be a quality player for us if he gets the game time.

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I thought he played really well at the U21 championships, he was at fault for 2 of the goals but they were fantastic headers and he should have had help. He is more of a CB so he needs game time there. I think he will be a quality player for us if he gets the game time.

Yeah thought he looks alright

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I'd rather go to Soton for Cedric, the player that kept him out the team.

Anyone in their right mind would but he'd cost £20m plus when we've got one of the best right backs in the country in Coleman already, who'll be back in the new year and a player who has earned a shot at a first team spot after a great season in the u23s and his World Cup performances in Kenny... Martina would be very much a squad player. Soares would be a key 1st team signing in a position which we're quite well stocked in.

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No no no. Don't buy back ups, don't buy squad players. If they aren't good enough to start week in week out then they shouldn't be brought in.

Ok so we'll have either 11 players, then, or a bunch of players who aren't happy here because they know they should be starting somewhere else. That's not how it works.

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No no no. Don't buy back ups, don't buy squad players. If they aren't good enough to start week in week out then they shouldn't be brought in.

Illogical mate, we aren't Barcelona who can have decent talent sat on their arse and keep them happy

 

We need subs/squad players and it's in an area we will hopefully be fine in soon enough once Coleman comes back and Kenny is up to speed

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Ok so we'll have either 11 players, then, or a bunch of players who aren't happy here because they know they should be starting somewhere else. That's not how it works.

Yeh that's exactly how it works. Look at Mirallas or McCarthy. We're brought into the first team, now they may or may not be surplus and may want to leave if they aren't playing because someone else has come in ahead of them.

 

Martinez taught us to not buy back ups. It doesn't work.

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Illogical mate, we aren't Barcelona who can have decent talent sat on their arse and keep them happy

 

We need subs/squad players and it's in an area we will hopefully be fine in soon enough once Coleman comes back and Kenny is up to speed

You are being illogical. Why buy players who aren't deemed good enough to play week in week out in the number 1 spot? How does that push the current number 1? Why would you want players who have the mentality that they are happy to be on the bench?

 

Always buy either players to replace the first teamers or youngsters who can make the grade with time. Otherwise you are reducing the quality of the pool of players and the mentality of the group.

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I agree with Bailey. We're looking at the next step.

 

And the next step is to have players compete in every position. I'm sick of us having players that don't need to perform. Let them earn their place.

 

 

Yep. I'm down with Bailey on this one.

 

We don't need to buy squad fillers anymore...we have a capable U23 set up that can step in when needed.

 

Buy as much quality as we can...keep it as competitive as possible.

 

 

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You are being illogical. Why buy players who aren't deemed good enough to play week in week out in the number 1 spot? How does that push the current number 1? Why would you want players who have the mentality that they are happy to be on the bench?

 

Always buy either players to replace the first teamers or youngsters who can make the grade with time. Otherwise you are reducing the quality of the pool of players and the mentality of the group.

No I'm not and as said we are not Barcalona or a team that can buy those kinds of players and them be happy to play second fiddle

 

Do you think we are a side that can buy a player equal or better than say Baines then him or them be happy to fight it out each week whilst paying big wages?

 

I'd love to be able to do it Bailey as we all would but as Steve and Mark say it's a damn sight easier said than done and we don't have the financial clout and draw... It's being realistic

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No I'm not and as said we are not Barcalona or a team that can buy those kinds of players and them be happy to play second fiddle

 

Do you think we are a side that can buy a player equal or better than say Baines then him or them be happy to fight it out each week whilst paying big wages?

 

I'd love to be able to do it Bailey as we all would but as Steve and Mark say it's a damn sight easier said than done and we don't have the financial clout and draw... It's being realistic

I didn't say it was easy to do but it should always be the aim.

 

In reality the Baines situation is an easy one as we DO need a top class replacement for Baines. We maybe have a year left to bed someone in. Either a young lad comes in with the aim that he is ready this time next year, or you buy someone to relegate Baines to the bench and Baines becomes the understudy.

 

Why would you buy or pay wages to someone not as good as Baines, who will never be better than the current Baines when you want to win as many games of football as you can?

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I didn't say it was easy to do but it should always be the aim.

 

In reality the Baines situation is an easy one as we DO need a top class replacement for Baines. We maybe have a year left to bed someone in. Either a young lad comes in with the aim that he is ready this time next year, or you buy someone to relegate Baines to the bench and Baines becomes the understudy.

 

Why would you buy or pay wages to someone not as good as Baines, who will never be better than the current Baines when you want to win as many games of football as you can?

He was just an example, I wouldn't want to but it's a likely reality

 

Our RB situation is an different case as we have Kenny coming through and Coleman being injured so we can't rely on Kenny to play so many games off the bat it would be daft to slash a large sum on a RB to have potentially three vying for one spot

 

Realistically it won't happen hence to first response and I'll bet you a large wedge it won't anytime soon

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I'm all for buying 1st teamers in priority positions when needed but this is different - Martina will be no more than a stop gap. His signing is likely to give Kenny more opportunities and not cause a needless situation when Coleman returns from injury. Why spend silly sums of money on a player who in reality will only have a limited career here? I'd personally rather use the £20m+ it would cost for a right back of Coleman's quality to spend on another goal scorer or centre back - positions we are lacking.

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Yeh that's exactly how it works. Look at Mirallas or McCarthy. We're brought into the first team, now they may or may not be surplus and may want to leave if they aren't playing because someone else has come in ahead of them.

 

Martinez taught us to not buy back ups. It doesn't work.

No team in the Prem is stocked with starters on their bench. Even Barcelona, Bayern, Real Madrid and Napoli have guys who fill roles. We're talking about professional footballer egos here. And the two guys you mention concede my point. They're not happy to sit on the bench, therefore don't play well and don't fulfill their roles when they come on as subs.

 

Team chemistry matters. People fulfill the roles that they've been assigned. You can't buy a bunch of top players, tell them they're all going to start, sit half of them and still win games. That is decisively not how it works.

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I might be wrong but I think the point is that you don't 'aim' to buy a squad filler as such, you 'aim' for the highest quality possible. You don't need 22 of the highest quality, but get maybe 15 or 16.

 

This is quite a big failure in the Premiership for me. Teams buy in a few of 'squad fillers' then don't give any younger lads a chance. Clubs have already spent a fortune nurturing the young lads, why then fill their squad place with a relatively cheap import who can't do any better of a job than the young lad?

 

That's my angle anyway.

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I might be wrong but I think the point is that you don't 'aim' to buy a squad filler as such, you 'aim' for the highest quality possible. You don't need 22 of the highest quality, but get maybe 15 or 16.

 

This is quite a big failure in the Premiership for me. Teams buy in a few of 'squad fillers' then don't give any younger lads a chance. Clubs have already spent a fortune nurturing the young lads, why then fill their squad place with a relatively cheap import who can't do any better of a job than the young lad?

 

That's my angle anyway.

I agree with that completely. But 15 or 16 egos are easier to satisfy than 30. Those extra 4 or 5 players are players who still start regularly in a squad with European competition.

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I agree with that completely. But 15 or 16 egos are easier to satisfy than 30. Those extra 4 or 5 players are players who still start regularly in a squad with European competition.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting as many as 30. That would be hard to handle.

 

At the same time, I worry about the mentality of senior players who would join but be happy to sit on the bench as their 'role'. Surely every player who joins is told the have an equal chance to start?

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I might be wrong but I think the point is that you don't 'aim' to buy a squad filler as such, you 'aim' for the highest quality possible. You don't need 22 of the highest quality, but get maybe 15 or 16.

 

This is quite a big failure in the Premiership for me. Teams buy in a few of 'squad fillers' then don't give any younger lads a chance. Clubs have already spent a fortune nurturing the young lads, why then fill their squad place with a relatively cheap import who can't do any better of a job than the young lad?

 

That's my angle anyway.

Exactly the point Newty.

 

Going back on point more with Coleman, I wouldn't be confident that he is going to come back the same player.

 

I think we need to approach the season ahead with the decision as to whether Kenny is or isn't good enough. If he isn't, we need to get someone in. If he is then stick with him and Holgate can fill in if needed.

 

In some ways the Europa will help this year because Koeman will see him competitively for a few games before the window closes.

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No team in the Prem is stocked with starters on their bench. Even Barcelona, Bayern, Real Madrid and Napoli have guys who fill roles. We're talking about professional footballer egos here. And the two guys you mention concede my point. They're not happy to sit on the bench, therefore don't play well and don't fulfill their roles when they come on as subs.

 

Team chemistry matters. People fulfill the roles that they've been assigned. You can't buy a bunch of top players, tell them they're all going to start, sit half of them and still win games. That is decisively not how it works.

I didn't say that any team should be filled with stars from 1 to 30. The point is don't buy someone who is happy to sit on the bench and pick up a wage. As I mention in my post above. You either trust Kenny or you get a starter in, because you don't know when or how Coleman will come back.

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I'm not sure anyone is suggesting as many as 30. That would be hard to handle.

 

At the same time, I worry about the mentality of senior players who would join but be happy to sit on the bench as their 'role'. Surely every player who joins is told the have an equal chance to start?

I don't think so. Look at Tottenham's purchase of Janssen. Do you think he was told he'd have an equal chance of starting as Harry Kane? Or that he legitimately thought he had a chance of usurping his starting role? No. He comes in, knows he'll be played as a sub, hopes he performs and gets a chance to play alongside him or gets a good run of matches if Kane misses out due to injury. And that from a highly coveted striker.

 

Players understand when they come in to a big club that they'll have to fight hard to earn a starting role unless told otherwise. Some are content with that because of age (young or old), ability, return from injury or a bad spell at another club. It's basic logic. A squad must be bigger than 11 players; therefore, not everyone will start. Players understand that, too.

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Realistically, any RB who comes to Everton knows that we extended Coleman's contract after his injury. They'll know we value him and they'll know that unless they are world-beating in their time as a fill-in, that the starting job will be his when he returns. They'll also know we have a promising young RB in Kenny who performed incredibly well for England's U20s. We won't be signing any top RBs because footballers aren't that naive. Any RB we do sign will be content to fill a role and hope to perform as well as they can to make the manager's decision tougher when Coleman is healthy.

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I don't think so. Look at Tottenham's purchase of Janssen. Do you think he was told he'd have an equal chance of starting as Harry Kane? Or that he legitimately thought he had a chance of usurping his starting role? No. He comes in, knows he'll be played as a sub, hopes he performs and gets a chance to play alongside him or gets a good run of matches if Kane misses out due to injury. And that from a highly coveted striker.

 

Players understand when they come in to a big club that they'll have to fight hard to earn a starting role unless told otherwise. Some are content with that because of age (young or old), ability, return from injury or a bad spell at another club. It's basic logic. A squad must be bigger than 11 players; therefore, not everyone will start. Players understand that, too.

Nah, I'm not so sure buddy. I can't be convinced that Janssen (as the example here, many other like him I guess) would be happy to be a sub as such. A number of clubs would have been after him, if I remember, he was hot property. I'm not convinced he'd happily settle for a bench role when those talks where taking place...I mean, it goes against the grain that would have made him reach that level in the first place.

 

It's a funny one really. Only players like this really know. But I'd be pretty sure that they believed they could compete for that starting place. You've got to have that belief in you to make it to this level??? I doubt very much he goes from being a guaranteed starter to a guaranteed sub feeling all cobtent.

 

Although reading what you are typing, we are kind of arguing the same point but coming at it from opposite directions...which happens a lot on here!!!

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Nah, I'm not so sure buddy. I can't be convinced that Janssen (as the example here, many other like him I guess) would be happy to be a sub as such. A number of clubs would have been after him, if I remember, he was hot property. I'm not convinced he'd happily settle for a bench role when those talks where taking place...I mean, it goes against the grain that would have made him reach that level in the first place.

 

It's a funny one really. Only players like this really know. But I'd be pretty sure that they believed they could compete for that starting place. You've got to have that belief in you to make it to this level??? I doubt very much he goes from being a guaranteed starter to a guaranteed sub feeling all cobtent.

 

Although reading what you are typing, we are kind of arguing the same point but coming at it from opposite directions...which happens a lot on here!!!

I think you're nailed on with the last paragraph. I'm not saying players are happy or content to sit on the bench. I'm saying they know that's their role and they're willing to take on that role knowing they're either playing for a bigger club than the one they came from, or they're biding time for a bigger opportunity.

 

From the horse's mouth: "As a young player I had to compete with Harry Kane - the top scorer of the Premier League - arguably the toughest league in the world, and a striker who is performing remains in the team."

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aaron might be time to let your mate know he's a bullshitter. they would have signed him by now if he had the physical.

Or not :dry: . He's gone off what his mate told him, he then passed on the info to me and I've done the same on here. He isn't the type to make shit up, especially on shite players.

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Or not :dry: . He's gone off what his mate told him, he then passed on the info to me and I've done the same on here. He isn't the type to make shit up, especially on shite players.

Always the way mate- best saying nothing. No one here claims to be itk but you get told something and pass it on to try and give others the buzz - it falls through and you're a bullshitter or your mate is.

 

I appreciate the nod on anyway.

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Or not :dry: . He's gone off what his mate told him, he then passed on the info to me and I've done the same on here. He isn't the type to make shit up, especially on shite players.

 

mate of a mate? lol just having a go at you aaron, no one is upset we didn't sign him :rofl:

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Hope not he's pacey but has no defensive qualities

 

won't disagree. also holgate is on the roster and he plays there. i think ron put priorities to CB, GK, klaassen and front 3 and is ok with baines/mori and coleman/holgate for our fullbacks/wing backs. if there is one position that is de-valued in his system i think it's the FB/WB position. so i don't think he's worried about it.

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