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johnh

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Mad that that party ever got in after Thatcher. Half the county are scum bags and/or morons. What policies do they actually have to justify the cruelty? What is actually now better thanks to them? Seriously who supports this shit? 

- let's lower human rights and wages

- NHS, fuck that it helps poor people live too long. 

- talking of poor people let's starve them. That'll teach them for being poor

 

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On 04/04/2020 at 04:29, MikeO said:

For now if these threads get abusive again they'll be closed.

 

13 hours ago, MikeO said:

Watching "Brassed Off" (brilliant film) and just got to this bit.

Tories are psychopaths.mov

 

 

12 hours ago, pete0 said:

Mad that that party ever got in after Thatcher. Half the county are scum bags and/or morons. What policies do they actually have to justify the cruelty? What is actually now better thanks to them? Seriously who supports this shit? 

As a species we really have come a long way in our tolerance and acceptance of people who don't look like us, but fuck me have we got a way to go with people who don't think like us.

I have no doubt that if we survive the coming multapocalypses this sort of myopic political intolerance will be viewed as something akin to the way we look at racism now. For now though the best argument against democracy must surely be 5 minutes reading this thread.

At lease we chased off the last conservatives though hey, wank on fellas!

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12 minutes ago, Chach said:

 

 

As a species we really have come a long way in our tolerance and acceptance of people who don't look like us, but fuck me have we got a way to go with people who don't think like us.

I have no doubt that if we survive the coming multapocalypses this sort of myopic political intolerance will be viewed as something akin to the way we look at racism now. For now though the best argument against democracy must surely be 5 minutes reading this thread.

At lease we chased off the last conservatives though hey, wank on fellas!

I'd say history is the best argument against democracy. Please feel free to explain how it is perfectly fine to push fear and lies to get into power though. Or better yet to into hiding again after me calling you out last time. Still waiting for a response by the way. 

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14 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I'd say history is the best argument against democracy. Please feel free to explain how it is perfectly fine to push fear and lies to get into power though. Or better yet to into hiding again after me calling you out last time. Still waiting for a response by the way. 

I don't engage with you Pete because you're not an honest interlocutor. Ironically with all your anti-conservative ranting, from what I've seen from you on here you don't even believe in liberal values and spout more hate than the people you accuse of the same thing.

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31 minutes ago, Chach said:

I don't engage with you Pete because you're not an honest interlocutor. Ironically with all your anti-conservative ranting, from what I've seen from you on here you don't even believe in liberal values and spout more hate than the people you accuse of the same thing.

You don't engage? What do you call this.. Oh you mean you don't engage when you can't defend your fascist cruel values.. Oh okay. 

Again with your lies. Quote were I have been dishonest or man up and apologise. 

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2 minutes ago, pete0 said:

You don't engage? What do you call this.. Oh you mean you don't engage when you can't defend your fascist cruel values.. Oh okay. 

Again with your lies. Quote were I have been dishonest or man up and apologise. 

Its all there in black and white in the other thread for anyone to read, Pete.

You posted an article by a left wing think tank arguing that the government didn't spend enough money making people aware that their poor lifestyle choices could lead to early death and then peddled that as evidence that the government were analogous to murderers. I pointed the fallacious nature of the argument, you went mental.

I made the point not to say that left wing think tanks shouldn't be making those arguments, but that the other side of the aisle have a perfectly reasonable counter argument that people should also take some responsibility for their own health and that it might not be the taxpayers job to fund everything that your caring heart desires and that not telling people not to smoke is not the same as giving them lung cancer.

You then went off half cocked demanding evidence that they hadn't murdered people with their outrageous lack of spending which was where your dishonesty increased to the point you didn't deserve a response. I predict we'll get somewhere close to that position with your next post.

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12 minutes ago, Chach said:

Its all there in black and white in the other thread for anyone to read, Pete.

You posted an article by a left wing think tank arguing that the government didn't spend enough money making people aware that their poor lifestyle choices could lead to early death and then peddled that as evidence that the government were analogous to murderers. I pointed the fallacious nature of the argument, you went mental.

I made the point not to say that left wing think tanks shouldn't be making those arguments, but that the other side of the aisle have a perfectly reasonable counter argument that people should also take some responsibility for their own health and that it might not be the taxpayers job to fund everything that your caring heart desires and that not telling people not to smoke is not the same as giving them lung cancer.

You then went off half cocked demanding evidence that they hadn't murdered people with their outrageous lack of spending which was where your dishonesty increased to the point you didn't deserve a response. I predict we'll get somewhere close to that position with your next post.

Went mental, expand, better yet quote it and prove it. Likewise quote me and respond to my points. 

As for the lying accusation, highlight it. If not apologise. 

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

As a species we really have come a long way in our tolerance and acceptance of people who don't look like us, but fuck me have we got a way to go with people who don't think like us.

Couldn't agree more - well put!

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4 minutes ago, Formby said:

Couldn't agree more - well put!

So we should be understanding that people think differently for example rapists? That was a typo, was meant to be racists but I've left it as it reinforces the points more so. 

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37 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Went mental, expand, better yet quote it and prove it. Likewise quote me and respond to my points. 

As for the lying accusation, highlight it. If not apologise. 

Its all there in black and white in the other thread for anyone to read, Pete.

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15 minutes ago, pete0 said:

So we should be understanding that people think differently for example rapists? That was a typo, was meant to be racists but I've left it as it reinforces the points more so. 

You're getting warm Petey, if someone is promoting an idea that they are superior to another group of people on the basis of immutable characteristics then that person is a racist and you can comfortably refer to them as such, voting for Brexit on the other hand or being concerned that immigration isn't all upside for everyone is not necessarily racist.

Being pro rape people is not a political viewpoint that anyone holds in polite society and you thinking it reinforces the point demonstrates how muddy your thinking is.

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34 minutes ago, pete0 said:

So we should be understanding that people think differently for example rapists? That was a typo, was meant to be racists but I've left it as it reinforces the points more so. 

Yes, I do think we should be more understanding of the way people think. 

You have just dismissed half the country as scumbags and morons, presumably because they don't think like you. I'm not sure whether you really think that, but I can't see it's a helpful opinion.

The extreme examples you gave would not get tolerance and acceptance - I am sure there are hundreds of other crimes and misdemeanours which would be equally reprehensible. I understood Chach's comment to have a more general application - political discourse, social discourse - and welcomed it.

 

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

Its all there in black and white in the other thread for anyone to read, Pete.

If it's there quote it, especially don't remember you answering at the eighth time of asking. If it's not there then apologise for being the manipulative liar you are. 

1 hour ago, Chach said:

You're getting warm Petey, if someone is promoting an idea that they are superior to another group of people on the basis of immutable characteristics then that person is a racist and you can comfortably refer to them as such, voting for Brexit on the other hand or being concerned that immigration isn't all upside for everyone is not necessarily racist.

Being pro rape people is not a political viewpoint that anyone holds in polite society and you thinking it reinforces the point demonstrates how muddy your thinking is.

If you're concerned about a person coming into the country and the only basis you have for being concerned is that they weren't born here then yea that racist/fascist. 

What brexit policy did you agree with?

What immigration policy did you disagree with, and why? 

What do you mean by polite society? 

Who said anything about pro rape? You said we should accept people think differently. Rapist, racist, and tories all think differently to me. Why should I tolerate any of them, they all fall into the same bracket that they put their own selfish needs a head of the overall well being of everyone. 

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55 minutes ago, Formby said:

Yes, I do think we should be more understanding of the way people think. 

You have just dismissed half the country as scumbags and morons, presumably because they don't think like you. I'm not sure whether you really think that, but I can't see it's a helpful opinion.

The extreme examples you gave would not get tolerance and acceptance - I am sure there are hundreds of other crimes and misdemeanours which would be equally reprehensible. I understood Chach's comment to have a more general application - political discourse, social discourse - and welcomed it.

 

I can sympathise that people can't control what they think but end of the day you should know right from wrong. If you you're aware you're thoughts are bad then you should be also aware that it's wrong and act accordingly. 

They're scumbags/morons for voting selfishly. What good has the tory party done in the last decade? 

Your ethics are flawed if you tolerate the government staving children and purposesly neglecting the health care system. What's the difference between needless deaths and murder? 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

I can sympathise that people can't control what they think but end of the day you should know right from wrong. If you you're aware you're thoughts are bad then you should be also aware that it's wrong and act accordingly. 

They're scumbags/morons for voting selfishly. What good has the tory party done in the last decade? 

Your ethics are flawed if you tolerate the government staving children and purposesly neglecting the health care system. What's the difference between needless deaths and murder? 

There are many moral and ethical issues which are so divisive that really there is no right and wrong - despite either side claiming there is. It's just differing opinions. In those instances, you can't be aware your thoughts are bad or that your thoughts are good. I think if you vote Conservative or you vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, you have a reason for doing so, and I'm guessing most aren't scumbags or morons (certainly not 50% of the population), despite many of the policies having dire outcomes. They may be voting for purely selfish reasons, though.

I could argue that you have flawed ethics if you eat meat (I am vegan) but I would not call you a scumbag or a moron for doing so, despite my very strong personal opinion about it.  I was brought up In Northern Ireland in the seventies, where really terrible things happened. I was asked to straddle the divide between Protestants and Catholics when I belonged to neither group. The only solution to that conflict was tolerance and acceptance. Any schism between Conservative and Labour ideology is just polite conversation compared to the events of that time and to other brutal conflicts round the world.    

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2 hours ago, Formby said:

There are many moral and ethical issues which are so divisive that really there is no right and wrong - despite either side claiming there is. It's just differing opinions. In those instances, you can't be aware your thoughts are bad or that your thoughts are good. I think if you vote Conservative or you vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, you have a reason for doing so, and I'm guessing most aren't scumbags or morons (certainly not 50% of the population), despite many of the policies having dire outcomes. They may be voting for purely selfish reasons, though.

What right reason is there for voting tory that outweighs the increase in needless deaths and poverty. As far as I'm convener they are literally starving children and killing people with their policy. The majority of voters must be aware of this so they are scumbags, those not aware are morons. 

I could argue that you have flawed ethics if you eat meat (I am vegan) but I would not call you a scumbag or a moron for doing so, despite my very strong personal opinion about it.  I was brought up In Northern Ireland in the seventies, where really terrible things happened. I was asked to straddle the divide between Protestants and Catholics when I belonged to neither group. The only solution to that conflict was tolerance and acceptance. Any schism between Conservative and Labour ideology is just polite conversation compared to the events of that time and to other brutal conflicts round the world.  

Don't see how that's relevant. You can make strong arguments either way as there's pluses and minuses to whether vegan is friendlier, plants are living things to and a lot of produce is worse for the environment. I don't see any strong evidence that demonstrates how the deaths and misery caused by tory policy is justified. The only ones benefiting are the rich and it's at the expense of everyone else. 

 

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11 hours ago, Chach said:

 

 

As a species we really have come a long way in our tolerance and acceptance of people who don't look like us, but fuck me have we got a way to go with people who don't think like us.

I have no doubt that if we survive the coming multapocalypses this sort of myopic political intolerance will be viewed as something akin to the way we look at racism now. For now though the best argument against democracy must surely be 5 minutes reading this thread.

At lease we chased off the last conservatives though hey, wank on fellas!

Chach you are part of the problem even though you think you know the answers you don’t stop adding to the argument against democracy. 
Who these last conservatives are that were chased off I’m not sure, but let’s not forget this forum is for Evertonian’s to discuss matters of Everton FC, these other threads are there if you wish to use them more as a sideline, but there are the odd few who only want to engage in the political threads and when they fallout with someone or there views are challenged some throw the towel in and leave. 
Personally when I’ve had an argument a slap on the wrist or whatever in the political threads, I still engage in the Everton threads because that’s what I’m on this forum for, for me those that have left because of there politics and are here just because of there politics aren’t a loss no matter what there political persuasion. 
COYB and not the Tory type 😉

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32 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Chach you are part of the problem even though you think you know the answers you don’t stop adding to the argument against democracy. 
Who these last conservatives are that were chased off I’m not sure, but let’s not forget this forum is for Evertonian’s to discuss matters of Everton FC, these other threads are there if you wish to use them more as a sideline, but there are the odd few who only want to engage in the political threads and when they fallout with someone or there views are challenged some throw the towel in and leave. 
Personally when I’ve had an argument a slap on the wrist or whatever in the political threads, I still engage in the Everton threads because that’s what I’m on this forum for, for me those that have left because of there politics and are here just because of there politics aren’t a loss no matter what there political persuasion. 
COYB and not the Tory type 😉

What you don't highlight though Palfy is that we are ALL Toffee's on here, which, as you rightly say, is what the website is all about.  Even on a non-football thread, I don't expect to be called a Nazi and a murderer.  When I first joined this website I thought I had found the holy grail.  It was brilliant.  Unfortunately and particularly since Brexit, it has deteriorated.  The Mod's have no balls and let anything go - as long as it fits in with their political views.  The only critical post by a Mod that I have seen, was to RPG and his post didn't accuse anyone of being a Nazi or a murderer.  

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

What you don't highlight though Palfy is that we are ALL Toffee's on here, which, as you rightly say, is what the website is all about.  Even on a non-football thread, I don't expect to be called a Nazi and a murderer.  When I first joined this website I thought I had found the holy grail.  It was brilliant.  Unfortunately and particularly since Brexit, it has deteriorated.  The Mod's have no balls and let anything go - as long as it fits in with their political views.  The only critical post by a Mod that I have seen, was to RPG and his post didn't accuse anyone of being a Nazi or a murderer.  

The thing is John we don’t get the magnitude of the size of Brexit on regular basis, it’s going to cause deep divisions in all walks of society, even politicians were calling other politicians racists it wasn’t just owned by this forum. 
I will be honest with you I have and had no sympathy for RPG he gave as good as he got. 
What happened to the old adage of your vote is your business, only now everyone wants the whole world to know who they voted for and why, and if you’re going to put your head above the parapet in this world of social media I think you have to be prepared to possibly get it shot off. 

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22 hours ago, pete0 said:

If it's there quote it, especially don't remember you answering at the eighth time of asking. If it's not there then apologise for being the manipulative liar you are. 

If you're concerned about a person coming into the country and the only basis you have for being concerned is that they weren't born here then yea that racist/fascist. 

What brexit policy did you agree with?

What immigration policy did you disagree with, and why? 

What do you mean by polite society? 

Who said anything about pro rape? You said we should accept people think differently. Rapist, racist, and tories all think differently to me. Why should I tolerate any of them, they all fall into the same bracket that they put their own selfish needs a head of the overall well being of everyone. 

FFS Pete, this is what you do every time your wafer thin arguments are taken apart, refuse to engage with the actual argument, strawman the fuck out of everything. demand I provide a list of non related evidence to something that was a hypothetical. 

If you can't engage with the actual argument then you will be ignored, and not with the ignore button just regular ignored like you way you ignore a small petulant child.

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5 minutes ago, Chach said:

FFS Pete, this is what you do every time your wafer thin arguments are taken apart, refuse to engage with the actual argument, strawman the fuck out of everything. demand I provide a list of non related evidence to something that if  was a hypothetical. 

If you can't engage with the actual argument then you will be ignored, and not with the ignore button just regular ignored like you way you ignore a small petulant child.

If it's a wafer thin argument you'd have no problem responding to it and proving other wise. Funny that you then go on to say I don't engage. Look up projection and you might learn something about yourself. 

How is asking the same question strawmanning. Its the opposite, I'm asking for a clear answer to a clear question. Stop hiding and put your point across with the reasons. 

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14 hours ago, Palfy said:

Chach you are part of the problem even though you think you know the answers you don’t stop adding to the argument against democracy. 

I don't think I've ever said that I think I have any answers Palf, but I'd like to think that I am not ignorant to the vast complexities of the situations we're discussing so I am always surprised that pointing out that calling the other side selfish/nazis/fascists/c*nts is a bad strategy is met with either opprobrium or silence.

For the record there's no argument against democracy, it's not perfect because it has human nature rooted in tribalism to contend with but has demonstrably delivered the fairest societies in the history of humanity.

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15 hours ago, pete0 said:

There are many moral and ethical issues which are so divisive that really there is no right and wrong - despite either side claiming there is. It's just differing opinions. In those instances, you can't be aware your thoughts are bad or that your thoughts are good. I think if you vote Conservative or you vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, you have a reason for doing so, and I'm guessing most aren't scumbags or morons (certainly not 50% of the population), despite many of the policies having dire outcomes. They may be voting for purely selfish reasons, though.

What right reason is there for voting tory that outweighs the increase in needless deaths and poverty. As far as I'm convener they are literally starving children and killing people with their policy. The majority of voters must be aware of this so they are scumbags, those not aware are morons. 

I could argue that you have flawed ethics if you eat meat (I am vegan) but I would not call you a scumbag or a moron for doing so, despite my very strong personal opinion about it.  I was brought up In Northern Ireland in the seventies, where really terrible things happened. I was asked to straddle the divide between Protestants and Catholics when I belonged to neither group. The only solution to that conflict was tolerance and acceptance. Any schism between Conservative and Labour ideology is just polite conversation compared to the events of that time and to other brutal conflicts round the world.  

Don't see how that's relevant. You can make strong arguments either way as there's pluses and minuses to whether vegan is friendlier, plants are living things to and a lot of produce is worse for the environment. I don't see any strong evidence that demonstrates how the deaths and misery caused by tory policy is justified. The only ones benefiting are the rich and it's at the expense of everyone else.

It's very relevant.

In Northern Ireland, the British Government (Labour and Conservative) was complicit in the sectarian murders of its own citizens. Tory austerity cuts fall well short of this - unless you have access to government papers to the contrary.

The pluses and minuses comment about veganism avoids the central issue of animal welfare and the eating of meat. I feel as strongly about it as you do about the Tory Govt / austerity cuts. I don't go calling people who eat meat morons and scumbags.

One of the most egregious examples of state crime was the war in Iraq - sanctioned by Labour. Governments are guilty of lots of things and should rightly be held to account.  

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44 minutes ago, Chach said:

I don't think I've ever said that I think I have any answers Palf, but I'd like to think that I am not ignorant to the vast complexities of the situations we're discussing so I am always surprised that pointing out that calling the other side selfish/nazis/fascists/c*nts is a bad strategy is met with either opprobrium or silence.

For the record there's no argument against democracy, it's not perfect because it has human nature rooted in tribalism to contend with but has demonstrably delivered the fairest societies in the history of humanity.

Chach please stop talking in riddles you said the best argument against democracy was this thread, you said it in away as to blame us for conservatives removing themselves from the thread, but seem to absolve yourself from any responsibility of what happens on this thread, that is why I said you are a part of the problem, because you are one of the main contributors to the thread, but you don’t see it that way because you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than the man stood next to you who has a different view and different way of expressing his views. 
Now I come from a background were a spade is called a spade, I think you like to say a lot and preach to people, but like all good politicians you talk well but say nothing of any worth. 
Now if this place offends or affects you so much you have a choice like all of us not to participate. 
I have looked at when all the political threads started on this forum the first being Brexit in 2016 and the other 4 or 5 after, this as I said before is meant to be a forum for Everton supporters to discuss Everton FC topics, John struck a chord with me when he said this place had gone down hill since the Brexit thread opened, and he is probably right, the mods should consider closing political threads and getting back to the basics of what this forum was designed for. 
And for people like yourself Chach who cannot live without there daily in take of political I know better than you, there are plenty of place you can indulge yourself but for all of us should it be here?

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