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On 28/09/2018 at 08:08, holystove said:

Replace Corbyn with Starmer, get rid of Abbott and McDonnell and Labour would have a lot more traction with middle of the ground voters.. the ones that gave Blair his huge majorities.

Tbh, I don't see how there is going to be a new election before 2022.  Tories wouldn't dare risk a Corbyn government by calling one now.

This.

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35 minutes ago, Bailey said:

If Labour had a proper leader they would be destroying the Tories in the polls. The Tories couldnt be in a worse position at the moment. Hell even if the Lib Dems had a Clegg or Kennedy at the helm they could have potentially take a large swell of voters from the main 2 parties. 

Vince Cable is way more of an attraction than Clegg or Kennedy imo; old school who'd put the country ahead of personal ambition.

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Vince Cable is way more of an attraction than Clegg or Kennedy imo; old school who'd put the country ahead of personal ambition.

Really? Lib Dems need young and new voters and I dont see why anyone would vote for Cable. He is old (for a modern day elected PM), uncharasmatic and he was a part of the disasterous (for the Lib Dems) coalition. 

I do mean a heyday Clegg or Kennedy not a nowaday version! 

 

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10 hours ago, MikeO said:

Vince Cable is way more of an attraction than Clegg or Kennedy imo; old school who'd put the country ahead of personal ambition.

Bailey is right mate Vince Cable is far too old to be a serious contender to win the minds and hearts of most of the population, he's even to old for me and I'm 59 a very young 59 if I may add.

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11 hours ago, Bailey said:

Really? Lib Dems need young and new voters and I dont see why anyone would vote for Cable. He is old (for a modern day elected PM), uncharasmatic and he was a part of the disasterous (for the Lib Dems) coalition. 

I do mean a heyday Clegg or Kennedy not a nowaday version! 

 

He's dead.

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Some "could be worse off" under universal credit, admits Esther McVey - but Work and Pensions Secretary says benefits changes are helping more people into work

 

maybe I am going deaf or daft but I never heard her say that, I heard that people are going into work and therefore will not need the same level of benefits not the same thing at all. I really wish journalists would post/print/broadcast accurately, if they did that we would not be in the political death throes that brexit has put some people in and we may all agree on whether we should remain. we need good honest reporting and screw political alliances between parties and media.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, rubecula said:

I really wish journalists would post/print/broadcast accurately

Their job wold be easier if politicians did likewise. The media is heavily weighted to the right unfortunately, UC is criminal, forcing people who aren't capable of work into applying for work they have no chance of getting/doing. Total fucking disgrace.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45824590

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Left or right makes no difference to me Mike,  I would really like to see a journalist not be a bigot when interviewing a politician,  instead of forcing the issue, let them fuck it up themselves.

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

That's annoying. Should've been a link to Cadbury making more profits than every yet paying nothing in tax (they even managed to get a credit!) 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/cadbury-care-workers-and-the-conservative-party-con/15/10/

sounds like every american company.  and yet the bailey's of the world want to give them more bailouts and tax cuts and make the people pay more.  madness.  people > companies

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8 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

sounds like every american company.  and yet the bailey's of the world want to give them more bailouts and tax cuts and make the people pay more.  madness.  people > companies

Cadbury was bought out by Kraft in a hostile takeover a few years back

nothing really to do with Cadbury I feel, more likely to be Kraft skimming off the top.

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

Like Owen Jones a lot.

Little unsure on him myself he seemed to be on the anti Corbyn bandwagon and then changed his tune when he saw supporting him as an opportunity to increase his own name, well that or he genuinely had a change of heart. Agree with a lot he says but just don't know if he's genuine or just a career journalist. 

https://order-order.com/2017/06/12/10-times-owen-jones-betrayed-corbyn/

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

That utter cunt should be in jail for what he’s done. 

Edit: not cunt, they’re useful

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Little unsure on him myself he seemed to be on the anti Corbyn bandwagon and then changed his tune when he saw supporting him as an opportunity to increase his own name, well that or he genuinely had a change of heart. Agree with a lot he says but just don't know if he's genuine or just a career journalist. 

https://order-order.com/2017/06/12/10-times-owen-jones-betrayed-corbyn/

Just going by what I've seen of him, wasn't aware of any history between him and Corbyn. Also I don't see how...

“Jeremy Corbyn, a person who will never win a British general election… I know him personally and I know he never wanted to be leader; It was presented as a sense of obligation. He never anticipated this result and now leads the party without having any experience.” (Contexto y Accion, November 2016)

...can be used as an example of a "betrayal". It's an opinion.

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Just going by what I've seen of him, wasn't aware of any history between him and Corbyn. Also I don't see how...

“Jeremy Corbyn, a person who will never win a British general election… I know him personally and I know he never wanted to be leader; It was presented as a sense of obligation. He never anticipated this result and now leads the party without having any experience.” (Contexto y Accion, November 2016)

...can be used as an example of a "betrayal". It's an opinion.

Just Googled him and Corbyn, didn't go through them all myself just remembered at the time he was very anti and then done a u-turn. 

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

The Triumvirate of Blair, Clegg and Cameron should never be let anywhere near politics for the rest of their naturals.

Agree, except Blair hasn’t fucked his own country 

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17 hours ago, MikeO said:

Just going by what I've seen of him, wasn't aware of any history between him and Corbyn. Also I don't see how...

“Jeremy Corbyn, a person who will never win a British general election… I know him personally and I know he never wanted to be leader; It was presented as a sense of obligation. He never anticipated this result and now leads the party without having any experience.” (Contexto y Accion, November 2016)

...can be used as an example of a "betrayal". It's an opinion.

For someone who never wanted to be leader he put up a pretty good fight to keep it when most of his shadow cabinet wanted him to go, most people in that position who wanted the job in the first place would have resigned in those circumstances never mind those who didn’t want the job  

Your have to ask why he never? even though he didn’t want the job, surely that would have been an opportunistic time to leave. 

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Political point this and I'm late to the party because I didn't hear her say it and have no memory of the coverage it got, but I read about it in an article on the rise of nationalism that Theresa May said in her 2016 keynote Tory conference speech, "If You Believe You are a Citizen of the World, You are a Citizen of Nowhere" which I found deeply reprehensible and offensive personally.

Spent an hour and a half watching this debate on it (along with the rise of the right) and found it very interesting, balanced and thought provoking. I know it's unlikely anyone will sit through the whole thing but it just goes to show for me that things need to be talked about sensibly; parliament, Question Time and Sunday newspaper articles are so jingoistic with people spouting "press button A for opinion B". Why can't "stuff" be talked about sensibly?

 

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4 hours ago, MikeO said:

Political point this and I'm late to the party because I didn't hear her say it and have no memory of the coverage it got, but I read about it in an article on the rise of nationalism that Theresa May said in her 2016 keynote Tory conference speech, "If You Believe You are a Citizen of the World, You are a Citizen of Nowhere" which I found deeply reprehensible and offensive personally.

Spent an hour and a half watching this debate on it (along with the rise of the right) and found it very interesting, balanced and thought provoking. I know it's unlikely anyone will sit through the whole thing but it just goes to show for me that things need to be talked about sensibly; parliament, Question Time and Sunday newspaper articles are so jingoistic with people spouting "press button A for opinion B". Why can't "stuff" be talked about sensibly?

 

I did listen to it all the way through for me I am British but I’m not a nationalist, i believe in freedom of movement and that where you were born or what’s written in your passport shouldn’t restrict your movement around the world. 

As I think you know Mike I own a property in Spain and when I go there it feels like being at home I feel no sense of I’m not welcome in fact I feel as free there as I do in Britain, I want people to come to Britain and have the same feeling of feeling at home here as I do in Spain, but I think Brexit has destroyed that and will make people from other countries feel unwanted and I also have a real concern that I may not feel so welcome when I’m in there countries because we may all be tarred with the same brush as far right nationalist. 

I thought the woman from Turkey came across very well and her views and feelings are very similar to my own. 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I did listen to it all the way through for me I am British but I’m not a nationalist, i believe in freedom of movement and that where you were born or what’s written in your passport shouldn’t restrict your movement around the world,

do you include terrorists n that statement?   what about the girl who wants t return to Britain after joining isis/daesh

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6 minutes ago, rubecula said:

do you include terrorists n that statement?   what about the girl who wants t return to Britain after joining isis/daesh

The majority of the world shouldn't be condemned to a nationalistic way of life because of the actions of such a small amount of idiots that they wouldn't register as a percentage point of the world's population, if you start letting people like that control how you live your life they've won the war and you have lost your freedom.

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2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The majority of the world shouldn't be condemned to a nationalistic way of life because of the actions of such a small amount of idiots that they wouldn't register as a percentage point of the world's population, if you start letting people like that control how you live your life they've won the war and you have lost your freedom.

fair enough Palfy but do we let her in or not?  I think she should not be allowed in but then I am just myself.

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

She should be allowed in because she is a British Citizen and we cannot revoke that. However, she should be investigated by the Police and if there is enough evidence be charged and face trial. 

Absolutely; also her baby is a British citizen and has done nothing wrong as far as I know.

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14 hours ago, Palfy said:

The majority of the world shouldn't be condemned to a nationalistic way of life because of the actions of such a small amount of idiots that they wouldn't register as a percentage point of the world's population, if you start letting people like that control how you live your life they've won the war and you have lost your freedom.

Spot on.

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Perhaps the most telling thing of all is that not a single one of the seven splitter had the decency to call a by-election after quitting the Labour Party.

These cynical opportunists have cynically ridden into Westminster on the Labour brand, using the unpaid support and activism of thousands of ordinary Labour members to get there. And now they're selfishly turning their backs on these people in a desperate last-ditch effort to prevent Labour coming to power and bringing ruinous Tory austerity dogma, public service cuts, and wage repression policies to an end.

Even the Brexity Tory MPs Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless had more integrity, because when they quit Cameron's Tory party to join UKIP in 2014 they both called by-elections out of respect for their constituents. 

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-7-right-wing-pro-austerity-labour.html?fbclid=IwAR1EsqsOPL6AmsRLhnURbvtEJjYHpqXnq9kli9h1rhNoibZusyM_r22w7Uo&m=1

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7 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Perhaps the most telling thing of all is that not a single one of the seven splitter had the decency to call a by-election after quitting the Labour Party.

These cynical opportunists have cynically ridden into Westminster on the Labour brand, using the unpaid support and activism of thousands of ordinary Labour members to get there. And now they're selfishly turning their backs on these people in a desperate last-ditch effort to prevent Labour coming to power and bringing ruinous Tory austerity dogma, public service cuts, and wage repression policies to an end.

Even the Brexity Tory MPs Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless had more integrity, because when they quit Cameron's Tory party to join UKIP in 2014 they both called by-elections out of respect for their constituents. 

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-7-right-wing-pro-austerity-labour.html?fbclid=IwAR1EsqsOPL6AmsRLhnURbvtEJjYHpqXnq9kli9h1rhNoibZusyM_r22w7Uo&m=1

That's a very balanced and well thought out argument:huh:.

I mostly agree with you on political stuff Pete but that's actually a very extreme and unhelpful reaction for me (from the link, not you).

I called it "interesting" because I don't know how it'll play out, could be SDP 2.0 for sure (except the founders of the SDP were much higher profile); but I really agree that Corbyn has totally fucked up on Brexit. The anti-semitism thing I find very hard to believe though, my in-laws are/were Jewish lifelong active Labour supporters and if my F-i-L had smelt a whiff of it he'd have made a lot of noise and he never did.

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Absolutely; also her baby is a British citizen and has done nothing wrong as far as I know.

I totally agree. We must never give up what we believe in (which includes compassion) in the name of defending what we believe in. That’s what’s been happening in the US: privacy being taken away in the name of defending a way of life that honors privacy. 

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24 minutes ago, MikeO said:

That's a very balanced and well thought out argument:huh:.

I mostly agree with you on political stuff Pete but that's actually a very extreme and unhelpful reaction for me (from the link, not you).

I called it "interesting" because I don't know how it'll play out, could be SDP 2.0 for sure (except the founders of the SDP were much higher profile); but I really agree that Corbyn has totally fucked up on Brexit. The anti-semitism thing I find very hard to believe though, my in-laws are/were Jewish lifelong active Labour supporters and if my F-i-L had smelt a whiff of it he'd have made a lot of noise and he never did.

Think they raise a good point that they should really give their constituencies a chance to stand by them or stick with the party they voted them in for. 

The antisemitism seems very odd. I don't know enough to really comment on it beyond I've never witnessed any in Liverpool. 

 

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4 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Think they raise a good point that they should really give their constituencies a chance to stand by them or stick with the party they voted them in for.

I agree with that bit.

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They will go down as the Magnificent seven, Tony Blair warned that if Corbyn became leader that the Labour Party would eventually split, do I believe that him or the party are anti Semitic not really that was a lot of blown up rubbish by the conservative rags, but do I believe he has let his party and the British people down before and after Brexit 100% I do. 

I feel more will follow and we will nearly become a one party country with the conservatives not having a credible opposition for years and years, with  the far right of the Conservative party taking over if they haven’t already we will be wearing black shirts and goose stepping in a few years time, and  we won’t need to worry about tightening the borders no one in their right minds will want to come to this shit hole. 

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18 hours ago, rubecula said:

fair enough Palfy but do we let her in or not?  I think she should not be allowed in but then I am just myself.

You know what Rubes I do think she should be allowed back and any others that have British passports, if they have committed any crimes they should be punished, but we have to show we are bigger than ISIS that will hurt there regime of hate towards the west more than if we keep going tit for tat, what we need to remember is that nearly if not all the attack’s in this country are from people born and radicalised here, we need to stop the spiral of retribution which radicals feed off to groom the next suicide bombers. 

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7 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Absolutely let the woman back in. Then rip her child away from her, throw the silly little bitch in prison for the rest of her miserable life, and let a nice, British family bring the child up. 

For something she did at fifteen? Did we not all do daft things at that age? Admittedly what she did was an extremely daft thing but she was a child so to incarcerate her for the rest of her years is Draconian, certainly she needs to be investigated but  "let a nice, British family bring the child up" doesn't sit well with me. How do you know her grandparents don't fit that description?

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I sort of feel sorry for her, these people manipulate and promise the world to these girls to get them out there. The reality is far from what is promised. 

I have no idea what the right thing to do in this situation is, there is no winner in any outcome. The kid is a victim as well as an attacker. 

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27 minutes ago, MikeO said:

For something she did at fifteen? Did we not all do daft things at that age? Admittedly what she did was an extremely daft thing but she was a child so to incarcerate her for the rest of her years is Draconian, certainly she needs to be investigated but  "let a nice, British family bring the child up" doesn't sit well with me. How do you know her grandparents don't fit that description?

Yes.

Well that’s doubtful seeing as her father likes to burn the British flag. So if her grandparents fit that description they didn’t pass it on and aren’t fit to raise a child. And I said a nice, British family because they’ll be everything that girl hates. So it’d actually be a punishment for her. 

Personally, I’d rather she be left to rot in that cesspool with her child and never be allowed back here but she’s a human. Apparently. 

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14 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Yes.

Well that’s doubtful seeing as her father likes to burn the British flag. So if her grandparents fit that description they didn’t pass it on and aren’t fit to raise a child. And I said a nice, British family because they’ll be everything that girl hates. So it’d actually be a punishment for her. 

Personally, I’d rather she be left to rot in that cesspool with her child and never be allowed back here but she’s a human. Apparently. 

I can't find any evidence of that via google, link would be good. I also find it really sad that you're suggesting a minor (as she was) is subhuman.

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Just now, MikeO said:

I can't find any evidence of that via google, link would be good. I also find it really sad that you're suggesting a minor is subhuman.

I find it really sad when someone claims to hate a way of life but then when that way of life can wipe her arse for her she wants to come crawling back. 

She was brave enough to make her bed, so now she should be brave enough to lie in it. 

I don’t think her age is relevant to her subhumanness. Whether she’s 15 or 45 she knew what the decision she made was, what she was going there for.

Fuck her and fuck all of them. Male. Female. Young. Old. White. Brown. Fucking multi-coloured. 

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3 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I find it really sad when someone claims to hate a way of life but then when that way of life can wipe her arse for her she wants to come crawling back. 

She was brave enough to make her bed, so now she should be brave enough to lie in it. 

I don’t think her age is relevant to her subhumanness. Whether she’s 15 or 45 she knew what the decision she made was, what she was going there for.

Fuck her and fuck all of them. Male. Female. Young. Old. White. Brown. Fucking multi-coloured. 

But where's the evidence of her father flag burning?

I agree she was very brave to make the stupid decision she did but she was a  kid at the time; you can't possibly suggest she should pay for that mistake for the rest of her life.

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13 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I can't find any evidence of that via google, link would be good. I also find it really sad that you're suggesting a minor (as she was) is subhuman.

And tbh, I haven’t actually seen that myself but was told about it and trusted it. 

Either way, her child going to a family that is everything she hates would be what she deserves. She certainly doesn’t deserve to raise it in her own twisted image. 

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

But where's the evidence of her father flag burning?

I agree she was very brave to make the stupid decision she did but she was a  kid at the time; you can't possibly suggest she should pay for that mistake for the rest of her life.

When that decision is to want to wipe out a whole way of life then yeah she should pay for it for the rest of her life. At 15 did you know that murder was wrong, Mike? Did you know that joining a terrorist groups was not a good idea? Because I sure as shit did. I also knew that decisions have consequences  

Im sure that way of life should be allowed to exist while it ensures the safety of her baby though :lol: 

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1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

When that decision is to want to wipe out a whole way of life then yeah she should pay for it for the rest of her life. At 15 did you know that murder was wrong, Mike? Did you know that joining a terrorist groups was not a good idea? Because I sure as shit did. I also knew that decisions have consequences  

Im sure that way of life should be allowed to exist while it ensures the safety of her baby though :lol: 

But maybe that is because you have been brought up well. Minors are massively influenced by their environment and I would bet a lot of money that had she been brought up differently that she would have come to a very different decision.

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