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johnh

General Election

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34 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Knowing him it was a tactical decision just so he could throw that sounbite out there himself in the eventuality he could be up to be the next leader. 

Or he couldn't be arsed to turn up to vote.

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39 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Knowing him it was a tactical decision just so he could throw that sounbite out there himself in the eventuality he could be up to be the next leader. 

True :( 

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33 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Or he couldn't be arsed to turn up to vote.

Or he was busy galavanting around the globe being the walking definition of a Brit abroad. Loud, racist and unapologetic. 

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

UK democracy, the cornerstone of our country for centuries, swings into action once again with the ageing and the wealthy (124,000 of them, that's 0.27% of the electorate) ultimately voting in bonkers Boris next month; nailed on imo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48395211

That's larger than some of the more pessimistic guesstimates...”

the British Blogging Corporation strikes again...

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

UK democracy, the cornerstone of our country for centuries, swings into action once again with the ageing and the wealthy (124,000 of them, that's 0.27% of the electorate) ultimately voting in bonkers Boris next month; nailed on imo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48395211

Mike,  I am not sure what your beef is about 'democracy'?  I don't particularly want Boris in but am puzzled by your tirade against those voting Boris in.  I don't see any difference between that and the left-wing Labour members voting in a left-wing Corbyn.

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3 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike,  I am not sure what your beef is about 'democracy'?  I don't particularly want Boris in but am puzzled by your tirade against those voting Boris in.  I don't see any difference between that and the left-wing Labour members voting in a left-wing Corbyn.

It's not democratic to let the elite vote for a new leader without any one else getting a say. Would the same voters who voted Conservative under May vote for them under Boris? 

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30 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike,  I am not sure what your beef is about 'democracy'?  I don't particularly want Boris in but am puzzled by your tirade against those voting Boris in.  I don't see any difference between that and the left-wing Labour members voting in a left-wing Corbyn.

I would protest just as vociferously if it was any other party electing a PM in such an undemocratic manner. Corbyn being elected was quite different, it was members voting for a party leader, not for a PM.

It's a fairly obvious difference. Puzzled by your puzzlement. Should 0.27% of the voting public really have that power?

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

Mike,  I am not sure what your beef is about 'democracy'?  I don't particularly want Boris in but am puzzled by your tirade against those voting Boris in.  I don't see any difference between that and the left-wing Labour members voting in a left-wing Corbyn.

This is because you believe the current system is "democracy". It isn'tttt. It's a form of democracy that deceives people into thinking their voice actually matters, when all you really need is to be rich with an Eton education, without morals and have a good social network to actually have a say. It's a very clever trick pulled by the rich and (presumably) inbred to rule with fear. 

British parliamentary democracy has gotten us to where we are today (no, it's not responsible for success and wealth, that came from centuries of command, conquer and exploitation) - an absolute farce of "freedom" and an international laughing stock. 

The people voting for Boris are less than 1% of the population. That isn'tttt representing people, it's playing a game of deception. Just as the Brexit referendum was; Choose a car - The red that you know that's not perfect but has many, many advantages and is constantly being upgraded by people who know the ins and outs of it better than any of us could. Or a blue one. Doesn't matter what blue model it is, or what features you'll get with it. Don't worry though, we'll decide that for you. Then you end up with a stock 1974 Vauxhall Cavalier with rust riddled throughout because you were led to believe you had a choice.

If Labour was running this shit-show, and that's not necessarily a comforting thought by any means, and they had a leadership change, I'd be just as angry at the lack of a say. Any time there is a leadership change, there should be a general election, regardless of who is in charge. I was shocked when Blair stepped down and Brown stepped in - no one voted for him so why the fuck should he then run the country? Why - because parlimentary democracy is not a democracy, it's a veiled form of dictatorship.

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

I would protest just as vociferously if it was any other party electing a PM in such an undemocratic manner. Corbyn being elected was quite different, it was members voting for a party leader, not for a PM.

It's a fairly obvious difference. Puzzled by your puzzlement. Should 0.27% of the voting public really have that power?

Mike, I presume you raised your concerns then when Gordon Brown was installed as PM?  Its the way the cookie crumbles.  Both  parties have gained from it this century.

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56 minutes ago, Matt said:

This is because you believe the current system is "democracy". It isn'ttttt. It's a form of democracy that deceives people into thinking their voice actually matters, when all you really need is to be rich with an Eton education, without morals and have a good social network to actually have a say. It's a very clever trick pulled by the rich and (presumably) inbred to rule with fear. 

British parliamentary democracy has gotten us to where we are today (no, it's not responsible for success and wealth, that came from centuries of command, conquer and exploitation) - an absolute farce of "freedom" and an international laughing stock. 

The people voting for Boris are less than 1% of the population. That isn'ttttt representing people, it's playing a game of deception. Just as the Brexit referendum was; Choose a car - The red that you know that's not perfect but has many, many advantages and is constantly being upgraded by people who know the ins and outs of it better than any of us could. Or a blue one. Doesn't matter what blue model it is, or what features you'll get with it. Don't worry though, we'll decide that for you. Then you end up with a stock 1974 Vauxhall Cavalier with rust riddled throughout because you were led to believe you had a choice.

If Labour was running this shit-show, and that's not necessarily a comforting thought by any means, and they had a leadership change, I'd be just as angry at the lack of a say. Any time there is a leadership change, there should be a general election, regardless of who is in charge. I was shocked when Blair stepped down and Brown stepped in - no one voted for him so why the fuck should he then run the country? Why - because parlimentary democracy is not a democracy, it's a veiled form of dictatorship.

Matt, I'm afraid that most of the above 'rant' (for that's what it is) is not worthy of a response, but I do agree on one point. A General Election should be held if there is a change to a PM during a term of government.  However, I would restrict this to circumstances where a PM is replaced due to a vote of no confidence. This would also help to concentrate minds and head off ultra-ambitious would be PM's.  A PM could be replaced by illness or death, what if this happened a few weeks after a General Election?  Another one next week?

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13 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, I presume you raised your concerns then when Gordon Brown was installed as PM?  Its the way the cookie crumbles.  Both  parties have gained from it this century.

Totally different. Brown was installed as deputy leader, no vote after Blair stepped down. I'll ask you again, do you believe that 0.27% of the voting public deciding on the next PM is a democratic process?

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

Totally different. Brown was installed as deputy leader, no vote after Blair stepped down. I'll ask you again, do you believe that 0.27% of the voting public deciding on the next PM is a democratic process?

Its always totally different.  Let me get this straight.  For the Conservatives, 0.27% of the voting public (though its not the voting public, its the membership - same rules as Labour). For Labour it was 0% of the voting public (membership).

 

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14 minutes ago, johnh said:

Its always totally different.  Let me get this straight.  For the Conservatives, 0.27% of the voting public (though its not the voting public, its the membership - same rules as Labour). For Labour it was 0% of the voting public (membership).

0.27% of the electorate (the voting public by another name) deciding on the new PM. First time it's ever happened.

 

 

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I'll ask you again, do you believe that 0.27% of the voting public deciding on the next PM is a democratic process?

Feels like talking to Pete in the Gana thread, simple question to answer but nowt forthcoming.

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16 hours ago, MikeO said:

Feels like talking to Pete in the Gana thread, simple question to answer but nowt forthcoming.

Mike, I've answered it.  The rules for both Labour and Conservatives require the membership to vote.  Bringing the 'voting public' in is hypothetical.  I will state it again, if the Conservative hypothetical vote is 0.27% then Gordon Brown's was 0%.

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30 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, I've answered it.  The rules for both Labour and Conservatives require the membership to vote.  Bringing the 'voting public' in is hypothetical.  I will state it again, if the Conservative hypothetical vote is 0.27% then Gordon Brown's was 0%.

No because Labour were voted in while Brown was deputy leader, so everyone knew if (actually common knowledge that it was when) Blair stood down he'd be PM. Completely different circumstances. 

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

Mike, I've answered it.  The rules for both Labour and Conservatives require the membership to vote.  Bringing the 'voting public' in is hypothetical.  I will state it again, if the Conservative hypothetical vote is 0.27% then Gordon Brown's was 0%.

As Mike said Gordon Brown was deputy. He took over as is natural. 

What the Conservatives are doing is completely different. They've squandered a vote of no confidence in order to keep power and more they are picking the next leader between them. 

Given they then forced May out so they should be done for treason. Everyone of them who voted confidence in her were lying and done it for the benefit of themselves. Putting yourself before the country. 

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

The fact remains, Gordon Brown was never voted in and you seem to have a sudden respect for voting after three years of trying to overturn the largest vote in our history.

Sadly I don't have that power John, just expressing opinion and pointing out facts. 

You know as well as I do that Brown was as good as voted in because everyone knew that Blair was off. Are you suggesting the American VP has no mandate to step up if Trump walked under a bus? 

Sorry but you're being a total pedant here (that's normally my job). 

Nobody voted for Boris and this situation is totally unprecedented in our history however much you suggest otherwise.

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20 hours ago, MikeO said:

Sadly I don't have that power John, just expressing opinion and pointing out facts. 

You know as well as I do that Brown was as good as voted in because everyone knew that Blair was off. Are you suggesting the American VP has no mandate to step up if Trump walked under a bus? 

Sorry but you're being a total pedant here (that's normally my job). 

Nobody voted for Boris and this situation is totally unprecedented in our history however much you suggest otherwise.

Mike, no matter how much gloss you put on it, IF Boris is voted in by the membership he will have been 'voted in'.  Brown wasn't, in spite of the fact that Labour Party rules state that the membership should vote. Brown was 'nodded through'.  Democratic that.

You state that 'nobody voted for Boris and this situation is totally unprecedented in our history - however much you suggest otherwise.

As for 'pointing out facts' -  Half of all Prime Ministers appointed in the last 100 years, were not appointed as a result of a General Election, ie voted in in accordance with party rules.  Not exactly unprecedented.  Not up to your usual standard Mike.

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43 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, no matter how much gloss you put on it, IF Boris is voted in by the membership he will have been 'voted in'.  Brown wasn't, in spite of the fact that Labour Party rules state that the membership should vote. Brown was 'nodded through'.  Democratic that.

You state that 'nobody voted for Boris and this situation is totally unprecedented in our history - however much you suggest otherwise.

As for 'pointing out facts' -  Half of all Prime Ministers appointed in the last 100 years, were not appointed as a result of a General Election, ie voted in in accordance with party rules.  Not exactly unprecedented.  Not up to your usual standard Mike.

OK, drawing a line under this for me because I don't want to fall out with you; half the PMs in the last century may not have been appointed as a result of a general election but all were appointed because they were deputy PM or as a result of a vote confined to members of their parliamentary party. This is the first time (hence unprecedented without question however much gloss you put on it John) that as a result of the Tories changing their leadership election rules in 1998 a microscopic minority of "the people" get to choose the PM.

Elected members choosing new PM? Democratic-ish. Deputy leader stepping up? Totally democratic. 0.27% of electorate choosing new PM? Democratic? Really? 

If it happened in Zimbabwe the World would be up in arms.

For me that's above my usual standard given the heat I'm coping with, if you still want to give me a C- fair enough. I've spelt it out enough times, won't be doing it again (except maybe Wednesday night when I'm back in Blighty). 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Good read Pete some weeks ago I said the best candidate to win this for the country’s sake was Rory Stewart, as a stalwart Labour voter the best Tory MP is an out of work Tory MP.

But of all those who have thrown their hats into the ring Stewart is the only credible option the rest are lying bastards and won’t be able to unite parliament or the country over Brexit, Stewart who for a few years was a fully paid up member of the Labour Party will struggle as well of that I have no doubt, but I believe he has the best credentials to do the job not necessarily for his Party but for the country. 

Plus he can’t stand Boris which is good enough for me.   

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3 hours ago, MikeO said:

OK, drawing a line under this for me because I don't want to fall out with you; half the PMs in the last century may not have been appointed as a result of a general election but all were appointed because they were deputy PM or as a result of a vote confined to members of their parliamentary party. This is the first time (hence unprecedented without question however much gloss you put on it John) that as a result of the Tories changing their leadership election rules in 1998 a microscopic minority of "the people" get to choose the PM.

Elected members choosing new PM? Democratic-ish. Deputy leader stepping up? Totally democratic. 0.27% of electorate choosing new PM? Democratic? Really? 

If it happened in Zimbabwe the World would be up in arms.

For me that's above my usual standard given the heat I'm coping with, if you still want to give me a C- fair enough. I've spelt it out enough times, won't be doing it again (except maybe Wednesday night when I'm back in Blighty). 

Yes, me too.  Don't want to fall out 'cos if we ever meet up you won't buy me a beer!😄

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27 minutes ago, Tonsta said:

Dont we all get a vote in a few years if we dont like him, or is it brexit thats driving this discussion.

Brexit is a side issue to this and has its own thread; the issue currently in this one is whether the new PM (whoever it may be) is being decided upon in a democratic fashion or not. Certainly there'll be an opportunity in 2022 (at the latest) for the whole electorate to have their say but, as I see it, the next one is going to be imposed on us with 99.73% of us having no say, the caveat that we'll be able to put it right in three years carries no weight with me.

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Brexit is a side issue to this and has its own thread; the issue currently in this one is whether the new PM (whoever it may be) is being decided upon in a democratic fashion or not. Certainly there'll be an opportunity in 2022 (at the latest) for the whole electorate to have their say but, as I see it, the next one is going to be imposed on us with 99.73% of us having no say, the caveat that we'll be able to put it right in three years carries no weight with me.

And also this newly elected PM who like you say 99.73% have no say in is going to preside over one of the biggest decisions this country has probably faced since WWll which will possibly effect 100% of the population. 

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2 hours ago, johnh said:

Yes, me too.  Don't want to fall out 'cos if we ever meet up you won't buy me a beer!😄

He’s always good for that, don’t worry :) 

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

He’s always good for that, don’t worry :) 

Politics comes a very poor second to what we share on here -  lifetime supporters of Everton.  Will make my day whenever I meet fellow Toffee's.  Cornish Steve the only one so far. What a memorable day that was.

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12 hours ago, johnh said:

Politics comes a very poor second to what we share on here -  lifetime supporters of Everton.  Will make my day whenever I meet fellow Toffee's.  Cornish Steve the only one so far. What a memorable day that was.

Very true. The only reason we can have difficult discussions is because of that link - it’s the only online platform I know where there is a mutual respect (for the most part) and that allows us all to speak honestly even when there’s clear disagreements 

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52 minutes ago, Matt said:

Very true. The only reason we can have difficult discussions is because of that link - it’s the only online platform I know where there is a mural respect (for the most part) and that allows us all to speak honestly even when there’s clear disagreements 

Wow, there's a whole mural?! Truly spectacular.

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Can see the people rising to force change if the tories stay in power much longer. If we were a third world country another country would have stood in by now. 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/grenfell-survivors-beam-message-onto-parliament-two-years-on-a4169441.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0oAIjTYODGWKvjnu3wg4rBDtQFYBf44XAK4PuLpCeI0j96hpfa_N01V6g#Echobox=1560836821

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What an absolute moron. Caller tells Hunt he won't get any votes from the NHS but then goes on to say they don't want Corbyn they still want a Tory. 

There's no such thing as a good tory for the NHS. 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/furious-gp-jeremy-hunt-no-one-nhs-vote-for-him/?fbclid=IwAR2lAMG6MmEl6PXQiV_71qAtKFpaM99rIogrPBwnFf7GqfTmYjZMdzfrhuU

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8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What an absolute moron. Caller tells Hunt he won't get any votes from the NHS but then goes on to say they don't want Corbyn they still want a Tory. 

There's no such thing as a good tory for the NHS. 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/furious-gp-jeremy-hunt-no-one-nhs-vote-for-him/?fbclid=IwAR2lAMG6MmEl6PXQiV_71qAtKFpaM99rIogrPBwnFf7GqfTmYjZMdzfrhuU

There’s no such thing as a good Tory. 

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5 hours ago, Matt said:

My prediction of Dumb and Dumber running the UK and USA a couple of years ago wasn’t supposed to come true! :crying: 

keep yer gob shut in future :shakingfist:

 

:) 

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Another Tory fuckwit. Surely in that position you should be done for fraud for creating invoices to claim expenses from a public office. Should have been in prison nevermind needed a petition to remove him from his seat. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chris-davies-tory-mp-brecon-radnorshire-by-election-expenses-invoice-a8968666.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3imiOabyam9y7k1G3k1Q8rWpfJiKcaSpNWIf56edSzuV19OR1m_TW8E-M#Echobox=1561113646

An another one. Homeless minister who is contempt when it comes to... homeless people. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/20/homelessness-minister-accused-of-racist-remarks-in-email?fbclid=IwAR2etLFR9M6GenmzoOQcbRMOZpaqmIXR7rGxC2oHeeRJJKdkWRndGjEEid4

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She is spot on when she tells him he doesn’t care for money or anything, that’s why it will be such a disaster if he becomes our next PM, he will try and walk this country down the road to financial oblivion with out a care or concern for anyone or anything. 

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On 26/05/2019 at 17:46, MikeO said:

 

Yes he's done some decent humanitarian stuff abroad as well but still cut from the same cloth as the rest of them. Never experienced applying for Universal Credit I wouldn't think, or working on a zero hours contract or getting by on minimum wage.

 

facepalm.jpg

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The next party in power need to ring fence the NHS. The founders nephew has passed away with the NHS holding the blame for neglect. That family was probably proud as day that they could point to the NHS and that's been completely tarnished for them and worst their family member has died without getting the full chance he should have. 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-founder-nye-bevans-great-17009208?fbclid=IwAR0SOKuYN0FDnynzGIyWdom9c5mTGpriwALTFxCeCR9ROx80OcOIKGOGyBA

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

I know the media love him but this is a stretch too far. Tory journalists trying to shame the neighbours of Boris wafflecopter for reporting the domestic abuse. 

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2019/06/24/the-secret-barrister-dismantles-the-suggestion-that-boris-johnsons-neighbours-broke-the-law/

I have no argument against them reporting it to the police that should be the done thing, but after the police had been and found nothing to worry about that should have been it finished.

To find that they not only taped it but  then gave it to a Newspaper for either some money or just to get some publicity for themselves, a bit mercenary if you ask me and not somebody I would class as "good Neighbours".

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