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5 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

I come across all manner of people. I work in construction and deal with people from the bottom rung to the very top of the industry. I meet people with hardly any education and people who are well educated. I can only ever speak for myself and from what I have experienced and how I interpret the world.

I've worked in towns that have huge muslim communities like Oldham and Rochdale. I've worked in places like Birkenhead that is largely white working class and has lots of poverty. I've worked in places like Alderly Edge that are enclaves of privileged white middle class progressives.

I draw my opinions from my experiences. Yours may be different none the less but these are my experiences and they are genuine.

I‚Äôm not dismissing that there are people like that ( as there are communist with bashed out brains like me ūüėČ) but not in the numbers that are making a difference to our democracy, if it did we would have voted to leave the EU got paranoid about letting other EU national‚Äôs in and blamed foreigners for the demise of our NHS.

Food for thought I guess. 

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2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I‚Äôm not dismissing that there are people like that ( as there are communist with bashed out brains like me ūüėČ) but not in the numbers that are making a difference to our democracy, if it did we would have voted to leave the EU got paranoid about letting other EU national‚Äôs in and blamed foreigners for the demise of our NHS.

Food for thought I guess. 

It should be abundantly clear why Labour strongholds like Leigh voted Tory for the first time ever and it isn't because they became racist xenophobes over night.

It has been 40 years since they closed the pits and northern towns lost their industries to China and everywhere else. Whilst the big cities, that all vote Labour, have had the most success these towns have been left to die.

Whether the country does better or worse post Brexit is irrelevant to these people, they won't see any of the money anyway. The country needs to reset it's whole economy. We can't all be City traders, pilots or surgeons. Ordinary people need ordinary jobs and not a zero hour contract with Amazon. If that means a job in a factory making kettles and toasters then so be it but they need a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. All those years in the EU hasn't given them that.

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25 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said:

Did I say or suggest that!?

Simple facts are more people regardless of where they came from put more strain on the NHS 

I'm sure there's factual figures out there re immigrants but it's not something I can be arsed digging into as it's not about background it's simply about numbers to me 

When I'm saying that it includes increasing birth rates and population as a whole, let's not misconstrue what's being said into some daft race debate

I do agree Bailey it's ran piss poorly but I do think funding is massively under what's required, but do agree it needs to be spread and used much better 

Yes more people will put more strain on the NHS over a period of time if the funding has stood still for years, but immigration is not the main cause of an over subscribed NHS, the funding hasn’t been given to keep up pace with a growing population, which a fraction is immigration yet these immigrants work in the main and contribute to the government for the service, the government then choose not to invest what we contribute in N I payments or if you’re self employed class 2 and 4 stamps. 

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8 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Yes more people will put more strain on the NHS over a period of time if the funding has stood still for years, but immigration is not the main cause of an over subscribed NHS, the funding hasn’t been given to keep up pace with a growing population, which a fraction is immigration yet these immigrants work in the main and contribute to the government for the service, the government then choose not to invest what we contribute in N I payments or if you’re self employed class 2 and 4 stamps. 

NHS funding hasn't stood still. It has kept up with the rate of inflation, it has kept up with organic changes in population. It hasn't been able to keep up with the sky rocketing demand it faces. It will never keep up with demand in it's current form and it's current usage.

We are living through a technological revolution and old institutions cannot keep up with the pace of change that this brings.

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3 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Enjoying the fact that we can go back to debating this respectfully and without abuse, wonder why that is?

People get entrenched in their positions and battle lines get drawn. It is hard to cut through that. There are bad actors on both sides of any argument and the anonymity of the internet makes it easy to lose civility. Even just typing your comments doesn't really work because there is no nuance. If I were talking to you personally you would get the "cut of my gist" even if I was not executing it as best as I could. The internet doesn't allow for that and people end up getting frustrated with each other. Twitter is the prime example of that, also it is full of minge bags.

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22 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

It should be abundantly clear why Labour strongholds like Leigh voted Tory for the first time ever and it isn't because they became racist xenophobes over night.

It has been 40 years since they closed the pits and northern towns lost their industries to China and everywhere else. Whilst the big cities, that all vote Labour, have had the most success these towns have been left to die.

Whether the country does better or worse post Brexit is irrelevant to these people, they won't see any of the money anyway. The country needs to reset it's whole economy. We can't all be City traders, pilots or surgeons. Ordinary people need ordinary jobs and not a zero hour contract with Amazon. If that means a job in a factory making kettles and toasters then so be it but they need a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. All those years in the EU hasn't given them that.

Most of that is propaganda against the EU.

The pits closing nothing to do with the EU, that was solely a decision from this country. 
Zero contract hours not something given to us by the EU. 
You can’t force companies or manufacturer's to set up offices or factories in towns like Leigh and that’s not the EU’s fault, that’s down to the government to offer incentives for companies to move into these area’s and I’m sure they try, but there are other factors that companies take into consideration like a skilled workforce and good transportation links again out of the control of the EU. 
But I believe they were sold a lie that it will be better if we leave the EU, when really anyone with a bit of sense knows that employment opportunities in Leigh won’t get any better, no matter what Boris promised them. 

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7 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

People get entrenched in their positions and battle lines get drawn. It is hard to cut through that. There are bad actors on both sides of any argument and the anonymity of the internet makes it easy to lose civility. Even just typing your comments doesn't really work because there is no nuance. If I were talking to you personally you would get the "cut of my gist" even if I was not executing it as best as I could. The internet doesn't allow for that and people end up getting frustrated with each other. Twitter is the prime example of that, also it is full of minge bags.

Thing is Paul when you discuss politics and religion people will be entrenched in their views they hold them nearly as dearly as life itself to some degree, we could discuss fashion or recipes if you like I‚Äôm sure there be less disagreementūüėČ

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1 minute ago, Palfy said:

Most of that is propaganda against the EU.

The pits closing nothing to do with the EU, that was solely a decision from this country. 
Zero contract hours not something given to us by the EU. 
You can’t force companies or manufacturer's to set up offices or factories in towns like Leigh and that’s not the EU’s fault, that’s down to the government to offer incentives for companies to move into these area’s and I’m sure they try, but there are other factors that companies take into consideration like a skilled workforce and good transportation links again out of the control of the EU. 
But I believe they were sold a lie that it will be better if we leave the EU, when really anyone with a bit of sense knows that employment opportunities in Leigh won’t get any better, no matter what Boris promised them. 

I'm fully aware of all that. The point is that they wanted a change from the status quo. The EU represents the status quo and leaving takes away an easy scapegoat and makes government fully accountable again. Can't use the EU excuse anymore and I think the Tories are aware of this.

I voted leave because I believe the EU in it's current guise is beyond reform. It needs to be torn down and rewritten all over again. It was designed as a protectionist device to protect German manufacturing, French and Spanish agriculture and to a lesser extent the Italian fashion industry. It has largely failed in most of those as only the German economy is doing well and could head into recession soon. At it's very heart it is elitist, capitalist and the classical left should be in opposition to it.

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Just now, Palfy said:

Thing is Paul when you discuss politics and religion people will be entrenched in their views they hold them nearly as dearly as life itself to some degree, we could discuss fashion or recipes if you like I‚Äôm sure there be less disagreementūüėČ

They can be entrenched if they like, it would be best if people just took what I said into consideration. That maybe people aren't quite articulating themselves as well as they can. It would save a lot of headache if people had that outlook. That's ultimately their prerogative though, as frustrated as it makes them.

I wouldn't have any other debate. I'm most interested in politics, history, empires and cultural behaviours. 

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Whilst the nations of Africa are in this phase of Empire, the most relevant example of this model is Britain today, the only Western nation in an expansive phase. The Brexit issues are thus seen as the first democratically contained Civil war with all the underlying forces at play. 
https://www.davidmurrin.co.uk/blog-entry/brexit-part-2-on-the-way-to-a-…

In comparison the EU is in the phase of decline and Legacy, and such time is not in its favour when grappling with Brexit or any other structural issue. https://www.davidmurrin.co.uk/blog-entry/brexit-options

This is a part of an article from a political futures forecaster. I just find this sort of thing interesting 

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4 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

They can be entrenched if they like, it would be best if people just took what I said into consideration. That maybe people aren't quite articulating themselves as well as they can. It would save a lot of headache if people had that outlook. That's ultimately their prerogative though, as frustrated as it makes them.

I wouldn't have any other debate. I'm most interested in politics, history, empires and cultural behaviours. 

I think most people take your views into consideration, and some agree with your views and some don’t, for me personally I have agreed with some of your political views in the past, but I’m a remainer for lots of reasons that I won’t go into but it’s irrelevant for me now, and time will tell if the leavers were right. 
But just because Brexit was delivered it doesn’t and won’t make me believe it is the right decision for this country or the people in it. 
For me the best way to debate politics is not to try and prove your right by talking down to or belittling the person or persons you are debating with, you can’t be right all the time. 

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24 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I think most people take your views into consideration, and some agree with your views and some don’t, for me personally I have agreed with some of your political views in the past, but I’m a remainer for lots of reasons that I won’t go into but it’s irrelevant for me now, and time will tell if the leavers were right. 
But just because Brexit was delivered it doesn’t and won’t make me believe it is the right decision for this country or the people in it. 
For me the best way to debate politics is not to try and prove your right by talking down to or belittling the person or persons you are debating with, you can’t be right all the time. 

I just look at things from a geo-political and Empirical standpoint. You cannot separate the economy and society from it's power structures and it's military. They are intertwined. The EU is racing towards a military union because it knows that without one it is doomed as it cannot compete for the resources that it needs.

It has a demographics problem that it has tried to solve through mass immigration. This has failed in the EU because of their failure to adequately integrate these new citizens. Unsurprisingly Britain has historically and still is far far better at integrating migrants. We take a much more diverse range of migrants than the rest of Europe and this lends itself to their integration, we have much less ethnic and religious strife than the rest of the continent. Most all migrants are on board with British identity and culture and that is going to allow for a much simpler transition from regional power to a fledgling empire.

In short, I think we are "at it again" with the whole empire thing.

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11 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

The EU is racing towards a military union because it knows that without one it is doomed as it cannot compete for the resources that it needs.

I’m not sure what you mean by that statement, do you mean that they have decided to create a EU army so they can go to war or threaten in someways to get the resources it needs to function, sorry if that’s wrong but I can’t think what else you may of meant?

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Enjoying the fact that we can go back to debating this respectfully and without abuse, wonder why that is?

Likewise.

Can we please try to keep it that way. Quite happy to debate opinions respectfully but I have no time for ad hominem foul and abusive language.

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Enjoying the fact that we can go back to debating this respectfully and without abuse, wonder why that is?

Is this going to turn into a guessing game, or do you have a theory that you could enlighten me with in a PM if necessary. 

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3 hours ago, TallPaul1878 said:

To lay the blame solely on the lack of funding is, in my opinion, a cop out.

The NHS is fairly well funded but clearly needs more. Demand is definitely outpacing supply and services are being cut in none critical areas to meet demand in others.

The NHS is poorly funded compared to spending on health services in Western Europe.

Many reasons for queues:

1) Lack of GP's - crisis in recruiting them.

2) Absolute failure to have a policy that deals with Social Care for elderly and critically ill, which leads to patients "bed blocking" (although I hate the term)

3) Lack of staff in general, there is a recruitment crises in many areas of the NHS with positions going unfilled for many months. 

The extra demand is in large part down to people not being able to go to their GP, no out of hours service in our area anymore for example. 

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On 14/01/2020 at 22:13, RPG said:

I find it amazing how so many European companies that had threatened to pull out of UK if we dared to implement brexit are now falling over themselves to extol the virtues of continuing and expanding their business in post brexit UK.

More project fear exposed as nothing more than cow towing to their EU masters.

The latest company to do a complete volte face being non other than Airbus!

https://ukupdates.co.uk/airbus-sees-great-potential-to-expand-after-brexit/

Image result for cow towing

 

ūü§Ē

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10 hours ago, Johnsy said:

Image result for cow towing

 

ūü§Ē

Very funny indeed. But the sentiment I posted still holds good. I normally pride myself on my spelling (usually after 3 or 4 corrections) but this one did slip through the net.

Here is what I really meant!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow

How long did you have to search to find that pic? I'm impressed.

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5 minutes ago, RPG said:

Very funny indeed. But the sentiment I posted still holds good. I normally pride myself on my spelling (usually after 3 or 4 corrections) but this one did slip through the net.

Here is what I really meant!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow

How long did you have to search to find that pic? I'm impressed.

It was literally one of the first images that came up when searching "cow towing" - there are a surprising amount of pictures of cows being towed on the internet to be fair!

 

Apologies, I'm quite a pedant & that really jumped out at me when I was reading through the thread last night. I do utterly disagree with you about Brexit though & think it will be a complete disaster for the country, but I'm just a London lefty who works in the public sector so I would!

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17 hours ago, Johnsy said:

It was literally one of the first images that came up when searching "cow towing" - there are a surprising amount of pictures of cows being towed on the internet to be fair!

 

Apologies, I'm quite a pedant & that really jumped out at me when I was reading through the thread last night. I do utterly disagree with you about Brexit though & think it will be a complete disaster for the country, but I'm just a London lefty who works in the public sector so I would!

No worries. I can be a bit of a pedant myself on occasion. My latest bugbear is with people who don't know how to use there, their and they're! There also seems to be a trend towards misuse (or transposition) of our and are and new and knew for some reason. We were taught those lessons at state run Primary school in the 1960's. Parrot fashion may no longer be in fashion but I can still remember 'The new Gnu went to the zoo. What he was, nobody knew' being drilled into us as young kids learning basic English. I dread to think of some of the things being taught at the moment - another reason I have previously been reluctant to return to UK.

It would be a boring old world if we all agreed on everything. I just hope brexit works out even better than expected for those that want it and as a pleasant surprise for those that don't.

Here is a Brexit effect that I am sure we can all appreciate.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/wetherspoon-cutting-60p-price-drinks-17595782?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

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33 minutes ago, RPG said:

That's possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever read. 

If they're happy with the tax system. They're understand and be happy with how the extra £20 is divided as it's the same system. Absolutely no logic to beat up the 10th one.

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55 minutes ago, pete0 said:

That's possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever read. 

If they're happy with the tax system. They're understand and be happy with how the extra £20 is divided as it's the same system. Absolutely no logic to beat up the 10th one.

Agreed that there is no reason but it does happen and it also highlights a higher principle imho. If we drive high earners out of UK by taxing them too highly then we lose much of the entrepreneurial investment from the workplace, thereby adversely affecting the economy and jobs. There has to be a balance. It is, of course, right in UK for high earners to pay more tax than the low earners, but moderation in all things or higher taxes on the rich will actually end up producing less overall tax revenue.

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We could put our higher rate tax up by 5% and it would still be one of the lowest in the western world, these high earners are going no where. 
I think the common man will soon have to carry the burden of Brexit in all tax brackets, because I believe our government will be offering massive tax breaks to encourage companies to come here and to stop companies leaving, and we will be picking up the bill for it. 
I pay what I consider a huge amount in tax revenue and NI would I be willing to pay another 5% yes definitely, but not if they used it to give companies huge tax breaks. 

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https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2020/01/28/dwp-minister-thinks-foodbanks-are-a-perfect-solution/?fbclid=IwAR0kQqkWzuAeBPLGYMBIRPaAoMU_-Y6sUV6vEq1hVAEIObOUnNHNPPd6Wxw

Does my head in every time I see about food banks. Meant to be a first world country and we've got people who can't even afford to feed themselves. Or should I say a government that starving the very people they're meant to protect. 

Also on a side note, tories who actually donate to food banks need to give their head a wobble. Essentially you're voting to starve people so you can give them a tin of beans and make yourself feel good. If you really want to do something about it cast your vote accordingly. 

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10 hours ago, pete0 said:

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2020/01/28/dwp-minister-thinks-foodbanks-are-a-perfect-solution/?fbclid=IwAR0kQqkWzuAeBPLGYMBIRPaAoMU_-Y6sUV6vEq1hVAEIObOUnNHNPPd6Wxw

Does my head in every time I see about food banks. Meant to be a first world country and we've got people who can't even afford to feed themselves. Or should I say a government that starving the very people they're meant to protect. 

Also on a side note, tories who actually donate to food banks need to give their head a wobble. Essentially you're voting to starve people so you can give them a tin of beans and make yourself feel good. If you really want to do something about it cast your vote accordingly. 

Agree with your sentiments about how there should never be food banks in a first world country pete0 but I suspect we won't ever agree on the causes of them - and, therefore, the solution.

While we have open borders, cheap foreign labour making UK citizens unemployed and are providing welfare to people who have contributed nothing to the welfare system, all we do is stoke demand for welfare even higher and suppress salaries. That is basic Keynesian theory - and Keynes is being defined more and more, nowadays, as a Liberal.

That said, I have no time for zero hours contracts and the like and I can see this Tory government (now that it has such a majority) pushing back against these type of contracts.

The solution lies in controlling demand for welfare not increasing the supply of it imho. Also, controlling immigration (and, with it, the supply of cheap foreign labour) should see employers having to increase salaries and scrap zero hours contracts which will reduce unemployment even further. Combined, these measures should steadily obviate the need for food banks.

Not looking for an argument but we can't continue like we are, and, with Brexit, we obviously aren't doing. Throwing yet more money at welfare would only make the demand on it even higher and require austerity in other areas to fund it. We have to move people into more secure, higher paid, permanent employment. It's better for them and better for UK.

For me, the solution is a strong Tory government (which we have already got) moving slightly to the Left (which seems to be already happening), rather than the extreme left policies of Corbyn and whichever clone replaces him.

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58 minutes ago, RPG said:

Agree with your sentiments about how there should never be food banks in a first world country pete0 but I suspect we won't ever agree on the causes of them - and, therefore, the solution.

While we have open borders, cheap foreign labour making UK citizens unemployed and are providing welfare to people who have contributed nothing to the welfare system, all we do is stoke demand for welfare even higher and suppress salaries. That is basic Keynesian theory - and Keynes is being defined more and more, nowadays, as a Liberal.

Most have left as the cost of living here leaves you with very little disposable income. They don't have any left to send home as the daily mail claims. 

That said, I have no time for zero hours contracts and the like and I can see this Tory government (now that it has such a majority) pushing back against these type of contracts.

They encourage it to disfigure employing stats. Just look at how much Sainsbury's donate to the party. 

The solution lies in controlling demand for welfare not increasing the supply of it imho. Also, controlling immigration (and, with it, the supply of foreign labour) should see employers having to increase salaries and scrap zero hours contracts which will reduce unemployment even further. Combined, these measures should obviate the need for food banks.

That's absolutely nonsensical. Welfare is there as a safety net. It should be supplied based on need full stop. Immigrants are net contributors. As for them lowering wages I'm pretty sure the majority don't get to pick their salary. 

Not looking for an argument but we can't continue like we are, and throwing yet more money at welfare would only make the demand on it even higher and require austerity in other areas to fund it. We have to move people into more secure, higher paid, permanent employment. It's better for them and better for UK.

That would be labour's solution. The tories have done the opposite, lowering employment rights, encouraging zero hour contracts. Tories believe in trickle down and have been making the rich richer but have done nothing to ensure companies distribute that extra wealth. Wages aren't growing fast enough, disposable income is down. 

 

For me, the solution is a strong Tory government (which we have already got) moving slightly to the Left (which seems to be already happening), rather than the extreme left policies of Corbyn and whichever clone replaces him.

Number of food banks before the tory government: 0. What are they doing to reduce the number? 

 

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5 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

Agreed that welfare is a safety net but a safety net for who? Post brexit the number of claimants will, at the very least, stop increasing so much and may well go down.

If we reduce the number of workers in the work force (immigration controls) then salaries have to go up if employers want to employ workers. Further, if a higher percentage of people are in (proper, permanent, fairly paid) work, then the demand on the welfare budget drops. I know this link is from the Express but it is accurate.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1232829/brexit-news-migration-priti-patel-border-controls-boris-johnson

Trickle down theory is fine in theory but I agree, doesn't work well  by itself in practice. I think a top down AND bottom up solution is what Johnson is looking at. Continue with trickle down policies but massively supplement them by a bottom up approach too. When the two initiatives meet, somewhere in the middle, then UK will be well set imho.

Zero hours contracts should go or at the very least, not be someone's only option. No argument there.

Your last para is, on the face of it, fair comment. But for the first time in a long time we now have a Tory government with a massive majority, and a majority that was partially won by traditional Labour strongholds lending their support to the Tory party. That has, quite rightly, to be taken into account in all policy decisions and that is why I think that we will see the Tory party shifting slightly to the left. The effects of any shift to the left are obviously not going to be felt overnight but I hope and believe that there will be some pleasant surprises from this government for those who might class themselves as left of centre.

The opportunity to earn a decent salary and, consequently, not be reliant on food banks would be an ideal place to start, I agree.

Not directly relevant to this conversation but maybe an indication of future government action:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-51298820

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16 hours ago, pete0 said:

MPs expenses allowance per day to rise above what common folk get on universal credit per month. 

https://welfareweekly.com/lords-allowance-more-than-universal-credit/?fbclid=IwAR0cx5tvQ2kPBRnHX6SDFN0e03YB6gFlbZTMPVuS-hNrkMJ74hGW8tw4bbM

Thats not MPs expenses Pete, members in the house of lords aren't salaried that allowance is it.

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

Thats not MPs expenses Pete, members in the house of lords aren't salaried that allowance is it.

Plus their travel expenses are paid and the poor impoverished guys have subsidised restaurant facilities; how's anyone supposed to survive on £323 a day?

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34 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Plus their travel expenses are paid and the poor impoverished guys have subsidised restaurant facilities; how's anyone supposed to survive on £323 a day?

Be fair Mike.  During the recent storms, some of the poor guys won't have been able to get into London.  I think they have to sign in to get their money?  (Talking about the Lords here)

(this is an ironic post!ūüėĀ)

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9 minutes ago, johnh said:

Be fair Mike.  During the recent storms, some of the poor guys won't have been able to get into London.  I think they have to sign in to get their money?  (Talking about the Lords here)

(this is an ironic post!ūüėĀ)

So very similar to Universal Credit then!:unsure:

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3 hours ago, MikeO said:

Plus their travel expenses are paid and the poor impoverished guys have subsidised restaurant facilities; how's anyone supposed to survive on £323 a day?

Makes your blood boil their¬†all there on a jolly, contributing the sum of diddly squat ūüė°

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11 hours ago, MikeO said:

Plus their travel expenses are paid and the poor impoverished guys have subsidised restaurant facilities; how's anyone supposed to survive on £323 a day?

The comparison to UC is bogus though, whether you agree with the function they perform is a different matter as is whether the level of UC is high enough, the remuneration for politicians needs to be commensurate with industry. There's likely people on this thread who earn more than a MP so not surprising we're not attracting the best and brightest.

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21 minutes ago, Chach said:

The comparison to UC is bogus though, whether you agree with the function they perform is a different matter as is whether the level of UC is high enough, the remuneration for politicians needs to be commensurate with industry. There's likely people on this thread who earn more than a MP so not surprising we're not attracting the best and brightest.

Why? Politians should be doing their best for the people. If anything any of them only there for the money should be fucked off as there greed will influence them to pick their own needs ahead of the nations. 

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13 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Why? Politians should be doing their best for the people. If anything any of them only there for the money should be fucked off as there greed will influence them to pick their own needs ahead of the nations. 

I don't consider it greedy to want to earn somewhere approaching your earning potential, I also disagree with the last part of your statement and its evidently true that the more comfortable people are (I'm not talking about the super rich here, I am talking comfortable) the more they are inclined to care about the vulnerable in society which is why inner city types are more likely to vote for progressive parties.

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2 minutes ago, Chach said:

I don't consider it greedy to want to earn somewhere approaching your earning potential, I also disagree with the last part of your statement and its evidently true that the more comfortable people are (I'm not talking about the super rich here, I am talking comfortable) the more they are inclined to care about the vulnerable in society which is why inner city types are more likely to vote for progressive parties.

Any evidence of that? Beyond the North West I don't see any rich boroughs voting Labour. 

The whole point of a politician is to put your country and the people before yourself. Earning potential shouldn't come into it as if you're doing that you're not gonna maximise the wellbeing of the county. 

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5 minutes ago, Chach said:

I don't consider it greedy to want to earn somewhere approaching your earning potential, I also disagree with the last part of your statement and its evidently true that the more comfortable people are (I'm not talking about the super rich here, I am talking comfortable) the more they are inclined to care about the vulnerable in society which is why inner city types are more likely to vote for progressive parties.

Progressives are the most fascist people on the face of the earth. They believe it is quaint that they employ polish baby sitters or get their coffee from Italian baristas. But more importantly they dont give a damn that their car is washed my an illegal immigrant on less than minimum wage or that their clothes and consumer goods are made at a Chinese or Vietnamese sweat shop.

They live in cloud cuckoo land and have no idea how the real world works. They look at ethnic minorities as an easy vote and feel entitled to their servitude.

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2 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Any evidence of that? Beyond the North West I don't see any rich boroughs voting Labour. 

The whole point of a politician is to put your country and the people before yourself. Earning potential shouldn't come into it as if you're doing that you're not gonna maximise the wellbeing of the county. 

Labour are a failed party. They allowed themselves to be overtaken by cultural marxists and will die on that hill. They're still up there insisting they have some sort of moral high ground whilst they pander to anyone and anything that might throw a vote on their way, so long as they aren't the white working class.

I'm not able to vote as not a single political party is anywhere near my alignment and so I must say with a heavy heart that this country has no future and sectarian violence is inevitable. 

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5 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Any evidence of that? Beyond the North West I don't see any rich boroughs voting Labour. 

The whole point of a politician is to put your country and the people before yourself. Earning potential shouldn't come into it as if you're doing that you're not gonna maximise the wellbeing of the county. 

In an election where Labour were decimated they won a majority of the seats in London. I'm not just referring to the UK there either its a Western thing, the more comfortable people are the more they care about social issues in general, climate change, LGBTI rights etc.

I see your sentiment but I don't think politics should or needs to be such an all encompassing sacrifice, it's human nature to worry about your own households needs before you worry about other peoples.

 

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1 minute ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Labour are a failed party. They allowed themselves to be overtaken by cultural marxists and will die on that hill. They're still up there insisting they have some sort of moral high ground whilst they pander to anyone and anything that might throw a vote on their way, so long as they aren't the white working class.

I'm not able to vote as not a single political party is anywhere near my alignment and so I must say with a heavy heart that this country has no future and sectarian violence is inevitable. 

80+% of Liverpool got behind them, and as far as I'm aware it's mostly white working class. One of if not the biggest margin in the country. No coincidence that were also the least media influenced. Labour were cheated by a media no better than North Korea's. Do you blame the opposition for 'letting' the Nazis get into power? 

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1 minute ago, Chach said:

In an election where Labour were decimated they won a majority of the seats in London. I'm not just referring to the UK there either its a Western thing, the more comfortable people are the more they care about social issues in general, climate change, LGBTI rights etc.

I see your sentiment but I don't think politics should or needs to be such an all encompassing sacrifice, it's human nature to worry about your own households needs before you worry about other peoples.

 

Completely disagree. Bar your mental health you should never put someone before yourself. 

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1 minute ago, pete0 said:

Completely disagree. Bar your mental health you should never put someone before yourself. 

What are you disagreeing with there? My point is the same sentiment.

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1 minute ago, Chach said:

What are you disagreeing with there? My point is the same sentiment.

You say it's human nature to put your own needs first. For me a politician should see the whole country as his household and do the best for everyone. 

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6 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Do you blame the opposition for 'letting' the Nazis get into power? 

This is a bad example mate, the opposition in that instance actually acquiesced to the removal of the democratic apparatus that resulted in Germany becoming a dictatorship.  

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1 minute ago, Chach said:

This is a bad example mate, the opposition in that instance actually acquiesced to the removal of the democratic apparatus that resulted in Germany becoming a dictatorship.  

My bad ūüĖźÔłŹ. Point still stands, the other parties then.¬†

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27 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Progressives are the most fascist people on the face of the earth. They believe it is quaint that they employ polish baby sitters or get their coffee from Italian baristas. But more importantly they dont give a damn that their car is washed my an illegal immigrant on less than minimum wage or that their clothes and consumer goods are made at a Chinese or Vietnamese sweat shop.

They live in cloud cuckoo land and have no idea how the real world works. They look at ethnic minorities as an easy vote and feel entitled to their servitude.

Progressives have been guilty of some hypocrisy but Jesus mate, try and keep a little bit of balance. That is not Fascism.

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7 hours ago, Chach said:

Progressives have been guilty of some hypocrisy but Jesus mate, try and keep a little bit of balance. That is not Fascism.

You're right, I got my monikers wrong, there is a distinct twist of communism around many progressives. There's nothing more pathetic than seeing upper middle class mummy's boys protesting under Socialist Worker banners and chanting "The Workers United".

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7 hours ago, pete0 said:

80+% of Liverpool got behind them, and as far as I'm aware it's mostly white working class. One of if not the biggest margin in the country. No coincidence that were also the least media influenced. Labour were cheated by a media no better than North Korea's. Do you blame the opposition for 'letting' the Nazis get into power? 

Liverpool stands out for being very politically left leaning, like most metropolitan areas really except it still maintains a lot of it's local identity. It also is living in the hang over of Thatcherism and votes to keep tories out rather than to back Labour.

Labour won the student votes after the betrayal of the Lib Dems over tuition fees so a lot of the middle class students vote that way now where they previously would have voted Lib Dem.

We may not like it but we are beginning to see sectarianism form in this country, just like in the US really. Labour, like the Democrats in the US, have aligned themselves with multi-culturalism and chase the immigrant vote. The white working classes have been fooled into thinking that they should vote Tory/Republican when really nobody has their best interests in mind.

Again, I will stress, we might not like this idea but look at the voting demographics and it explains the rise of populism and nationalism across the country and the western world really.

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8 hours ago, Chach said:

In an election where Labour were decimated they won a majority of the seats in London. I'm not just referring to the UK there either its a Western thing, the more comfortable people are the more they care about social issues in general, climate change, LGBTI rights etc.

I see your sentiment but I don't think politics should or needs to be such an all encompassing sacrifice, it's human nature to worry about your own households needs before you worry about other peoples.

 

And therein lies the problem. The vast majority of ordinary people across the western world are still living just above the poverty line.

Any extended period of unemployment would put me and most people in very deep water and I'm in quite a privileged position being a skilled tradesman and having a bit of equity in my house that I could unlock if needed. Many many people are upside down on their mortgages or are hamstrung by their rent.

When you live this way, worrying about money all the time then the issue of whether a trans person should use a male or female toilet is utterly irrelevant and to some it is absolutely bohemian. The trans issue, by the way, is what is causing a fall in support for LGBT groups in general. You can cut your genitals off, I will call you whatever pronoun you like and treat you with the upmost respect, but you can never make me actually believe that you are now a woman.

This is what has driven the working classes away from Labour and the Left in general. The comfortably wealthy leaders of the Labour Party are completely out of touch with reality. They are in thrall to middle class liberals in places like Kensington and to the trendy student groups that are completely intolerant of the working class.

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41 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Liverpool stands out for being very politically left leaning, like most metropolitan areas really except it still maintains a lot of it's local identity. It also is living in the hang over of Thatcherism and votes to keep tories out rather than to back Labour.

Labour won the student votes after the betrayal of the Lib Dems over tuition fees so a lot of the middle class students vote that way now where they previously would have voted Lib Dem.

We may not like it but we are beginning to see sectarianism form in this country, just like in the US really. Labour, like the Democrats in the US, have aligned themselves with multi-culturalism and chase the immigrant vote. The white working classes have been fooled into thinking that they should vote Tory/Republican when really nobody has their best interests in mind.

Again, I will stress, we might not like this idea but look at the voting demographics and it explains the rise of populism and nationalism across the country and the western world really.

Think the chanting of oh Jeremy Corbyn and a heavy backing of unions in general show Liverpool back labour. You say the anti b thatcher like we'd vote tory if it wasn't for a chip on our shoulder. Most on this city find tories to be disgusting because of how they treat people, you don't need to look back at thatcher for that the last decade shows enough. 

The white working class have been fooled. But that's by the far right media. You can't blame Labour for that. 

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45 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

You're right, I got my monikers wrong, there is a distinct twist of communism around many progressives. There's nothing more pathetic than seeing upper middle class mummy's boys protesting under Socialist Worker banners and chanting "The Workers United".

That Momentum crew have a very authoritarian bent, not even interested in any other candidate and just want to install Long-Bailey as the new Labour leader.

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