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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-homeless-rough-sleepers-hostel-shelter-government-england-a9429471.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3PN9sFg0c6eh0ios4eSJOPntCfkISqs00rO19XRbpBwNkIwZGLfe0434M#Echobox=1585299390

Homelessness to be solved only two weeks into a crisis yet the tories couldn't do anything for them the past decade. 

They also made social aid pitiful, yet in 2 weeks recognise 80% of a wage is a more reasonable system than the draconian one they championed. 

Shameless cunts even clapped last night for the NHS, that same NHS they have purposely managed a decline which has made the crises that much more difficult to handle by staff that were before the outbreak under resourced (and underpayed). Now they are sourcing beds and throwing funds about for a pop up mass hospital... Only so they can purposely let more people get ill as they manage the sick with their wishy washy policies rather than actually try to help and just do what's best. 

Austerity and trickle down has well and truly been found out. Any one who is still tory after this needs to give their head a good wobble. 

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16 minutes ago, pete0 said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-homeless-rough-sleepers-hostel-shelter-government-england-a9429471.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3PN9sFg0c6eh0ios4eSJOPntCfkISqs00rO19XRbpBwNkIwZGLfe0434M#Echobox=1585299390

Homelessness to be solved only two weeks into a crisis yet the tories couldn't do anything for them the past decade. 

They also made social aid pitiful, yet in 2 weeks recognise 80% of a wage is a more reasonable system than the draconian one they championed. 

Shameless cunts even clapped last night for the NHS, that same NHS they have purposely managed a decline which has made the crises that much more difficult to handle by staff that were before the outbreak under resourced (and underpayed). Now they are sourcing beds and throwing funds about for a pop up mass hospital... Only so they can purposely let more people get ill as they manage the sick with their wishy washy policies rather than actually try to help and just do what's best. 

Austerity and trickle down has well and truly been found out. Any one who is still tory after this needs to give their head a good wobble. 

I am sure you won't be surprised to learn that I disagree with your sentiments. The fact of the matter is that the tory party has a massive majority and the electorate voted that way for a reason.

BoJo is only 4 months into the job and has had to spend most of that time dealing with brexit and Covid-19. He has made assurances to the previously Labour voters who voted tory in rather large numbers and, once the dust is settling on Covid-19 and brexit (hopefully, even earlier) I am confident those assurances will be honoured.

Can we not at least give the guy a chance. If he stuffs it up I will be joining in the criticism but I do think it unfair to judge him as PM in only 4 months and when he has not really had a chance to focus on what might be called normal politics.

I do think that Boris knows that austerity and trickle down needs supporting by investment, government support and a 'trickle up' policy. When trickle down meets trickle up the economy should grow in leaps and bounds.

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

I am sure you won't be surprised to learn that I disagree with your sentiments. The fact of the matter is that the tory party has a massive majority and the electorate voted that way for a reason.

BoJo is only 4 months into the job and has had to spend most of that time dealing with brexit and Covid-19. He has made assurances to the previously Labour voters who voted tory in rather large numbers and, once the dust is settling on Covid-19 and brexit (hopefully, even earlier) I am confident those assurances will be honoured.

Can we not at least give the guy a chance. If he stuffs it up I will be joining in the criticism but I do think it unfair to judge him as PM in only 4 months and when he has not really had a chance to focus on what might be called normal politics.

I do think that Boris knows that austerity and trickle down needs supporting by investment, government support and a 'trickle up' policy. When trickle down meets trickle up the economy should grow in leaps and bounds.

How can you disagree with facts? 

What bits do you disagree with? And how so? 

Was BJ not voting with his party? I'm holding them all accountable, murderers. 

As for trickle up. It's been over a decade. What have they got in place to close the gap between the rich and poor. When was the last time you lived here as the disparity is alarming, the rich are getting richer yet the poor are getting poorer. Poverty is rife, kids are going without food. 

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12 hours ago, pete0 said:

How can you disagree with facts? 

What bits do you disagree with? And how so? 

Was BJ not voting with his party? I'm holding them all accountable, murderers. 

As for trickle up. It's been over a decade. What have they got in place to close the gap between the rich and poor. When was the last time you lived here as the disparity is alarming, the rich are getting richer yet the poor are getting poorer. Poverty is rife, kids are going without food. 

BoJo has only been PM 4 months. He has been busy with Brexit and Covid-19 for much (all) of that time but has vowed to honour his promise to the many thousands of former Labour voters who abandoned Labour and voted Tory in GE19. I believe him. What you are doing is akin to saying you don't like Everton's style of football while the score is still 0-0 after 20 minutes of one game of a new season with a new manager and coaching staff in charge and that we should sack the entire management and coaching team. It makes no logical sense Pete. We would probably have sacked Howard Kendall if not for the Kevin Brock back pass at Oxford and would then have missed out on the most successful period in our entire history. Let's not make that mistake with BoJo. The electorate have put him in No.10 with a massive majority and, so far, I (and most people in UK I speak with) think he is doing a good job under extremely difficult circumstances. You don't have to like him but I do think you should respect the decision of the electorate and give him a fair chance.

The quote below was copied from a friend's facebook page while many people were busy ignoring common sense advice to self isolate, treating it as a holiday even, and I think it highlights what BoJo is up against and the sad state of some small sections of UK society.

THIS IS THE UK RIGHT NOW....!!!!!!!!!!!

Public: how can I pay my rent 
Boris: grants and freezing mortgages

Public: what about my business
Boris: 12months interest free grants 

Public: what about my kids 
Boris:close schools

Public: what about my job
Boris: your employer cannot sack you due to this pandemic period 

Public:What about my wages
Boris: pay 80% of your wages 

Boris: please stay indoors as much as possible and avoid contact
Public: f&ck off.

Asked to do 1 simple thing and we as a nation struggle.  Stop being selfish bastards and for once in your f&cking life think of others before yourselves

Copy & paste to get the message out there

 

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2 hours ago, RPG said:

BoJo has only been PM 4 months. He has been busy with Brexit and Covid-19 for much (all) of that time but has vowed to honour his promise to the many thousands of former Labour voters who abandoned Labour and voted Tory in GE19. I believe him. What you are doing is akin to saying you don't like Everton's style of football while the score is still 0-0 after 20 minutes of one game of a new season with a new manager and coaching staff in charge and that we should sack the entire management and coaching team. It makes no logical sense Pete. We would probably have sacked Howard Kendall if not for the Kevin Brock back pass at Oxford and would then have missed out on the most successful period in our entire history. Let's not make that mistake with BoJo. The electorate have put him in No.10 with a massive majority and, so far, I (and most people in UK I speak with) think he is doing a good job under extremely difficult circumstances. You don't have to like him but I do think you should respect the decision of the electorate and give him a fair chance.

The quote below was copied from a friend's facebook page while many people were busy ignoring common sense advice to self isolate, treating it as a holiday even, and I think it highlights what BoJo is up against and the sad state of some small sections of UK society.

THIS IS THE UK RIGHT NOW....!!!!!!!!!!!

Public: how can I pay my rent 
Boris: grants and freezing mortgages

Public: what about my business
Boris: 12months interest free grants 

Public: what about my kids 
Boris:close schools

Public: what about my job
Boris: your employer cannot sack you due to this pandemic period 

Public:What about my wages
Boris: pay 80% of your wages 

Boris: please stay indoors as much as possible and avoid contact
Public: f&ck off.

Asked to do 1 simple thing and we as a nation struggle.  Stop being selfish bastards and for once in your f&cking life think of others before yourselves

Copy & paste to get the message out there

 

Public: are non essential workers still aloud to go to work.  
Boris: Yes if you cannot work from home. 
Public: How is that right when you said only essential workers to work and everyone else stay at home. 
Boris: ( Long pause ) I have taken the advice from the medical professionals. 

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58 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Public: are non essential workers still aloud to go to work.  
Boris: Yes if you cannot work from home. 
Public: How is that right when you said only essential workers to work and everyone else stay at home. 
Boris: ( Long pause ) I have taken the advice from the medical professionals. 

I think you answered your own point there Palfy.

To be fair, I haven't seen the interview or comments by BoJo that you refer to but the points I made do still hold good.

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1 minute ago, RPG said:

I think you answered your own point there Palfy.

I have he makes it up as he goes along the same as Trump, to world leaders who are bumbling their way through politics. 

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3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I have he makes it up as he goes along the same as Trump, to world leaders who are bumbling their way through politics. 

Quite clearly, he does not. He takes the advice of the apolitical experts, then acts on their advice.

Whether that advice is 100% correct, 100% of the time is unlikely. But that is the nature of the battle we are facing. Some decisions may be changed because they were inappropriate. Other decisions may have been appropriate when made but now need to evolve to combat the very dynamic enemy that we are fighting. It is not a binary, yes/no or right/wrong environment we are in and procedures need to evolve and strategies may even need to change as we learn more about the virus we are fighting.

I am sure there are many decisions yet to be made, processes to be started and priorities to be allocated. Every life is important but we also need to try to maintain all the other aspects of society (albeit in many cases on a back burner) as much as we can so we have a society and an economy to return to once this virus is beaten.

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

Quite clearly, he does not. He takes the advice of the apolitical experts, then acts on their advice.

Whether that advice is 100% correct, 100% of the time is unlikely. But that is the nature of the battle we are facing. Some decisions may be changed because they were inappropriate. Other decisions may have been appropriate when made but now need to evolve to combat the very dynamic enemy that we are fighting. It is not a binary, yes/no or right/wrong environment we are in and procedures need to evolve and strategies may even need to change as we learn more about the virus we are fighting.

I am sure there are many decisions yet to be made, processes to be started and priorities to be allocated. Every life is important but we also need to try to maintain all the other aspects of society (albeit in many cases on a back burner) as much as we can so we have a society and an economy to return to once this virus is beaten.

Quite clearly he does or he wouldn’t have made two contradictory statements, and that was also the case of his cabinet ministers all within a few hours of themselves. 
Shall we open the door yes, oh know wait let’s shut the door, now I’m not sure shall we leave the door ajar, fuck it let’s toss a coin heads open tails closed but I’m not calling the shout we haven’t got an option for ajar. 🤷‍♂️

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10 hours ago, RPG said:

BoJo has only been PM 4 months. He has been busy with Brexit and Covid-19 for much (all) of that time but has vowed to honour his promise to the many thousands of former Labour voters who abandoned Labour and voted Tory in GE19. I believe him. What you are doing is akin to saying you don't like Everton's style of football while the score is still 0-0 after 20 minutes of one game of a new season with a new manager and coaching staff in charge and that we should sack the entire management and coaching team. It makes no logical sense Pete. We would probably have sacked Howard Kendall if not for the Kevin Brock back pass at Oxford and would then have missed out on the most successful period in our entire history. Let's not make that mistake with BoJo. The electorate have put him in No.10 with a massive majority and, so far, I (and most people in UK I speak with) think he is doing a good job under extremely difficult circumstances. You don't have to like him but I do think you should respect the decision of the electorate and give him a fair chance.

Well that's just bollocks. Go ask the workforce who are unnecessarily at risk. Why should I respect our Hitler? Majority does not mean right, atm it means far right greedy racist idiots. 

The quote below was copied from a friend's facebook page while many people were busy ignoring common sense advice to self isolate, treating it as a holiday even, and I think it highlights what BoJo is up against and the sad state of some small sections of UK society.

THIS IS THE UK RIGHT NOW....!!!!!!!!!!!

Public: how can I pay my rent 
Boris: grants and freezing mortgages

Public: what about my business
Boris: 12months interest free grants 

Public: what about my kids 
Boris:close schools

Public: what about my job
Boris: your employer cannot sack you due to this pandemic period 

Public:What about my wages
Boris: pay 80% of your wages 

Boris: please stay indoors as much as possible and avoid contact
Public: f&ck off.

Asked to do 1 simple thing and we as a nation struggle.  Stop being selfish bastards and for once in your f&cking life think of others before yourselves

Copy & paste to get the message out there

But that's all talk and very little action. As Palfy has pointed out people are still unnecessarily going to work. Why haven't we froozen mortgages and rents like Italy? If we see nationalised we'd also be able to sort out bills. All bj has done is close the schools and told parents they can't leave them at nan and grandads, so those who can't work from home are having to stay off UNPAID to look after their kids whilst potentially the other parent is off to work in an office/warehouse and coming back with the germ any way. 

 

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57 days after the first case Covid 19 confirmed in this country, we are just starting to test NHS staff at 1 drive in testing station at the car park of Chessingtons world of adventures, how apt it’s there a theme park that I doubt this government could run. 
A shocking indictment of how little this government has done in 57 days. 

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10 hours ago, pete0 said:

91094310_1302770953254845_28108583807074

 

Straight from the left wing play book.

Before we get in an argument, though, I am not disagreeing with some of that. But you present it with no context as to the real life situation that we are in and no thought for how we ensure we protect jobs and businesses so we have a society and an economy to support it to return to.

To try to answer your points.

1- In some cases yes, in some cases no. In many cases, yes, but not as efficiently. Ultimately, he who pays the piper calls the tune. And, from the left wing point of view, really shooting yourself in the foot. If UK corporations discover that jobs can be done on line from home, they won't be done from UK homes will they. They will be done from second or third world homes at a fraction of the price. And the fallout from that will be massive loss of UK jobs.

2- That is your jaundiced opinion. Proof please.

3- It is actually both a luxury and a utility. Depends what you use it for.

4- No, it isn't. It is ideologically desirable. Practically, it would be prohibitively expensive and have the very people who advocated it out on the streets rioting at the tax rises and consequential massive increase in cost of living necessary to pay for it. And riots on the streets is exactly what certain extreme political elements are striving to achieve.

5- No, the current solution for homelessness is, sadly, very much a temporary one.

6- Correct statement but what is your point?

7- Define 'live on.' It certainly isn't enough to pay for booze, cigarettes and tv subscriptions. But that isn't what it is designed for. That said, it wouldn't do any harm to double it and I do agree it is not enough at present.

8- Wages, like prices, are subject to market forces. Always have been. Always will be.

9- Not true. Those individuals with most control over and most to offer society and whose absence would be felt most by society get tested first. That doesn't infer a lack of care to everyone else but in a world of limited resources we have to prioritise. That basically means leadership teams (government) and front line staff first. That is why NHS staff are getting tested before you. Always a couple of exceptions of course but the general rule holds true.

10- Unfortunately, not true at all. We all have a role to play but the harsh reality is that some people can be replaced (or their contribution not missed) more easily than others. That does not absolve society of its duty of care to the most vulnerable and we should obviously continue to look after them as much as we can but the harsh fact is that the world will continue to turn on its axis with or without them. I know that sounds harsh but crisis management sometimes needs to be. To try to infer otherwise is just ideological nonsense. It doesn't mean we don't care. It does mean we act responsibly and don't hide from difficult decisions when they need to be made. Simple analogy: If you were a passenger in a plane with 400+ other passengers and there had been a bad outbreak of food poisoning in flight which rendered almost everyone on board incapacitated, who would you want looking after first, the elderly and 'vulnerable' passenger sat next to you or the only conscious pilot? Both are nearly unconscious, delerious and you are mid Atlantic and over 2 hours from the nearest airport. There is one unaffected doctor on board. Not so easy now, is it.

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56 minutes ago, RPG said:

Straight from the left wing play book.

I thought the complete opposite, start with number 1:

The job you were told couldn't be done remotely, can be done remotely. 

No thinking left winger with a basic understanding of Keynesian economics would want to abandon working in offices, the amount of indirect jobs lost from that transition would make the closing of the coal mines look like The Sound of Music.

Unfortunately when corporations do discover that the job can be done remotely, stage 2 will that job being done in a 2nd world country by someone who will do it for a fraction of the salary.

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4 minutes ago, Chach said:

I thought the complete opposite, start with number 1:

The job you were told couldn't be done remotely, can be done remotely. 

No thinking left winger with a basic understanding of Keynesian economics would want to abandon working in offices, the amount of indirect jobs lost from that transition would make the closing of the coal mines look like The Sound of Music.

Unfortunately when corporations do discover that the job can be done remotely, stage 2 will that job being done in a 2nd world country by someone who will do it for a fraction of the salary.

I wasn't going to complicate the issue by raising that point but you are, of course, absolutely correct.

Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas!

In fact, I will edit my response to incorporate your excellent point.

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5 hours ago, RPG said:

Straight from the left wing play book.

Before we get in an argument, though, I am not disagreeing with some of that. But you present it with no context as to the real life situation that we are in and no thought for how we ensure we protect jobs and businesses so we have a society and an economy to support it to return to.

To try to answer your points.

1- In some cases yes, in some cases no. In many cases, yes, but not as efficiently. Ultimately, he who pays the piper calls the tune. And, from the left wing point of view, really shooting yourself in the foot. If UK corporations discover that jobs can be done on line from home, they won't be done from UK homes will they. They will be done from second or third world homes at a fraction of the price. And the fallout from that will be massive loss of UK jobs.

2- That is your jaundiced opinion. Proof please.

3- It is actually both a luxury and a utility. Depends what you use it for.

4- No, it isn't. It is ideologically desirable. Practically, it would be prohibitively expensive and have the very people who advocated it out on the streets rioting at the tax rises and consequential massive increase in cost of living necessary to pay for it. And riots on the streets is exactly what certain extreme political elements are striving to achieve.

5- No, the current solution for homelessness is, sadly, very much a temporary one.

6- Correct statement but what is your point?

7- Define 'live on.' It certainly isn't enough to pay for booze, cigarettes and tv subscriptions. But that isn't what it is designed for. That said, it wouldn't do any harm to double it and I do agree it is not enough at present.

8- Wages, like prices, are subject to market forces. Always have been. Always will be.

9- Not true. Those individuals with most control over and most to offer society and whose absence would be felt most by society get tested first. That doesn't infer a lack of care to everyone else but in a world of limited resources we have to prioritise. That basically means leadership teams (government) and front line staff first. That is why NHS staff are getting tested before you. Always a couple of exceptions of course but the general rule holds true.

10- Unfortunately, not true at all. We all have a role to play but the harsh reality is that some people can be replaced (or their contribution not missed) more easily than others. That does not absolve society of its duty of care to the most vulnerable and we should obviously continue to look after them as much as we can but the harsh fact is that the world will continue to turn on its axis with or without them. I know that sounds harsh but crisis management sometimes needs to be. To try to infer otherwise is just ideological nonsense. It doesn't mean we don't care. It does mean we act responsibly and don't hide from difficult decisions when they need to be made. Simple analogy: If you were a passenger in a plane with 400+ other passengers and there had been a bad outbreak of food poisoning in flight which rendered almost everyone on board incapacitated, who would you want looking after first, the elderly and 'vulnerable' passenger sat next to you or the only conscious pilot? Both are nearly unconscious, delerious and you are mid Atlantic and over 2 hours from the nearest airport. There is one unaffected doctor on board. Not so easy now, is it.

I'm not gonna waste my time with a full response. You need a better education and I'm not gonna waste my time. 

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What you both seem to not understand is what keeps the economy going which is people working and spending their earnings in the country they live, if you believe that British companies will wholesale take their jobs to countries with cheaper labour rates, which would then leave them with no end users  in the country they trade in to sell their products or services to, because people won’t have jobs or the finances to buy their products or services then I’m stunned, and I think any government would introduce laws and penalties to stop any mass exodus of jobs in a global down turn of the magnitude you see for the future, even a Tory government wouldn’t standby an allow that to happen. 
But in reality none of us will ever really know until it happens. 
 

And also wouldn’t it be better now more than ever to be in the biggest free trading block in the world, that also has powers to make sure by consensus of 28 members to make laws that companies would have to adhere to if they wished to trade with the biggest trade block in the world. 

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6 minutes ago, Palfy said:

What you both seem to not understand is what keeps the economy going which is people working and spending their earnings in the country they live, if you believe that British companies will wholesale take their jobs to countries with cheaper labour rates, which would then leave them with no end user in the country they trade in to sell their products or services to, because people won’t have jobs or the finances to buy their products or services then I’m stunned, and I think any government would introduce laws and penalties to stop any mass exodus of jobs in a global down turn of the magnitude you see for the future, even a Tory government wouldn’t standby an allow that to happen. 
But in reality none of us will ever really know until it happens. 

In essence that's what the tory government has done but not with jobs, but with the profits. This tory bubble is unsustainable. Wages are drove so low that the bottom pay little in taxes and need help to pay the rent. Which leads on to disposable pay being so low a large proportion have very little left after rent and bills to spend in our economy. And what is spent in the UK is taken out to the Cayman Islands by the Brits running it or by the foreign owners of the company to spend elsewhere in the world. 

Tories argue for low corporation tax to attract employers but that is only justified if the employers pay good wages so you can negate the corporation tax loss via the additional PAYE. However we have low wages and low employee rights also to attract employers or should I say exploit workers. Any how you can't have both these policies, and it's no surprise that national debt in the UK is rising even though companies are making more profit than ever. Until that profit is shifted to the employees we're fucked, the tories are taking all the fish out of the pond.

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3 hours ago, pete0 said:

In essence that's what the tory government has done but not with jobs, but with the profits. This tory bubble is unsustainable. Wages are drove so low that the bottom pay little in taxes and need help to pay the rent. Which leads on to disposable pay being so low a large proportion have very little left after rent and bills to spend in our economy. And what is spent in the UK is taken out to the Cayman Islands by the Brits running it or by the foreign owners of the company to spend elsewhere in the world. 

Tories argue for low corporation tax to attract employers but that is only justified if the employers pay good wages so you can negate the corporation tax loss via the additional PAYE. However we have low wages and low employee rights also to attract employers or should I say exploit workers. Any how you can't have both these policies, and it's no surprise that national debt in the UK is rising even though companies are making more profit than ever. Until that profit is shifted to the employees we're fucked, the tories are taking all the fish out of the pond.

But the Labour government of the 1970's actually drove the people that generated employment and industry out of the country with their supertax and generally high taxation. That badly affected the economy, inflation, unemployment etc.

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4 hours ago, Palfy said:

And also wouldn’t it be better now more than ever to be in the biggest free trading block in the world, that also has powers to make sure by consensus of 28 members to make laws that companies would have to adhere to if they wished to trade with the biggest trade block in the world. 

No, it wouldn't.

For all sorts of reasons, but mainly because it would disrespect democracy. I am not going to open up the entire brexit debate again but we have made our decision to trade with the entire world on our own terms rather than EU on their terms and, long term, we will be better off for it. It also immediately extracts us from the creeping political integration and federalism that was seeing us being frogmarched to a United States of Europe. So, its a big no from me.

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4 hours ago, pete0 said:

I'm not gonna waste my time with a full response. You need a better education and I'm not gonna waste my time. 

I'll take that to mean you are unable to come up with a meaningful reply.

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5 minutes ago, RPG said:

No, it wouldn't.

For all sorts of reasons, but mainly because it would disrespect democracy. I am not going to open up the entire brexit debate again but we have made our decision to trade with the entire world on our own terms rather than EU on their terms and, long term, we will be better off for it. It also immediately extracts us from the creeping political integration and federalism that was seeing us being frogmarched to a United States of Europe. So, its a big no from me.

But in hindsight in the next 18 months it could prove to be the worse decision ever made. 
So I say yes it is. 

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13 minutes ago, RPG said:

But the Labour government of the 1970's actually drove the people that generated employment and industry out of the country with their supertax and generally high taxation. That badly affected the economy, inflation, unemployment etc.

What's the relevance of a government 50 years ago got to do with a decade of failings from the current government?

5 minutes ago, RPG said:

I'll take that to mean you are unable to come up with a meaningful reply.

You're a capitalist. Give me a million quid and I'll educate you. 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

But in hindsight in the next 18 months it could prove to be the worse decision ever made. 
So I say yes it is. 

But the electorate decided, the government have acted and if you still advocate Remain, it is too late. If you advocate Leave, it makes no difference.

I guess that what I am saying is that we can each have our opinions but as far as they regard brexit, the deed is done. I may think that brexit is a good thing, you may think it bad, but the deed is still done.

The UK is still part of an international community that is united (more or less) in the fight against Covid-19. Being free of EU dictats means we can tailor any measures specifically for UK and still prepare trade deals with the rest of the world on our terms rather than with or via EU on their terms. By leaving EU our market place is expanding not contracting.

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

You're a capitalist. Give me a million quid and I'll educate you.

Now who's the capitalist!

I am just right of centre in my political views. You are either avoiding or incapable of answering my detailed reply a few posts ago.

I have far better things to do with a £ million than let you try (and fail) to brainwash me with it.

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12 minutes ago, RPG said:

But the electorate decided, the government have acted and if you still advocate Remain, it is too late. If you advocate Leave, it makes no difference.

I guess that what I am saying is that we can each have our opinions but as far as they regard brexit, the deed is done. I may think that brexit is a good thing, you may think it bad, but the deed is still done.

I thought you said you weren’t going to open up on the Brexit debate again, I know it’s hard for you because it’s only thing you come on here for, but please try to stick to your word or remember what you posted in your previous post. 
I wasn’t debating whether we should Brexit or Remain, I was merely saying that if the world’s economies shrink and businesses look to relocate, we would have had more leverage in the world’s biggest free trading block and union. 

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6 hours ago, Palfy said:

What you both seem to not understand is what keeps the economy going which is people working and spending their earnings in the country they live, if you believe that British companies will wholesale take their jobs to countries with cheaper labour rates, which would then leave them with no end users  in the country they trade in to sell their products or services to, because people won’t have jobs or the finances to buy their products or services then I’m stunned, and I think any government would introduce laws and penalties to stop any mass exodus of jobs in a global down turn of the magnitude you see for the future, even a Tory government wouldn’t standby an allow that to happen. 
But in reality none of us will ever really know until it happens. .

Very few global companies (or even national ones) have the sort of social conscience you describe. The first loyalty is always to the shareholders. That means maximising profit and dividends. If that means outsourcing to WFH from third world countries they will do it in a heartbeat.

I do agree that there could be negative consequences for domestic purchasing power in those circumstances but if enough of the business is delivered overseas then the effects of loss of purchasing power by consumers in UK may be viewed as being more than compensated for by cheaper labour costs and UK overheads.

Would government legislate against WFH from third world countries? None of us know the answer to that.

You say you are stunned that any government would allow that. But isn't that exactly what freedom of movement in EU would have continued to allow had we not left EU? Not due WFH but from cheap EU labour driving down UK wages, sending most of the salary back to their home country and increasing UK unemployment.

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23 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I thought you said you weren’t going to open up on the Brexit debate again, I know it’s hard for you because it’s only thing you come on here for, but please try to stick to your word or remember what you posted in your previous post. 
I wasn’t debating whether we should Brexit or Remain, I was merely saying that if the world’s economies shrink and businesses look to relocate, we would have had more leverage in the world’s biggest free trading block and union. 

That is exactly what I was alluding to. Our market place has expanded, not contracted, and we don't have to waste (sometimes) years seeking concensus from 27 other countries to get deals over the line. So, no, I still think it is the right thing and that it won't be regarded as a mistake. And we can't cherry pick aspects of EU membership. The other benefits of brexit that you don't want to discuss are completely unaffected by Covid-19.

This thread is about Gen Election. Quite how it got into Covid-19 and Brexit I am not sure. But I am always happy to reply when someone goes off thread.

Companies relocating works both ways. Nissan has plans to completely pull out of EU and concentrate its manufacturing in UK.

Back to General Election?

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22 minutes ago, RPG said:

Very few global companies (or even national ones) have the sort of social conscience you describe. The first loyalty is always to the shareholders. That means maximising profit and dividends. If that means outsourcing to WFM from third world countries they will do it in a heartbeat.

I do agree that there could be negative consequences for domestic purchasing power in those circumstances but if enough of the business is delivered overseas then the effects of loss of purchasing power by consumers in UK may be viewed as being more than compensated for by cheaper labour costs.

Would government legislate against WFM from third world countries? None of us know the answer to that.

Don’t underestimate the consumer in this country, we have in the past seen companies who have relocated customer care to India bring it back to this country, due to consumers leaving in protest to join companies who’s customer care is in this country. 
I don’t have a face book account but a friend as told me there is already a campaign starting to get people to buy British when this is over to support this country and the people and industries in it. 
Any companies who shit on British workers will I vehemently hope by treated like the  *** news paper in Liverpool. 

 

9 minutes ago, RPG said:

That is exactly what I was alluding to. Our market place has expanded, not contracted, and we don't have to waste (sometimes) years seeking concensus from 27 other countries to get deals over the line. So, no, I still think it is the right thing and that it won't be regarded as a mistake. And we can't cherry pick aspects of EU membership. The other benefits of brexit that you don't want to discuss are completely unaffected by Covid-19.

Companies relocating works both ways. Nissan has plans to completely pull out of EU and concentrate its manufacturing in UK.

 

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5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Don’t underestimate the consumer in this country, we have in the past seen companies who have relocated customer care to India bring it back to this country, due to consumers leaving in protest to join companies who’s customer care is in this country. 
I don’t have a face book account but a friend as told me there is already a campaign starting to get people to buy British when this is over to support this country and the people and industries in it. 
Any companies who shit on British workers will I vehemently hope by treated like *** news paper in Liverpool. 

 

 

In many ways I agree. But that requires a total move away from globalism including EU.

We have seen much of our UK manufacturing industry and almost all of our fishing industry shut down over the last 47 years. If we are to support British industry and 'Buy British' as you suggest,  there must first be a British industry to support.

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49 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Don’t underestimate the consumer in this country, we have in the past seen companies who have relocated customer care to India bring it back to this country, due to consumers leaving in protest to join companies who’s customer care is in this country. 
I don’t have a face book account but a friend as told me there is already a campaign starting to get people to buy British when this is over to support this country and the people and industries in it. 
Any companies who shit on British workers will I vehemently hope by treated like the  *** news paper in Liverpool. 

 

 

He's obliviously detached from this country otherwise he'd be aware about the call centres. 

I'm hoping wetherspoons takes a massive hit and people start going their locals again. 

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9 hours ago, pete0 said:

He's obliviously detached from this country otherwise he'd be aware about the call centres. 

I'm hoping wetherspoons takes a massive hit and people start going their locals again. 

Geographically remote yes, but still emotionally and, to a degree, financially invested in it. And I do know about the call centres. They are still pertinent to use as an example of how firms may try to outsource (WFH) from other countries in future.

Wishing ill on a UK business with inevitable loss of jobs for their workers doesn't strike me as being consistent with the ideology you profess to hold dear Pete. Can you explain that one please.

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23 minutes ago, RPG said:

Geographically remote yes, but still emotionally and, to a degree, financially invested in it. And I do know about the call centres. They are still pertinent to use as an example of how firms may try to outsource (WFH) from other countries in future.

Wishing ill on a UK business with inevitable loss of jobs for their workers doesn't strike me as being consistent with the ideology you profess to hold dear Pete. Can you explain that one please.

You're not here though, you may have nice memories and financial ties but you are completely detached from day to day life. Poverty is rife for example, foox banks have become a thing. 

I'm wishing in ill on one and fortune on the rest. Given what that company alone has done to the pub industry in the UK I'd be made up if it went bust. They undercharged on the beer to drive local pubs into the ground and then put the prices up once the competition is gone. Their owner hardly pays them well, shit contracts and told them all to go work in Tesco as he's not paying them during the corona lock down. 

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8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

You're not here though, you may have nice memories and financial ties but you are completely detached from day to day life. Poverty is rife for example, foox banks have become a thing. 

I'm wishing in ill on one and fortune on the rest. Given what that company alone has done to the pub industry in the UK I'd be made up if it went bust. They undercharged on the beer to drive local pubs into the ground and then put the prices up once the competition is gone. Their owner hardly pays them well, shit contracts and told them all to go work in Tesco as he's not paying them during the corona lock down. 

So, you are happy to see all his workforce made redundant then. Classy! I don't agree with the way he has treated his workers either, but the firm needs to survive to protect jobs. Then, maybe, adress employee relations.

If you want a credible target in these hard times, look at Richard Branson. Not only is he not paying his Virgin staff, he is demanding a £7.5 billion bail out from the government and doing all of this from his offshore, tax haven. Can we hear some criticism for Branson first please.

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18 hours ago, Palfy said:

1) What you both seem to not understand is what keeps the economy going which is people working and spending their earnings in the country they live, if you believe that British companies will wholesale take their jobs to countries with cheaper labour rates, which would then leave them with no end users  in the country they trade in to sell their products or services to, because people won’t have jobs or the finances to buy their products or services then I’m stunned, and I think any government would introduce laws and penalties to stop any mass exodus of jobs in a global down turn of the magnitude you see for the future, even a Tory government wouldn’t standby an allow that to happen. 
But in reality none of us will ever really know until it happens. 
 

2) And also wouldn’t it be better now more than ever to be in the biggest free trading block in the world, that also has powers to make sure by consensus of 28 members to make laws that companies would have to adhere to if they wished to trade with the biggest trade block in the world. 

1) Who said anything about British companies? What even is a British company now if anything other than in name, companies are looking to sell their products to the world.

The future is online, borders are going to become less and less relevant particularly in the service industry. Look at Automaticc, billion dollar company started by a guy who is still only 36 now, 1200 employees in 70 countries and no offices. Amazon are the biggest retailer in the world, don't have a single shop, Facebook, Google etc the high street is over.  Within a generation no one will be going to the supermarket to do their shopping in person.

The ship has sailed mate and Brexit will bring a little back but not very much.

2) At some stage you are going to have to decide if you're a free market neo-liberal or a left winger, left wingers do not rue the end of the European Union. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Chach said:

1) Who said anything about British companies? What even is a British company now if anything other than in name, companies are looking to sell their products to the world.

The future is online, borders are going to become less and less relevant particularly in the service industry. Look at Automaticc, billion dollar company started by a guy who is still only 36 now, 1200 employees in 70 countries and no offices. Amazon are the biggest retailer in the world, don't have a single shop, Facebook, Google etc the high street is over.  Within a generation no one will be going to the supermarket to do their shopping in person.

The ship has sailed mate and Brexit will bring a little back but not very much.

2) At some stage you are going to have to decide if you're a free market neo-liberal or a left winger, left wingers do not rue the end of the European Union. 

 

There are some British companies left but I know what you mean and entirely agree. British companies tend to be the SME with only a few offices in UK and a limited overseas market.

I have just been in email communication with a friend of mine from UK. He used to work in a small but successful Engineering works in Lincolnshire. Their main line was making component parts for Ford gear boxes. They were closed down about 25 years ago and the parts made in China and shipped to UK for assembly. Cheaper for Ford but it had a really bad impact on my friend's local economy as his employer was one of only two relatively big (but still SME) employers in the area. The fact that Ford subsequently stopped car production in UK in 2002 would probably have only delayed the inevitable, but it would have bought them some time to look for other business rather than be told overnight by Ford that they had lost the contract. The other firm was a knitwear factory that has also now closed for similar reasons. These companies could benefit, as would their local economy if they could be regenerated and if that takes protectionist measures to achieve then I am all for it.

But on a global scale, as you rightly ask, what is a British company?

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7 hours ago, Chach said:

1) Who said anything about British companies? What even is a British company now if anything other than in name, companies are looking to sell their products to the world.

The future is online, borders are going to become less and less relevant particularly in the service industry. Look at Automaticc, billion dollar company started by a guy who is still only 36 now, 1200 employees in 70 countries and no offices. Amazon are the biggest retailer in the world, don't have a single shop, Facebook, Google etc the high street is over.  Within a generation no one will be going to the supermarket to do their shopping in person.

The ship has sailed mate and Brexit will bring a little back but not very much.

2) At some stage you are going to have to decide if you're a free market neo-liberal or a left winger, left wingers do not rue the end of the European Union. 

 

There are over 4.2 million companies registered in the UK 2018-19 of which most are British, so jog on and do your homework. 

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9 hours ago, RPG said:

So, you are happy to see all his workforce made redundant then. Classy! I don't agree with the way he has treated his workers either, but the firm needs to survive to protect jobs. Then, maybe, adress employee relations.

If you want a credible target in these hard times, look at Richard Branson. Not only is he not paying his Virgin staff, he is demanding a £7.5 billion bail out from the government and doing all of this from his offshore, tax haven. Can we hear some criticism for Branson first please.

It's not that simple though is it? So what about the people who initially lost their their pubs and their employees? I'd be happy for the staff to go work at local pubs and hopefully on better terms, at least they'd be able to have tips. Whole point was that company mistreated their workforce, but you think that's okay as a jobs a job even if they fuck you over in a crisis 👍 

As for the firm needs to survive, does it fuck. People need to survive. If that pub chain goes other pubs will flourish, might even get some great British culture back too. Why look after big firms whilst letting little ones go bust? 

Branson is no better and he's getting very much the same noises in Liverpool, again this just highlights how detached you are. 

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9 hours ago, Chach said:

Amazon are the biggest retailer in the world, don't have a single shop, Facebook, Google etc the high street is over. 

 

false, amazon has 50+ physical stores

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-now-operates-seven-different-kinds-of-physical-stores-heres-why/

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12 hours ago, RPG said:

So, you are happy to see all his workforce made redundant then. Classy! I don't agree with the way he has treated his workers either, but the firm needs to survive to protect jobs. Then, maybe, adress employee relations.

If you want a credible target in these hard times, look at Richard Branson. Not only is he not paying his Virgin staff, he is demanding a £7.5 billion bail out from the government and doing all of this from his offshore, tax haven. Can we hear some criticism for Branson first please.

Branson won’t get the money he needs to contribute his own before he gets it from the public purse, and the Tories would be run out the country if they even considered giving him that sort of money. 
To be honest the planet is recovering quite nicely with the plane’s grounded, seeing a good percentage of plane operators going to the wall wouldn’t be such a bad thing, there’s far to many and the environment is more important. 

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16 hours ago, Palfy said:

There are over 4.2 million companies registered in the UK 2018-19 of which most are British, so jog on and do your homework. 

haha, show me in the post where I said no companies were registered in the UK?

Jog on and learn some reading comprehension.

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24 minutes ago, Chach said:

Jesus, I never even realised they'd branched into food. They need to be stopped (broken up) before they take over the world.

They already have taken over. They own hundreds of brands that you’d never associate with them 

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15 hours ago, Palfy said:

Branson won’t get the money he needs to contribute his own before he gets it from the public purse, and the Tories would be run out the country if they even considered giving him that sort of money. 
To be honest the planet is recovering quite nicely with the plane’s grounded, seeing a good percentage of plane operators going to the wall wouldn’t be such a bad thing, there’s far to many and the environment is more important. 

I certainly agree with you re Branson. He is one thing in public and quite another when it comes to business.

I have been pleasantly surprised at how quickly the planet is recovering from human inflicted damage too - pollution down in China, dolphins seen in previously polluted waters in Venice etc.

Environment is very important and that is being reflected in advances in the aviation industry. Electric/Pure Solar powered flight, bio fuels etc, even hydrogen where the waste product is water, but there is a way to go yet. The beginning of the increase in damage to the environment from the aviation industry coincided directly with the deregulation of the industry and the subsequent rise of all the low cost carriers which allowed everyone to fly. I would be very happy to see many of the low cost carriers fail but that would mean vast increases in ticket prices for the remaining airlines. But, as you say, the environment should come first.

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6 hours ago, pete0 said:

Having clicked on the link I read that as CineWorld are reviewing the situation in light of the government compensation scheme.

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

They already have taken over. They own hundreds of brands that you’d never associate with them 

In the US they own Whole Foods which has hundreds of locations.  They were our go to organic food store but I refuse to shop there because of amazon.  I refuse to support that awful company.  Read up on how they treat their warehouse workers.  They deny them breaks and grown adults are wearing diapers to relieve themselves because they can’t take a break.  Disgusting they haven’t gotten a cent from me in years, I support the local shops even if it costs me more.  Amazon is awful.

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7 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

In the US they own Whole Foods which has hundreds of locations.  They were our go to organic food store but I refuse to shop there because of amazon.  I refuse to support that awful company.  Read up on how they treat their warehouse workers.  They deny them breaks and grown adults are wearing diapers to relieve themselves because they can’t take a break.  Disgusting they haven’t gotten a cent from me in years, I support the local shops even if it costs me more.  Amazon is awful.

One of the many downsides of globalism, unfortunately. Terrible way to treat people but they do because they can.

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9 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

In the US they own Whole Foods which has hundreds of locations.  They were our go to organic food store but I refuse to shop there because of amazon.  I refuse to support that awful company.  Read up on how they treat their warehouse workers.  They deny them breaks and grown adults are wearing diapers to relieve themselves because they can’t take a break.  Disgusting they haven’t gotten a cent from me in years, I support the local shops even if it costs me more.  Amazon is awful.

But do you know what else they own? The portfolio covers so much I’m sure you’re giving them money without knowing!

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20 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i do, and i don't give em my money.  i despise them.  

All 124 companies! That’s impressive mate :P

i understand the reasoning but honestly if it’s the workers treatment in particular, you’d boycott 90% of all e-commerce, logistics, farming, supermarkets even gaming and music production etc. 

Its a great sentiment to have and I used to share it, but if you boycott one you should boycott all everywhere is my reasoning, and until I have my own self-sufficient farm, it’s not feasible, so I minimize rather than outright boycott these days. 

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32 minutes ago, RPG said:

One of the many downsides of globalism, unfortunately. Terrible way to treat people but they do because they can.

One of the downsides of consumerism

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15 minutes ago, Matt said:

All 124 companies! That’s impressive mate :P

i understand the reasoning but honestly if it’s the workers treatment in particular, you’d boycott 90% of all e-commerce, logistics, farming, supermarkets even gaming and music production etc. 

Its a great sentiment to have and I used to share it, but if you boycott one you should boycott all everywhere is my reasoning, and until I have my own self-sufficient farm, it’s not feasible, so I minimize rather than outright boycott these days. 

most of their business is in tech, i don't buy tech stuff we have a 15 year old tv from my parents, i buy clothes from thrift stores to not support the fast fashion industry, i use the computer my work gave me for free.  amazon and whole food would be the only 2 i would use and i refuse to.

 

we are part of a CSA, Community supported agriculture.  we pay farmers ahead of the season for our food, it's delivered weekly regardless of how their season was (they are guaranteed their money, we are not guaranteed the food but we have never had an issue even now with covid).  the farms and workers are located hours from me (i'm in ohio), fresh butter, fresh organic meat raised in pastures in ohio, wonderful vegetables and fruits.  in the winter root vegetables, canned fruit from the summer, eggs, butter, and yes more meat (just got a whole chicken we will roast this evening).  so yeah i'm good on the farming and don't need a self sufficient farm.  i told you i was a hippie matt :) u should realize that by now.  

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7 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

most of their business is in tech, i don't buy tech stuff we have a 15 year old tv from my parents, i buy clothes from thrift stores to not support the fast fashion industry, i use the computer my work gave me for free.  amazon and whole food would be the only 2 i would use and i refuse to.

 

we are part of a CSA, Community supported agriculture.  we pay farmers ahead of the season for our food, it's delivered weekly regardless of how their season was (they are guaranteed their money, we are not guaranteed the food but we have never had an issue even now with covid).  the farms and workers are located hours from me (i'm in ohio), fresh butter, fresh organic meat raised in pastures in ohio, wonderful vegetables and fruits.  in the winter root vegetables, canned fruit from the summer, eggs, butter, and yes more meat (just got a whole chicken we will roast this evening).  so yeah i'm good on the farming and don't need a self sufficient farm.  i told you i was a hippie matt :) u should realize that by now.  

I always knew it mate, and respect it greatly, but didn’t realize how “easy” it was for you to do it. 

We buy from the local farmers whenever we can, but it’s very seasonal and even more expensive. there’s very very little here that allows the hippie life unless you’re single and unemployed (I.e have the time and some money to make the required effort)

good on ya though mate

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6 minutes ago, RPG said:

A smaller company wouldn't get away with it.

Define smaller company. If you’re talking 10’s of employees they tend to buy into the dream of the company so make the extra effort voluntarily. 

My point of consumerism is the supply for demand, and the consumers are the root cause 

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1 hour ago, RPG said:

I certainly agree with you re Branson. He is one thing in public and quite another when it comes to business.

I have been pleasantly surprised at how quickly the planet is recovering from human inflicted damage too - pollution down in China, dolphins seen in previously polluted waters in Venice etc.

Environment is very important and that is being reflected in advances in the aviation industry. Electric/Pure Solar powered flight, bio fuels etc, even hydrogen where the waste product is water, but there is a way to go yet. The beginning of the increase in damage to the environment from the aviation industry coincided directly with the deregulation of the industry and the subsequent rise of all the low cost carriers which allowed everyone to fly. I would be very happy to see many of the low cost carriers fail but that would mean vast increases in ticket prices for the remaining airlines. But, as you say, the environment should come first.

Do you see a time soon when we will be flying in Electric/ Solar powered airplanes, I also saw on the news earlier today an interview with a scientist in the Antarctic saying how much things are starting to recover there in such a short space of time, this could be the only positive to come out of the Coronavirus, proof that we can start to heal the environment before its to late. 

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