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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

I can sympathise that people can't control what they think but end of the day you should know right from wrong. If you you're aware you're thoughts are bad then you should be also aware that it's wrong and act accordingly. 

They're scumbags/morons for voting selfishly. What good has the tory party done in the last decade? 

Your ethics are flawed if you tolerate the government staving children and purposesly neglecting the health care system. What's the difference between needless deaths and murder? 

There are many moral and ethical issues which are so divisive that really there is no right and wrong - despite either side claiming there is. It's just differing opinions. In those instances, you can't be aware your thoughts are bad or that your thoughts are good. I think if you vote Conservative or you vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, you have a reason for doing so, and I'm guessing most aren't scumbags or morons (certainly not 50% of the population), despite many of the policies having dire outcomes. They may be voting for purely selfish reasons, though.

I could argue that you have flawed ethics if you eat meat (I am vegan) but I would not call you a scumbag or a moron for doing so, despite my very strong personal opinion about it.  I was brought up In Northern Ireland in the seventies, where really terrible things happened. I was asked to straddle the divide between Protestants and Catholics when I belonged to neither group. The only solution to that conflict was tolerance and acceptance. Any schism between Conservative and Labour ideology is just polite conversation compared to the events of that time and to other brutal conflicts round the world.    

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2 hours ago, Formby said:

There are many moral and ethical issues which are so divisive that really there is no right and wrong - despite either side claiming there is. It's just differing opinions. In those instances, you can't be aware your thoughts are bad or that your thoughts are good. I think if you vote Conservative or you vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, you have a reason for doing so, and I'm guessing most aren't scumbags or morons (certainly not 50% of the population), despite many of the policies having dire outcomes. They may be voting for purely selfish reasons, though.

What right reason is there for voting tory that outweighs the increase in needless deaths and poverty. As far as I'm convener they are literally starving children and killing people with their policy. The majority of voters must be aware of this so they are scumbags, those not aware are morons. 

I could argue that you have flawed ethics if you eat meat (I am vegan) but I would not call you a scumbag or a moron for doing so, despite my very strong personal opinion about it.  I was brought up In Northern Ireland in the seventies, where really terrible things happened. I was asked to straddle the divide between Protestants and Catholics when I belonged to neither group. The only solution to that conflict was tolerance and acceptance. Any schism between Conservative and Labour ideology is just polite conversation compared to the events of that time and to other brutal conflicts round the world.  

Don't see how that's relevant. You can make strong arguments either way as there's pluses and minuses to whether vegan is friendlier, plants are living things to and a lot of produce is worse for the environment. I don't see any strong evidence that demonstrates how the deaths and misery caused by tory policy is justified. The only ones benefiting are the rich and it's at the expense of everyone else. 

 

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11 hours ago, Chach said:

 

 

As a species we really have come a long way in our tolerance and acceptance of people who don't look like us, but fuck me have we got a way to go with people who don't think like us.

I have no doubt that if we survive the coming multapocalypses this sort of myopic political intolerance will be viewed as something akin to the way we look at racism now. For now though the best argument against democracy must surely be 5 minutes reading this thread.

At lease we chased off the last conservatives though hey, wank on fellas!

Chach you are part of the problem even though you think you know the answers you don’t stop adding to the argument against democracy. 
Who these last conservatives are that were chased off I’m not sure, but let’s not forget this forum is for Evertonian’s to discuss matters of Everton FC, these other threads are there if you wish to use them more as a sideline, but there are the odd few who only want to engage in the political threads and when they fallout with someone or there views are challenged some throw the towel in and leave. 
Personally when I’ve had an argument a slap on the wrist or whatever in the political threads, I still engage in the Everton threads because that’s what I’m on this forum for, for me those that have left because of there politics and are here just because of there politics aren’t a loss no matter what there political persuasion. 
COYB and not the Tory type 😉

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32 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Chach you are part of the problem even though you think you know the answers you don’t stop adding to the argument against democracy. 
Who these last conservatives are that were chased off I’m not sure, but let’s not forget this forum is for Evertonian’s to discuss matters of Everton FC, these other threads are there if you wish to use them more as a sideline, but there are the odd few who only want to engage in the political threads and when they fallout with someone or there views are challenged some throw the towel in and leave. 
Personally when I’ve had an argument a slap on the wrist or whatever in the political threads, I still engage in the Everton threads because that’s what I’m on this forum for, for me those that have left because of there politics and are here just because of there politics aren’t a loss no matter what there political persuasion. 
COYB and not the Tory type 😉

What you don't highlight though Palfy is that we are ALL Toffee's on here, which, as you rightly say, is what the website is all about.  Even on a non-football thread, I don't expect to be called a Nazi and a murderer.  When I first joined this website I thought I had found the holy grail.  It was brilliant.  Unfortunately and particularly since Brexit, it has deteriorated.  The Mod's have no balls and let anything go - as long as it fits in with their political views.  The only critical post by a Mod that I have seen, was to RPG and his post didn't accuse anyone of being a Nazi or a murderer.  

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

What you don't highlight though Palfy is that we are ALL Toffee's on here, which, as you rightly say, is what the website is all about.  Even on a non-football thread, I don't expect to be called a Nazi and a murderer.  When I first joined this website I thought I had found the holy grail.  It was brilliant.  Unfortunately and particularly since Brexit, it has deteriorated.  The Mod's have no balls and let anything go - as long as it fits in with their political views.  The only critical post by a Mod that I have seen, was to RPG and his post didn't accuse anyone of being a Nazi or a murderer.  

The thing is John we don’t get the magnitude of the size of Brexit on regular basis, it’s going to cause deep divisions in all walks of society, even politicians were calling other politicians racists it wasn’t just owned by this forum. 
I will be honest with you I have and had no sympathy for RPG he gave as good as he got. 
What happened to the old adage of your vote is your business, only now everyone wants the whole world to know who they voted for and why, and if you’re going to put your head above the parapet in this world of social media I think you have to be prepared to possibly get it shot off. 

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22 hours ago, pete0 said:

If it's there quote it, especially don't remember you answering at the eighth time of asking. If it's not there then apologise for being the manipulative liar you are. 

If you're concerned about a person coming into the country and the only basis you have for being concerned is that they weren't born here then yea that racist/fascist. 

What brexit policy did you agree with?

What immigration policy did you disagree with, and why? 

What do you mean by polite society? 

Who said anything about pro rape? You said we should accept people think differently. Rapist, racist, and tories all think differently to me. Why should I tolerate any of them, they all fall into the same bracket that they put their own selfish needs a head of the overall well being of everyone. 

FFS Pete, this is what you do every time your wafer thin arguments are taken apart, refuse to engage with the actual argument, strawman the fuck out of everything. demand I provide a list of non related evidence to something that was a hypothetical. 

If you can't engage with the actual argument then you will be ignored, and not with the ignore button just regular ignored like you way you ignore a small petulant child.

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5 minutes ago, Chach said:

FFS Pete, this is what you do every time your wafer thin arguments are taken apart, refuse to engage with the actual argument, strawman the fuck out of everything. demand I provide a list of non related evidence to something that if  was a hypothetical. 

If you can't engage with the actual argument then you will be ignored, and not with the ignore button just regular ignored like you way you ignore a small petulant child.

If it's a wafer thin argument you'd have no problem responding to it and proving other wise. Funny that you then go on to say I don't engage. Look up projection and you might learn something about yourself. 

How is asking the same question strawmanning. Its the opposite, I'm asking for a clear answer to a clear question. Stop hiding and put your point across with the reasons. 

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14 hours ago, Palfy said:

Chach you are part of the problem even though you think you know the answers you don’t stop adding to the argument against democracy. 

I don't think I've ever said that I think I have any answers Palf, but I'd like to think that I am not ignorant to the vast complexities of the situations we're discussing so I am always surprised that pointing out that calling the other side selfish/nazis/fascists/c*nts is a bad strategy is met with either opprobrium or silence.

For the record there's no argument against democracy, it's not perfect because it has human nature rooted in tribalism to contend with but has demonstrably delivered the fairest societies in the history of humanity.

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15 hours ago, pete0 said:

There are many moral and ethical issues which are so divisive that really there is no right and wrong - despite either side claiming there is. It's just differing opinions. In those instances, you can't be aware your thoughts are bad or that your thoughts are good. I think if you vote Conservative or you vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, you have a reason for doing so, and I'm guessing most aren't scumbags or morons (certainly not 50% of the population), despite many of the policies having dire outcomes. They may be voting for purely selfish reasons, though.

What right reason is there for voting tory that outweighs the increase in needless deaths and poverty. As far as I'm convener they are literally starving children and killing people with their policy. The majority of voters must be aware of this so they are scumbags, those not aware are morons. 

I could argue that you have flawed ethics if you eat meat (I am vegan) but I would not call you a scumbag or a moron for doing so, despite my very strong personal opinion about it.  I was brought up In Northern Ireland in the seventies, where really terrible things happened. I was asked to straddle the divide between Protestants and Catholics when I belonged to neither group. The only solution to that conflict was tolerance and acceptance. Any schism between Conservative and Labour ideology is just polite conversation compared to the events of that time and to other brutal conflicts round the world.  

Don't see how that's relevant. You can make strong arguments either way as there's pluses and minuses to whether vegan is friendlier, plants are living things to and a lot of produce is worse for the environment. I don't see any strong evidence that demonstrates how the deaths and misery caused by tory policy is justified. The only ones benefiting are the rich and it's at the expense of everyone else.

It's very relevant.

In Northern Ireland, the British Government (Labour and Conservative) was complicit in the sectarian murders of its own citizens. Tory austerity cuts fall well short of this - unless you have access to government papers to the contrary.

The pluses and minuses comment about veganism avoids the central issue of animal welfare and the eating of meat. I feel as strongly about it as you do about the Tory Govt / austerity cuts. I don't go calling people who eat meat morons and scumbags.

One of the most egregious examples of state crime was the war in Iraq - sanctioned by Labour. Governments are guilty of lots of things and should rightly be held to account.  

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44 minutes ago, Chach said:

I don't think I've ever said that I think I have any answers Palf, but I'd like to think that I am not ignorant to the vast complexities of the situations we're discussing so I am always surprised that pointing out that calling the other side selfish/nazis/fascists/c*nts is a bad strategy is met with either opprobrium or silence.

For the record there's no argument against democracy, it's not perfect because it has human nature rooted in tribalism to contend with but has demonstrably delivered the fairest societies in the history of humanity.

Chach please stop talking in riddles you said the best argument against democracy was this thread, you said it in away as to blame us for conservatives removing themselves from the thread, but seem to absolve yourself from any responsibility of what happens on this thread, that is why I said you are a part of the problem, because you are one of the main contributors to the thread, but you don’t see it that way because you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than the man stood next to you who has a different view and different way of expressing his views. 
Now I come from a background were a spade is called a spade, I think you like to say a lot and preach to people, but like all good politicians you talk well but say nothing of any worth. 
Now if this place offends or affects you so much you have a choice like all of us not to participate. 
I have looked at when all the political threads started on this forum the first being Brexit in 2016 and the other 4 or 5 after, this as I said before is meant to be a forum for Everton supporters to discuss Everton FC topics, John struck a chord with me when he said this place had gone down hill since the Brexit thread opened, and he is probably right, the mods should consider closing political threads and getting back to the basics of what this forum was designed for. 
And for people like yourself Chach who cannot live without there daily in take of political I know better than you, there are plenty of place you can indulge yourself but for all of us should it be here?

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1 hour ago, Formby said:

It's very relevant.

In Northern Ireland, the British Government (Labour and Conservative) was complicit in the sectarian murders of its own citizens. Tory austerity cuts fall well short of this - unless you have access to government papers to the contrary.

Still don't see how that's relevant. How is starving children and cutting national health services now fine because of other failings in the past. Further you're using a religious conflict closer to war in comparison to what is simply a I house policy that has no basis. What positives have 15 years of austerity brought to justify the premature deaths of 100,000+? . Which is more than the those lost during the troubles but only a scumbag would try and go down the route of comparing the needless deaths so I'll not walk any further down that path. 

The pluses and minuses comment about veganism avoids the central issue of animal welfare and the eating of meat. I feel as strongly about it as you do about the Tory Govt / austerity cuts. I don't go calling people who eat meat morons and scumbags.

Very one minded of you to assume I know what you consider to be the central issue. You never mentioned that the issues were animal welfare and eating meat (agree on the first but not the second) hence me covering all bases. Any how I find it saddening that you feel more about animals being food than the fact this Government is starving kids. Personally I don't agree with battery farms but given a choice I'd rather no child went hungry. 

One of the most egregious examples of state crime was the war in Iraq - sanctioned by Labour. Governments are guilty of lots of things and should rightly be held to account.  

And you're bringing this up in relation to what? 

 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Chach please stop talking in riddles you said the best argument against democracy was this thread, you said it in away as to blame us for conservatives removing themselves from the thread, but seem to absolve yourself from any responsibility of what happens on this thread, that is why I said you are a part of the problem, because you are one of the main contributors to the thread, but you don’t see it that way because you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than the man stood next to you who has a different view and different way of expressing his views. 
Now I come from a background were a spade is called a spade, I think you like to say a lot and preach to people, but like all good politicians you talk well but say nothing of any worth. 
Now if this place offends or affects you so much you have a choice like all of us not to participate. 
I have looked at when all the political threads started on this forum the first being Brexit in 2016 and the other 4 or 5 after, this as I said before is meant to be a forum for Everton supporters to discuss Everton FC topics, John struck a chord with me when he said this place had gone down hill since the Brexit thread opened, and he is probably right, the mods should consider closing political threads and getting back to the basics of what this forum was designed for. 
And for people like yourself Chach who cannot live without there daily in take of political I know better than you, there are plenty of place you can indulge yourself but for all of us should it be here?

You're not saying anything that bothers or offends me Palfy. Telling me I don't have to participate if I don't like it is not an argument or any kind of meaningful contribution to the discussion and don't make me responsible for the way my posts make you feel I have never attacked you personally, the way you do me.

You've typed out paragraphs there and barely made an argument other than you don't like my style which is also not an argument. If you don't think there's any substance take some of your own advice stop fucking replying.

Close the politics threads? Don't be so fucking ridiculous.

 

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59 minutes ago, pete0 said:

t's very relevant.

In Northern Ireland, the British Government (Labour and Conservative) was complicit in the sectarian murders of its own citizens. Tory austerity cuts fall well short of this - unless you have access to government papers to the contrary.

Still don't see how that's relevant. How is starving children and cutting national health services now fine because of other failings in the past. Further you're using a religious conflict closer to war in comparison to what is simply a I house policy that has no basis. What positives have 15 years of austerity brought to justify the premature deaths of 100,000+? . Which is more than the those lost during the troubles but only a scumbag would try and go down the route of comparing the needless deaths so I'll not walk any further down that path. 

The pluses and minuses comment about veganism avoids the central issue of animal welfare and the eating of meat. I feel as strongly about it as you do about the Tory Govt / austerity cuts. I don't go calling people who eat meat morons and scumbags.

Very one minded of you to assume I know what you consider to be the central issue. You never mentioned that the issues were animal welfare and eating meat (agree on the first but not the second) hence me covering all bases. Any how I find it saddening that you feel more about animals being food than the fact this Government is starving kids. Personally I don't agree with battery farms but given a choice I'd rather no child went hungry. 

One of the most egregious examples of state crime was the war in Iraq - sanctioned by Labour. Governments are guilty of lots of things and should rightly be held to account.  

And you're bringing this up in relation to what? 

I think the relevance is abundantly clear - there have been examples in the past when the British state has been complicit in the murder of its own citizens. I do not think Tory austerity cuts (however loathsome) amount to this (certainly the legal definition or murder). You may have seen documents to the contrary; I have not.

I am not a Tory and have never voted for them, so you're directing your questions at the wrong person. I disagreed with austerity.

I believe it was you who compared Tories to Nazis in this thread, so the point about going 'down the route' is hypocritical.

I don't believe you covered any bases. If you wish to open a separate thread on animal rights, happy to engage and debate.

The point about the Iraq War (and NI) is that Labour (as well as the Conservatives) have been complicit in war crimes. It's across the political spectrum, not just Tories. 

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39 minutes ago, Chach said:

You're not saying anything that bothers or offends me Palfy. Telling me I don't have to participate if I don't like it is not an argument or any kind of meaningful contribution to the discussion and don't make me responsible for the way my posts make you feel I have never attacked you personally, the way you do me.

You've typed out paragraphs there and barely made an argument other than you don't like my style which is also not an argument. If you don't think there's any substance take some of your own advice stop fucking replying.

Close the politics threads? Don't be so fucking ridiculous.

 

Well there you go Chach you are what you accuse others of, I’m not trying to offend you mate that’s why I haven’t used any offensive remarks towards you, and why you don’t feel offended. 
But you’re style is to attack others that don’t agree with you, yet complain when other’s do the same to you. 
I think it should be closed because all it’s doing is breeding a lot of whiners and whinging, and you contribute to that. 
If you are going to give it at least be prepared to take it, and remember in life we are not all the same and you are no better than anyone else on this forum. 
So to write that we at least got rid off the last conservatives fellas so wank on, is not the truth and if you genuinely believe that was the objective, then what does that say about you as a person, that you would still want to engage with people like that. 
I think it is only right that you name the people you believe have been guilty of wanking because they’ve forced or caused conservatives to leave?

And why is it so ridiculous to close the political threads on a football forum, bar you having nothing else to contribute on here, like I said there are numerous site’s were you can go and engage your need to talk politics, and you never know you might find more people who are interested in what you have to say, and you might find that more engaging. 
Don’t take it personally please it’s just a thought. 

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16 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Well there you go Chach you are what you accuse others of, I’m not trying to offend you mate that’s why I haven’t used any offensive remarks towards you, and why you don’t feel offended. 
But you’re style is to attack others that don’t agree with you, yet complain when other’s do the same to you. 
I think it should be closed because all it’s doing is breeding a lot of whiners and whinging, and you contribute to that. 
If you are going to give it at least be prepared to take it, and remember in life we are not all the same and you are no better than anyone else on this forum. 
So to write that we at least got rid off the last conservatives fellas so wank on, is not the truth and if you genuinely believe that was the objective, then what does that say about you as a person, that you would still want to engage with people like that. 
I think it is only right that you name the people you believe have been guilty of wanking because they’ve forced or caused conservatives to leave?

And why is it so ridiculous to close the political threads on a football forum, bar you having nothing else to contribute on here, like I said there are numerous site’s were you can go and engage your need to talk politics, and you never know you might find more people who are interested in what you have to say, and you might find that more engaging. 
Don’t take it personally please it’s just a thought. 

My style is to attack your political arguments when I disagree with them Palfy, you might take it personally it's perfect natural but it still doesn't make it a personal attack.

I think one of the main problems here is your inclination to take comments literally rather than figuratively, a political circle jerk is a slang term for people in a political echo chamber who only like to have their opinions repeated back to them it is not literally people wanking, same if someone paraphrases a famous quote about "best argument against democracy" it's just a rhetorical device, not an empirical truth.

Let me know if you required any further clarification with "riddles" above.

 

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59 minutes ago, Formby said:

I think the relevance is abundantly clear - there have been examples in the past when the British state has been complicit in the murder of its own citizens. I do not think Tory austerity cuts (however loathsome) amount to this (certainly the legal definition or murder). You may have seen documents to the contrary; I have not.

If it was clear I wouldn't have to ask. 

Are you don't beleive the cuts have led to people dying, or that they have but you don't believe it meets the lawful definition of murder? 

Why do you keep bringing up documents? There's loads of their showing austerity has caused deaths. Do you think it hasn't? Just look at our death toll compared to the rest of the EU during the pandemic. 

I am not a Tory and have never voted for them, so you're directing your questions at the wrong person. I disagreed with austerity.

*scoffs* it's abundantly clear why I'm asking, you said they aren't all morons/scumbags. I've then asked why she even laid it out emphasising why I think they're one or the other. How've you struggled to follow that? 

I believe it was you who compared Tories to Nazis in this thread, so the point about going 'down the route' is hypocritical.

No idea how this is relevant. Any how stand by it. Gave a clear reasoning why. Propaganda, racism etc.

Fuck it, can't believe I'm asking this. Why is any death caused by the troubles worse than any death caused by austerity? Why did you think it necessary to bring it into the conversation? 

I don't believe you covered any bases. If you wish to open a separate thread on animal rights, happy to engage and debate.

I said plants are living things (which covers the you shouldn't eat animals) and I mentioned environmental. There's possibly already a thread. 

The point about the Iraq War (and NI) is that Labour (as well as the Conservatives) have been complicit in war crimes. It's across the political spectrum, not just Tories. 

Still don't see how that's relevant. My argument is this Government needs holding to account. 

 

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

think one of the main problems here is your inclination to take comments literally rather than figuratively, a political circle jerk is a slang term for people in a political echo chamber who only like to have their opinions repeated back to them it is not literally people wanking, same if someone paraphrases a famous quote about "best argument against democracy" it's just a rhetorical device, not an empirical truth.

We could switch that and say the main problem here is you don’t say what you mean, and find it hard to deal with people who do, hence why Pete gets to you so much. 
Your wanking jibe was not said in the context of what you are saying now, that is clear for all to see, I can’t find any other conclusions to what you meant other than you believe some on here have run the conservatives off the forum and are now wanking in some form of sexual gratification for doing so. 
For me that isn’t an attack on someone’s political beliefs that’s a personal attack on someone’s character, but of course I’m wrong because you don’t do that. 

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5 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

Not sure if you're being deliberately abstruse. We appear to be going round in circles.

To simplify: austerity has been bad for the country - it has resulted in deaths and a lot of hardship. Like many people, I disagreed with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, governments should rightly be held to account. This government should be held to account (on austerity, the pandemic, anything you want to throw at them if you think there is a case to answer).

I think their policy was misguided and reflected a party out of touch and uncaring.

I do not think this was the same as the Nazi war machine committing genocide, though, nor do I think it shows Government complicity in murder (as happened in Northern Ireland) or war crimes (Gulf War). You obviously feel differently and that is your right.

Saying that I don't believe 50% of the population to be scumbags or morons, just because you think so, does not make me any particular political persuasion. I have never ever voted Tory. Very hard to reconcile veganism / animal rights and welfare with a party that supported fox hunting and wanted to bring it back. Ditto, their policies on sustainability and the environment. 

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1 hour ago, Formby said:

Not sure if you're being deliberately abstruse. We appear to be going round in circles.

To simplify: austerity has been bad for the country - it has resulted in deaths and a lot of hardship. Like many people, I disagreed with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, governments should rightly be held to account. This government should be held to account (on austerity, the pandemic, anything you want to throw at them if you think there is a case to answer).

I think their policy was misguided and reflected a party out of touch and uncaring.

I do not think this was the same as the Nazi war machine committing genocide, though, nor do I think it shows Government complicity in murder (as happened in Northern Ireland) or war crimes (Gulf War). You obviously feel differently and that is your right.

Saying that I don't believe 50% of the population to be scumbags or morons, just because you think so, does not make me any particular political persuasion. I have never ever voted Tory. Very hard to reconcile veganism / animal rights and welfare with a party that supported fox hunting and wanted to bring it back. Ditto, their policies on sustainability and the environment. 

We're going in circles as you're not addressing what your reasoning is that tories and their voters aren't scumbags or morons. I'll make this as simple as possible. 

I agree they are uncaring but to merely say they were misguided is far off the mark. It's been 15 years so at some point they would have realised the policy was misguided and took action. But I highly doubt that to be the case given they have said stuff like they were too soft with austerity. 

Again. Anyone voting for them knew that they were doing so at the cost of the NHS and human lives. In return for this they were getting to kick the foreigners out and cause misery on the working class, vulnerable and disabled people here. Scumbag seems fairly light all things considered. 

So given the above. What tory policies were there that outweighed the fact voting for the Conservatives was gonna inflict misery and cut short lives. 

 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

We're going in circles as you're not addressing what your reasoning is that tories and their voters aren't scumbags or morons. I'll make this as simple as possible. 

I agree they are uncaring but to merely say they were misguided is far off the mark. It's been 15 years so at some point they would have realised the policy was misguided and took action. But I highly doubt that to be the case given they have said stuff like they were too soft with austerity. 

Again. Anyone voting for them knew that they were doing so at the cost of the NHS and human lives. In return for this they were getting to kick the foreigners out and cause misery on the working class, vulnerable and disabled people here. Scumbag seems fairly light all things considered. 

So given the above. What tory policies were there that outweighed the fact voting for the Conservatives was gonna inflict misery and cut short lives. 

 

Thank you for making it as simple as possible. We do indeed to be at cross purposes. I am talking about you comparing Tory austerity to Nazism and you are asking me to justify why I don't think half the population are scumbags and morons.

To answer your question first. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and engage in positive discourse - there are those I vehemently disagree with over a whole range of issues, but who are very far from being morons and scumbags. Amongst this fraternity are people of varying religious persuasions, political persuasions, those with a social axe to grind, and those with none. I believe they extend the same largesse and courtesy to me when I speak to them. We debate, we talk, we disagree, we agree. I understand that people vote Tory for many different reasons and amongst them may have been those who warned about austerity, just as there may have been amongst them 'scumbags and morons' who actively pursued the policy with little regard for the consequences. To say that everyone who votes Tory is a 'scumbag and a moron', however, is not born out in my experience. With you it maybe, I guess. What I am pretty sure about is that 50% of the population are not morons and scumbags. It is dismissive and reductive and the worst kind of pigeon-holing. As I don't vote Tory, it would be wrong of me to hazard what policies they had that outweighed the misery austerity was going to inflict, so I can't really answer that.

My question to you was a simple one, I thought. Namely, does this wretched austerity that has inflicted misery and cut short lives fall short of the Nazi's genocide campaign and Government complicity in murders in NI or the war crimes of the Gulf war. I would say it does.    

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51 minutes ago, Formby said:

Thank you for making it as simple as possible. We do indeed to be at cross purposes. I am talking about you comparing Tory austerity to Nazism and you are asking me to justify why I don't think half the population are scumbags and morons.

You only brought that point up in your last post as you continued to just post drivel with no context 

To answer your question first. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and engage in positive discourse - there are those I vehemently disagree with over a whole range of issues, but who are very far from being morons and scumbags. Amongst this fraternity are people of varying religious persuasions, political persuasions, those with a social axe to grind, and those with none. I believe they extend the same largesse and courtesy to me when I speak to them. We debate, we talk, we disagree, we agree. I understand that people vote Tory for many different reasons and amongst them may have been those who warned about austerity, just as there may have been amongst them 'scumbags and morons' who actively pursued the policy with little regard for the consequences. To say that everyone who votes Tory is a 'scumbag and a moron', however, is not born out in my experience. With you it maybe, I guess. What I am pretty sure about is that 50% of the population are not morons and scumbags. It is dismissive and reductive and the worst kind of pigeon-holing. As I don't vote Tory, it would be wrong of me to hazard what policies they had that outweighed the misery austerity was going to inflict, so I can't really answer that.

Seriously what the fuck is this. You've absolutely wasted my time (I know it's my own fault for engaging with you), I've asked you countless times for why you disagree and the closest thing you get to answering that is that it would be wrong for you to hazard what policies. So you don't know what policies outweigh the 100,000+ deaths caused, ie. you've got absolutely no reasoning to why their voters are morons/scumbags. 

My question to you was a simple one, I thought. Namely, does this wretched austerity that has inflicted misery and cut short lives fall short of the Nazi's genocide campaign and Government complicity in murders in NI or the war crimes of the Gulf war. I would say it does.  

When have you asked me this? Seriously you must have half these conversations in your own head. I know I'm not the clearest at times but you've really taken the piss today. 

 

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On 05/05/2020 at 23:11, Palfy said:

We could switch that and say the main problem here is you don’t say what you mean, and find it hard to deal with people who do, hence why Pete gets to you so much. 
Your wanking jibe was not said in the context of what you are saying now, that is clear for all to see, I can’t find any other conclusions to what you meant other than you believe some on here have run the conservatives off the forum and are now wanking in some form of sexual gratification for doing so. 
For me that isn’t an attack on someone’s political beliefs that’s a personal attack on someone’s character, but of course I’m wrong because you don’t do that. 

Well we'll have to agree to disagree I think the the context was perfectly clear, but I do agree that I was saying the left/liberal members of this forum pile on the few conservatives who post on here in a dishonest way. Making extreme strawmans of their arguments when they even bother to address the actual argument. This is a demonstrable fact.

Nobody on these forums "gets to me" at all, particularly people that aren't even liberal and who don't see other members of society as their political equals. Those people are the reasons that democracies fail and become autocratic and all side of politics should censure them even when it's not convenient. 

 

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37 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I said a few weeks ago he was more akin to Chamberlain than Churchill, after RPG was big in him up as some Churchillian figure head who was going to steer this country to safety and greatness. 
It would appear the reality is a lot different to the rhetoric Boris fucked up and RPG fucked off. 

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26 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I said a few weeks ago he was more akin to Chamberlain than Churchill, after RPG was big in him up as some Churchillian figure head who was going to steer this country to safety and greatness. 
It would appear the reality is a lot different to the rhetoric Boris fucked up and RPG fucked off. 

Found it a disgrace that he used Churchill as his avatar. Genuinely thought he was a torybot second time round. 

I find it mad that BJ is still in office. Herd immunity was a disaster and I wouldn't be surprised if kids 50 years from now are taught about him in history alongside Hitler and Mao. 

I don't know enough about politics but surely there's some way to remove him; he's personally responsible for the death of 1000s.

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On 08/05/2020 at 14:44, pete0 said:

Found it a disgrace that he used Churchill as his avatar. Genuinely thought he was a torybot second time round. 

I find it mad that BJ is still in office. Herd immunity was a disaster and I wouldn't be surprised if kids 50 years from now are taught about him in history alongside Hitler and Mao. 

I don't know enough about politics but surely there's some way to remove him; he's personally responsible for the death of 1000s.

History reckons that Mao was responsible for 40+ million deaths,  Stalin and Hitler 20+ million each.  Don't think Boris is in that category.  I hope you are not too distraught if the death rate from the virus falls.  Most of us will be delighted.

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Just now, johnh said:

History reckons that Mao was responsible for 40+ million deaths,  Stalin and Hitler 20+ million each.  Don't think Boris is in that category.  I hope you are not too distraught if the death rate from the virus falls.  Most of us will be delighted.

Don't see how a death toll is relevant. I'm distraught that people are starving to death in the 21st century. How many people are you happy to starve to death before you think it's wrong? 

It'd be a miracle if the death rate falls completely. But the government is actively pursuing a plan that will kill more. How can you defend them? 

As for the bit in bold I hope it made you feel better for a second, that said I hope the following second you realised you're projecting bollocks and then actually gave a thought to the people in this country who have already died needlessly and without those who love them around them. 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

97137650_10157256919731586_1750052658900

Nah, they'll be shouting get back to work as they twist isolation being lazy people. Horrible cunts the lot of them. 

They've got to get their nanny's back to work so they no longer have to deal with their own children.

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15 hours ago, pete0 said:

Don't see how a death toll is relevant. I'm distraught that people are starving to death in the 21st century. How many people are you happy to starve to death before you think it's wrong? 

It'd be a miracle if the death rate falls completely. But the government is actively pursuing a plan that will kill more. How can you defend them? 

As for the bit in bold I hope it made you feel better for a second, that said I hope the following second you realised you're projecting bollocks and then actually gave a thought to the people in this country who have already died needlessly and without those who love them around them. 

China have got a lot to answer for.

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46 minutes ago, johnh said:

China have got a lot to answer for.

So does the conservative government. How many lives before you think it's not okay what they're doing? 

As for blaming China that's very xenophobic to the point you could even be mistaken for quoting Donald Trump. Would you say the same of any other virus? 

Any how your answer to how you can defend Conservatives seems to be it's china's fault... So even if we do blame China for starting it (and we'd lose people because of it). If you look at the rest of the world are reaction has not only caused more deaths it's encouraged them. Look at Japan who are closer to China, has twice our population and a higher proportion who are high risk. So at the very worst I'd expect our loses to be half of theirs, yet we've lost twice as many as them, 4 times the expectated worst case scenario. So if you do truly blame China you'd be blaming them for 7,500 people. That still leaves blood on the hands of every tory for the other 25,000 and counting. 

Speaking of death tolls you've not addressed how the death toll between all the murderers is relevant? 

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6 hours ago, pete0 said:

97137650_10157256919731586_1750052658900

Nah, they'll be shouting get back to work as they twist isolation being lazy people. Horrible cunts the lot of them. 

That’s so justifiable, I’d be out there booing them. 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

So does the conservative government. How many lives before you think it's not okay what they're doing? 

As for blaming China that's very xenophobic to the point you could even be mistaken for quoting Donald Trump. Would you say the same of any other virus? 

Any how your answer to how you can defend Conservatives seems to be it's china's fault... So even if we do blame China for starting it (and we'd lose people because of it). If you look at the rest of the world are reaction has not only caused more deaths it's encouraged them. Look at Japan who are closer to China, has twice our population and a higher proportion who are high risk. So at the very worst I'd expect our loses to be half of theirs, yet we've lost twice as many as them, 4 times the expectated worst case scenario. So if you do truly blame China you'd be blaming them for 7,500 people. That still leaves blood on the hands of every tory for the other 25,000 and counting. 

Speaking of death tolls you've not addressed how the death toll between all the murderers is relevant? 

What is the context in which schoolchildren 50 years from now discuss Boris in relation to Hitler and Mao?  Is it genocide or which single malt they prefer?

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

What is the context in which schoolchildren 50 years from now discuss Boris in relation to Hitler and Mao?  Is it genocide or which single malt they prefer?

Don't know what school you went to that taught you about their whisky preference. They are all murderers, they all are responsible for deaths of the very people they should be protecting. Mao starved his own, Hitler used chemistry. BJ has done both. I hope one day you read that response back and are have grown enough as a person to realise how callous it is. People are dying, needlessly, people are suffering because of this regime. 

Care to give a proper answer rather than make jokes when some people don't even have food in their stomachs? 

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

So does the conservative government. How many lives before you think it's not okay what they're doing? 

As for blaming China that's very xenophobic to the point you could even be mistaken for quoting Donald Trump. Would you say the same of any other virus? 

Any how your answer to how you can defend Conservatives seems to be it's china's fault... So even if we do blame China for starting it (and we'd lose people because of it). If you look at the rest of the world are reaction has not only caused more deaths it's encouraged them. Look at Japan who are closer to China, has twice our population and a higher proportion who are high risk. So at the very worst I'd expect our loses to be half of theirs, yet we've lost twice as many as them, 4 times the expectated worst case scenario. So if you do truly blame China you'd be blaming them for 7,500 people. That still leaves blood on the hands of every tory for the other 25,000 and counting. 

Speaking of death tolls you've not addressed how the death toll between all the murderers is relevant? 

 

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19 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Don't know what school you went to that taught you about their whisky preference. They are all murderers, they all are responsible for deaths of the very people they should be protecting. Mao starved his own, Hitler used chemistry. BJ has done both. I hope one day you read that response back and are have grown enough as a person to realise how callous it is. People are dying, needlessly, people are suffering because of this regime. 

Care to give a proper answer rather than make jokes when some people don't even have food in their stomachs? 

 

So at last we seem to have got somewhere.  You were comparing Boris to Mao and Hitler in the context of genocide.  At first, I thought it was just your usual outrageous OTT but I now realise you are serious.   You really need to see someone and get some counselling.  To use Scouse terminology 'get your bumps felt'.

Don't bother responding as I can't be bothered wasting time on you.

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13 minutes ago, johnh said:

So at last we seem to have got somewhere.  You were comparing Boris to Mao and Hitler in the context of genocide.  At first, I thought it was just your usual outrageous OTT but I now realise you are serious.   You really need to see someone and get some counselling.  To use Scouse terminology 'get your bumps felt'.

Don't bother responding as I can't be bothered wasting time on you.

Says it all that you think I need counselling for having some empathy and compassion. 

You had enough time to respond twice trying to divert away from my question so that a load of bollocks. So stop being a shit house and say it loud and proud, why you're xenophobic and believe the government is right to not protect people from hunger, from illness, from death. 

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

So does the conservative government. How many lives before you think it's not okay what they're doing? 

As for blaming China that's very xenophobic to the point you could even be mistaken for quoting Donald Trump. Would you say the same of any other virus? 

Any how your answer to how you can defend Conservatives seems to be it's china's fault... So even if we do blame China for starting it (and we'd lose people because of it). If you look at the rest of the world are reaction has not only caused more deaths it's encouraged them. Look at Japan who are closer to China, has twice our population and a higher proportion who are high risk. So at the very worst I'd expect our loses to be half of theirs, yet we've lost twice as many as them, 4 times the expectated worst case scenario. So if you do truly blame China you'd be blaming them for 7,500 people. That still leaves blood on the hands of every tory for the other 25,000 and counting. 

Speaking of death tolls you've not addressed how the death toll between all the murderers is relevant? 

 

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9 hours ago, pete0 said:

97137650_10157256919731586_1750052658900

Nah, they'll be shouting get back to work as they twist isolation being lazy people. Horrible cunts the lot of them. 

Didn't take them long

Teachers are lazy... 

https://mobile.twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1261318705465765894

Unions are to blame.. 

96946349_2334216846872381_17970630559352

Tory propaganda. How the fuck is this still happening in the 21st century. 

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2 hours ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Different governments though. Banks where bailed out by Gordon Brown's Labour Party. They should have been left to collapse or be fully nationalised. There should be no bailouts for banks and businesses, only nationalisation.

"Can you think of anybody who stuck up for the bankers as much as I did? I defended them day in, day out, from those who frankly wanted to hang them from the nearest lamppost." 

Not many people know this but this was actually Gordon Brown.. Dressed as BJ the clown.

The government acted with the full support of the opposition so... Any way what's your point for forcing people back to work and potentially killing them? 

 

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Just now, TallPaul1878 said:

Didn't say that though did I Karen. I said that it was a Labour government that bailed out the banks. It's wrong to conflate the two issues due to being different governments. How would a Labour government have handled the coronavirus pandemic?

Without a shadow of doubt a lot fucking better. Corbyn would have put the people first although the opposition would have put up a massive stink against helping people unlike when they helped bail out the bankers.

We'd have seen something a lot closer to New Zealand. People would be safer and less would be dead. 

(now get off your phone and back to work lazy arse) 

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Interesting article from The New Statesman about how bad Corbyn was (written by a Labour MP). 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/labour-leadership-race/2020/03/labours-mess-predictable-result-leader-and-philosophy-hated

 

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49 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Absolute twaddle Karen. The virus was here before anyone even knew about it because China covered it up. Could have been here as early as November according to researchers. How would Corbyn have prevented a virus from spreading undetected for 3 months in a huge city like London with it's massive population? The virus doesn't care about your political leanings or your hatred of anyone who is a little further right of Mao. It will infect who it will infect, they will survive or they will die. Lockdown isn't to stop the spread of the virus, it is to stop the collapse of the health service due to a lack of ICU beds. How would Corbyn have anticipated the virus and ramped up ICU production before the virus struck. We didn't need those beds until coronavirus, it was a none issue irrespective of NHS funding issues elsewhere.

Sweden hasn't done a lockdown at all, it is confident that the virus will spread and people will develop immunity. So is lockdown right or wrong then? Are Sweden going to regret not locking down like everywhere else? Or is it because Sweden simply doesn't have the population density that Britain has. Approx 7 million people live in London, Sweden's entire country is only 10 million.

I have sympathy for NHS staff who have lost their lives to coronavirus because their duty is to put themselves in harm's way in this instance but the other people who have died were always going to die of coronavirus because they are elderly or have multiple comorbidities. BAME, particular S.E Asian have lifestyles in which they live in multi-generational households, again a breeding ground for the virus.

It's lunchtime and I can spend as long as I like on my phone as I'm the only spark here and the program is slow. Have a nice day

You keep calling me Karen like it's an insult but the only person you're insulting is your mother by being mysomisogynistic, well unless her name is Karen and she she gives a fuck about people. If that's the case I'll take the compliment, you can even call me mum. 

Speaking of giving a fuck about people. Why do you care more about how the Chinese are treated by their government than how our government treats our population? 

Wow, wasn't expecting you to be a conspiracy nut. The UK knew about the virus in January, even published a health warning on the 23rd.  https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2020/01/23/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-what-you-need-to-know/

So we knew well in advance. We have lost more than most countries and that is solely on the government. Japan is more densely populated, as twice as many people as us, and have lost half as many lives all whilst being closer to the epicentre. How can I justify our governments approach? You've even answered your own question on Sweden. 

Regarding the NHS being fine until this. It's been underfunded for years, it's been on the brink and only managed to survive due to doctors and nurses going above and beyond. What far right website you been on that days otherwise? 

I don't think you're capable of sympathy. NHS staff don't have a duty to put themselves in harms way you absolute idiot. They are medical staff not soldiers. I get it, you're not old and you're white you'll be fine. Every one else can die. Bet you didn't stick to 2m rule you absolute selfish bastard. 

Ironic that you're a spark. I bet you're nickname on site is soft cunt or is that's your bosses for paying you to dick about on your phone. 

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1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Woah sonny, you can't post that here. This is a far left circle jerk don't ya know. You'll get dogpiled on and the circular firing squad will take potshots

Just after you posted this you said in another thread that it's just one person, is he a circle all by himself? Make your mind up.

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2 hours ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Calm down Karen

If you read my post you'd know I am calm. Guessing by you neglecting to address anything in it you must realise you were wrong. Hopefully you use this little education to be a better person in the future, or at least learn to make an informed decision. 

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52 minutes ago, Matt said:

Now that things have simmered down, I’ll reopen the thread.

also, wanted to share this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52806086
 

im as guilty as many for painting all politicians with the same brush, but kudos to him and the others (quite a few Torys) voicing their distain over this despicable action. 

I don’t think we are in condemnation of his actions because of his political persuasion, I’d like to think we would condemn anyone from any party for the same thing. 
He breached the lockdown guidelines and he should be setting an example, after all he was involved in putting the rules together. 

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21 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

2 weeks ago I was caught in a dilemma of what to do with my kids. The baby has had a number of hospital visits due to milk allergies and a floppy larynx. He has choked and stopped breathing twice and has been kept in for around 2 weeks off and on now. My wife doesn't drive due to her eyesight and I couldn't keep leaving the kids as they are 11 and 9 and not really mature enough to be home alone for any long periods.

Having discussed this with grandparents they insisted that, if needs be, we should take the children to them in Ormskirk. Not exactly London to Durham but certainly not within the household.

Fortunately this did not need to come to pass but I was in a situation where I needed to potentially make a judgement call on what to do with the kids. There is absolutely no way on God's Green Earth we would use any kind of social services.

Yes Cummings made a judgement call and, with hindsight, it seemed to be a bad one. But this media storm is nothing but manufactured outrage. If Cummings and Boris stick to their guns and tough the media storm out they will have proven to the rest of the party what they already know, the London media is completely out of touch with the rest of the country. What the big urban centres think and say is irrelevant. They represent about 1/6 of the population, that's not enough to win an election. We are at the dawn of a new kind of politics. Bloc voting!

For me the worst thing he did was to take his family on a fifty-odd mile round trip to check if his eyesight was OK to drive back to London; what if it wasn't? He could've killed them all or, worse, an innocent passer-by. 

I agree on the social services point though but surely a man in his position would be able to source some child-care in London. He's not exactly short of a few bob is he?

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31 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

2 weeks ago I was caught in a dilemma of what to do with my kids. The baby has had a number of hospital visits due to milk allergies and a floppy larynx. He has choked and stopped breathing twice and has been kept in for around 2 weeks off and on now. My wife doesn't drive due to her eyesight and I couldn't keep leaving the kids as they are 11 and 9 and not really mature enough to be home alone for any long periods.

Having discussed this with grandparents they insisted that, if needs be, we should take the children to them in Ormskirk. Not exactly London to Durham but certainly not within the household.

Fortunately this did not need to come to pass but I was in a situation where I needed to potentially make a judgement call on what to do with the kids. There is absolutely no way on God's Green Earth we would use any kind of social services.

Yes Cummings made a judgement call and, with hindsight, it seemed to be a bad one. But this media storm is nothing but manufactured outrage. If Cummings and Boris stick to their guns and tough the media storm out they will have proven to the rest of the party what they already know, the London media is completely out of touch with the rest of the country. What the big urban centres think and say is irrelevant. They represent about 1/6 of the population, that's not enough to win an election. We are at the dawn of a new kind of politics. Bloc voting!

If you believe his story in its entirety then you could possibly say it was wrong in hindsight but forgivable under the circumstances.

 I believe what you have said about your own personal circumstances, and wouldn’t consider condemning you if you had to take the decisions you stated. 
But I do not believe a lot of his accounts on why and what he did, for me he has made up a tissue of lies to try and justify why he was seen doing what he shouldn’t have been doing, give him an hour with kier Starmer and the truth will soon come out.  

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