Mindless Atrocities

[Paddock]

In denial, who'd want to believe that of their son?

You'd get the facts before you spouted that though mate.

[Paddock]

He did. Couldn't believe it myself.

I suppose none of us know how he feels. The love I have for my kids is absolutely unconditional but even I don't think I could forgive and still love a son who had done that.

[Romey 1878]

In denial, who'd want to believe that of their son?

 

Pretty hard not to when you could now fit him in a matchbox.

 

I suppose none of us know how he feels. The love I have for my kids is absolutely unconditional but even I don't think I could forgive and still love a son who had done that.

He could still love him but to say he's innocent is ludicrous. If it'd been a planted bomb and they were looking for the culprit it'd be different. But he strapped a bomb to himself, full of nails, detonated it to kill actual innocent people and took himself with it. There's no innocence there.

[MikeO]

You'd get the facts before you spouted that though mate.

 

Depends on his take on "innocent" I guess. Is he thinking, "there's no way my son could've done this" or is he thinking, "there's no way my son would've done this had he not been a pawn for the real bad guys"? Can't imagine a father's mental state in the circumstances.

 

 

Pretty hard not to when you could now fit him in a matchbox.

 

Take your point but the state of his remains is pretty irrelevant to either his victims or the people left behind, be they his family or the families of the killed.

[Romey 1878]

Depends on his take on "innocent" I guess. Is he thinking, "there's no way my son could've done this" or is he thinking, "there's no way my son would've done this had he not been a pawn for the real bad guys"? Can't imagine a father's mental state in the circumstances.

 

 

 

 

Take your point but the state of his remains is pretty irrelevant to either his victims or the people left behind, be they his family or the families of the killed.

 

Course it is. His remains show he isn't innocent, he committed the act and that's a fact. How can he be innocent if it's been proven because the man is dead?

 

His family came here to escape the shit place they came from and this is how it's repaid? One son killing himself in order to kill others, another son arrested on suspicion of being part of it, and father who claims his killer son is in fact innocent. Nice one!

[MikeO]

Course it is. His remains show he isn't innocent, he committed the act and that's a fact. How can he be innocent if it's been proven because the man is dead?

 

His family came here to escape the shit place they came from and this is how it's repaid? One son killing himself in order to kill others, another son arrested on suspicion of being part of it, and father who claims his killer son is in fact innocent. Nice one!

 

My point was just that the state of his remains aren't relevant. I'm not saying he's innocent I'm just trying to look at it from his father's perspective; man who came here to avoid arrest in Gaddafi's Libya, made a success of himself and went back when it was safe to return to his homeland. The actions of his son are in no way a "repayment" by the family for the the UK acting in the way it always should, looking after people who need it from wherever they happen to come from.

[Romey 1878]

My point was just that the state of his remains aren't relevant. I'm not saying he's innocent I'm just trying to look at it from his father's perspective; man who came here to avoid arrest in Gaddafi's Libya, made a success of himself and went back when it was safe to return to his homeland. The actions of his son are in no way a "repayment" by the family for the the UK acting in the way it always should, looking after people who need it from wherever they happen to come from.

I beg to differ but hey ho.

[Hafnia]

Drag that murdering bastard Tony Blair up in court - that would be a start.

 

How does he sleep at night? - he helped start the dominoes that has led up to this. He was warned....warned that the unjust war would trugger these sorts of attacks.

[aaron]

The only people that can stop these "Radicals" is other Muslims. Yet everytime something like this happens all they do is try is defend their faith.

Well that's not right because he was reported by Muslims in his neighbourhood and at the mosque he attended :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/security-services-missed-five-opportunities-stop-manchester/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

So tell me, how much more can they do?

[pete0]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4542346/RAF-crew-write-Love-Manchester-Hellfire-missile.html?ito=social-facebook

 

Poor taste imo. Wouldn't be surprised if this bomb takes the lives of innocent children as well.

[MikeO]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4542346/RAF-crew-write-Love-Manchester-Hellfire-missile.html?ito=social-facebook

 

Poor taste imo. Wouldn't be surprised if this bomb takes the lives of innocent children as well.

 

Sickening.

[Bill]

Needless and stupid, nobody on the ground will get to see anything of the bomb or what's on it, cos both will be blasted into little pieces.

[Hafnia]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4542346/RAF-crew-write-Love-Manchester-Hellfire-missile.html?ito=social-facebook

 

Poor taste imo. Wouldn't be surprised if this bomb takes the lives of innocent children as well.

I'm voting for corbyn.... 100%.

 

he was against invading Iraq... he was against bombing Syria.... he understands the cause and effect scenarios.

 

Innocent children have been getting killed by the hundreds year after year in our "war on terror"... Blair needs locking up.

 

I honestly don't know what the cure is to the problems we are seeing but I know what caused them.... we created a vacuum ... Blair ignored the warnings from mi5 and gaddaffi himself.

 

Isis don't have to do much recruiting when pictures like this are published.

[Chach]

I'm voting for corbyn.... 100%.

 

he was against invading Iraq... he was against bombing Syria.... he understands the cause and effect scenarios.

 

Innocent children have been getting killed by the hundreds year after year in our "war on terror"... Blair needs locking up.

 

I honestly don't know what the cure is to the problems we are seeing but I know what caused them.... we created a vacuum ... Blair ignored the warnings from mi5 and gaddaffi himself.

 

Isis don't have to do much recruiting when pictures like this are published.

 

For someone who likes to place so much emphasis on stats you seem to have a pretty myopic view on the cause of the current situation. There's not too many people who would say that the foreign policy of the west hasn't exacerbated the incidents in western countries but to try and hang it all at Blair's door is disingenuous to say the least.

[Bailey]

I'm voting for corbyn.... 100%.

 

he was against invading Iraq... he was against bombing Syria.... he understands the cause and effect scenarios.

 

Innocent children have been getting killed by the hundreds year after year in our "war on terror"... Blair needs locking up.

 

I honestly don't know what the cure is to the problems we are seeing but I know what caused them.... we created a vacuum ... Blair ignored the warnings from mi5 and gaddaffi himself.

 

Isis don't have to do much recruiting when pictures like this are published.

Corbyn and Mcdonnell that both supported the IRA?

 

Corbyn that voted against stricter anti terror laws?

 

Corbyn that seems to be forgetting that 9/11 happened before Iraq/Afghan?

 

There are more but I can't remember them without research.

 

If you are going to vote for Corbyn please don't let it be for this reason as he is pulling the wool over your eyes.

 

I also wonder what the people who have been fortunate to escape from the terror brought upon them by Al Qaeda or Hussain would have to say about his comments.

[Hafnia]

Corbyn and Mcdonnell that both supported the IRA?

 

Corbyn that voted against stricter anti terror laws?

 

Corbyn that seems to be forgetting that 9/11 happened before Iraq/Afghan?

 

There are more but I can't remember them without research.

 

If you are going to vote for Corbyn please don't let it be for this reason as he is pulling the wool over your eyes.

 

I also wonder what the people who have been fortunate to escape from the terror brought upon them by Al Qaeda or Hussain would have to say about his comments.

"Supported"... or tried to engineer a diplomatic way of ending all the deaths... to try and see the other sides view on things? To understand the cause of the rage...

 

He has always said war is not a means of solving things and that political dialogue should always come first.

 

Wasn't 911 a supposed result of America's support of Israel... their troops being located in Saudi Arabia and supporting dictators?

Edited May 27, 2017 by Hafnia

[Paddock]

Every single last one of them are as bad as each other.

[Bailey]

"Supported"... or tried to engineer a diplomatic way of ending all the deaths... to try and see the other sides view on things? To understand the cause of the rage...

 

He has always said war is not a means of solving things and that political dialogue should always come first.

 

Wasn't 911 a supposed result of America's support of Israel... their troops being located in Saudi Arabia and supporting dictators?

No he supports them, when questioned he doesn't deny it he just avoids answering. He attended the funerals of the IRA but not those of the British. Even members of the IRA have said he had absolutely no effect on to the peace process which he and his supporters claim.

 

The latest terrorists have nothing to do with our foreign policy. They are mentally unsound British people who have fallen for the words of someone else. If Corbyn is right what exactly did Belgium do? How much involvement have Germany and France in foreign policy in the middle east?

 

Kurdish troops who are leading the fight against ISIS on the ground have said that the strategic bombing / air strikes from countries such as ours is helping them beat ISIS. What do you do help try and defeat them on the ground or not get involved for fear of a domestic attack? Bearing in mind these domestic attacks can come from people who have never been to these affected countries?

 

Corbyn is also against a shoot to kill policy. I suspect he wants the police to speak to these terrorists and talk them round.

[Hafnia]

No he supports them, when questioned he doesn't deny it he just avoids answering. He attended the funerals of the IRA but not those of the British. Even members of the IRA have said he had absolutely no effect on to the peace process which he and his supporters claim.

 

The latest terrorists have nothing to do with our foreign policy. They are mentally unsound British people who have fallen for the words of someone else. If Corbyn is right what exactly did Belgium do? How much involvement have Germany and France in foreign policy in the middle east?

 

Kurdish troops who are leading the fight against ISIS on the ground have said that the strategic bombing / air strikes from countries such as ours is helping them beat ISIS. What do you do help try and defeat them on the ground or not get involved for fear of a domestic attack? Bearing in mind these domestic attacks can come from people who have never been to these affected countries?

 

Corbyn is also against a shoot to kill policy. I suspect he wants the police to speak to these terrorists and talk them round.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/the-tories-are-so-rattled-that-theyre.html?m=1

 

He doesnt cosy up to the right wing media.... don't allow yourself to fall victim to propaganda.

[pete0]

No he supports them, when questioned he doesn't deny it he just avoids answering. He attended the funerals of the IRA but not those of the British. Even members of the IRA have said he had absolutely no effect on to the peace process which he and his supporters claim.

 

The latest terrorists have nothing to do with our foreign policy. They are mentally unsound British people who have fallen for the words of someone else. If Corbyn is right what exactly did Belgium do? How much involvement have Germany and France in foreign policy in the middle east?

 

Kurdish troops who are leading the fight against ISIS on the ground have said that the strategic bombing / air strikes from countries such as ours is helping them beat ISIS. What do you do help try and defeat them on the ground or not get involved for fear of a domestic attack? Bearing in mind these domestic attacks can come from people who have never been to these affected countries?

 

Corbyn is also against a shoot to kill policy. I suspect he wants the police to speak to these terrorists and talk them round.

It's scary how susceptible some people are.

[Hafnia]

It's scary how susceptible some people are.

Isn't it....

 

They lap up Murdoch's media like it's the absolute truth... you would think the people in our region were sceptical of the Tory influenced media. Clearly fighting to get the truth about a disaster for 30 years wasn't enough....

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/theworldturnedupsidedownne.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/15-times-jeremy-corbyn-was-on-the-right-side-of-history/amp/

 

That's what I call a leader....

Edited May 27, 2017 by Hafnia

[Cornish Steve]

Strategic bombing may help win a victory on the ground for the Kurds, but it won't stop an ideology. Far from it: it will fuel it.

 

Yes, it was the policy of George W that, in effect, created ISIS - perhaps the biggest foreign policy mistake since WW-II. Would a similar group have sprouted up if the US and its allies had not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? We'll never know, but I doubt it would have been as extreme or militarized. What's done, however, is done. We don't need to compound the mistake, though, by killing more innocents or blaming all Muslims - as Donald Trump appears to encourage.

 

As for terrorists, it's easy to forget just how many innocent people were killed during the height of the Irish troubles. It was far more than have been killed in Europe by ISIS. Working in London in the 80s, I remember the daily bomb threats and evacuations and the occasional sound of a bomb going off. A little perspective doesn't go amiss. ISIS would kill the lot of us if they could, though: few worried about that level of hatred until recent times. Maybe that's the difference.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Cornish Steve

[holystove]

true enough. this millennium has been relatively peaceful.

 

http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2016-12/terror20161220-i2.png

Edited May 27, 2017 by holystove

[Chach]

 

Yes, it was the policy of George W that, in effect, created ISIS - perhaps the biggest foreign policy mistake since WW-II. Would a similar group have sprouted up if the US and its allies had not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? We'll never know...

 

 

Salafism has been around since the 18th century and active in politics since the 1920's, ISIS are basically Al Queda separatists which has its roots in Russian foreign policy.

It's easy to make arguments against Afghanistan and Iraq 2.0 but what would a correct response to Saddam's annexation of Kuwait have been?

[Formby]

I live 300 yards from the MEN arena and heard the bomb go off. I grew up in Ireland in the 70's so was kind of used to seeing police and soldiers on the streets from a young age. Seeing armed officers again in such large numbers brought it all back. My little boy was initially amazed to see police carrying guns so close but at night, he was frightened, and asked me if we were safe. I gave him the usual platitudes because I didn't want him to worry but the fact is we're not. A consequence of the increased police presence is a reduction in low level crime in the city centre and immediate environs. Rather than scumbags on mountain bikes shouting abuse at fat coppers in yellow trying to chase them, the boot is on the other foot. The police are not messing around and are going in hard. I have always been an advocate of relaxed policing but have also seen Manchester city centre overrun by criminal gangs with a terrible knock on effect for the community. I think I'd quite like to feel safe again, and my boy to feel safe, and families feel safe, so if that meant armed police on the streets, I'm all for it.

Edited May 28, 2017 by formby

[SimonButtle]

Did anyone else hear the bomber's old friend talking? some rapper calling himself ghecko(never heard of him myself, im more Grandmaster Flash/Public Enemy) he claims there is a group of people in Manchester going round brainwashing these kids and recruiting them for ISIS. That is a very worrying thing if true. I saw all the Police with guns when i was in Brighton the other day, i found it all a bit strange, i wonder how long they will be like that.

[pete0]

Did anyone else hear the bomber's old friend talking? some rapper calling himself ghecko(never heard of him myself, im more Grandmaster Flash/Public Enemy) he claims there is a group of people in Manchester going round brainwashing these kids and recruiting them for ISIS. That is a very worrying thing if true. I saw all the Police with guns when i was in Brighton the other day, i found it all a bit strange, i wonder how long they will be like that.

Very believable.

There were people at my uni (Manchester) that went the same college in Oldham, but only spoke to each other once they where at uni together as they stayed in their groups at home. At uni there was also a clear divide between the Asians, I'd go as far to say there was ISIS sympathises, and real hate between the more radical and the less. Extremist are the minority, but it's a minority that groups together and actively tries to influence others. 10% of this country vote UKIP who have a lot less material to influence people with, so I'd expect there to be upwards of that in the sympathisers camp for ISIS.

 

I'd go as far to say Manchester has no community spirit other than in small pockets, there's far too much segregation. I've lived central and south, and the only place were the neighbours were friendly was one locals boozer (on the edge of Fallowfield/Rusholme/Moss side) where everyone mixed, unfortunately the council then had the fuckery do dar to closedown the pub to build an Aldi. Cross over a bridge into Salford and the people are rougher and poorer, but most noticeably nicer. The council and government should take responsibility, not hide that it is one offs. They have caused this problem by burying their heads in the sand.

[Hafnia]

Intergration doesnt work. Sadly.

 

The negatives are too noisy...

Edited May 28, 2017 by Hafnia

[MikeO]

Intergration doesnt work. Sadly.

 

The negatives are too noisy...

 

It can't not work, too late for that. You can't put the genie back in the bottle; and I wouldn't want to. In many areas it does work anyway.

 

It only doesn't work for people who are uneducated or just plain stupid, there will always be people like that but you can't let them win.

[Hafnia]

 

It can't not work, too late for that. You can't put the genie back in the bottle; and I wouldn't want to. In many areas it does work anyway.

 

It only doesn't work for people who are uneducated or just plain stupid, there will always be people like that but you can't let them win.

I've got to be 100% truthful when I say this - because I think it helps people understand the challenges.

 

My instinct from a sexual/race irrespective has never been text book in terms of diversity. The person I am in accepting everyone as equal has taken a large dose of empathising, thinking, soul searching.... using my brain and morals - maturing.

 

For a period I would say I would have considered myself uncomfortable with homosexuality- was that more of an issue in me being a younger self and examining my own sexuality? Maybe. But either way I didn't like the "in your face" tone that you can encounter. I have stated that to my gay friends... and they are in agreement with me. I've had a bloke walk up and try and shove his hand down my jeans in garlands - if a female did the same in the same circumstances I would have been pissed off... as I was when it did happen when I picked my brother up from a boozer in ellesmere port.

 

From a race perspective I grew up with a black best friend. I never had any problems individually - but when it came to a large group of black tourists in barbados on my honeymoon who basically took the piss in our hotel - i really did struggle. The bajans who worked at the hotel were absolutely horrified at the behaviour. "Hey white boy... what time is it" was the shout from the group when I walked past. But... haven't we all encountered awful families on holidays with white skin who are probably worse behaved.

 

 

So.... what's the common denominator? I'm fine with diversity. I fight for equal rights. But I do not like people aggressively shoving their culture/preference in my face. This I believe comes from them having an 'attack is best form of defence mentality. When people of less tolerant mindsets face this it's not good.

 

People look for offence too easily these days... there is too much divide in the haves and have nots.

 

People may look at my post and think I'm a secret homophobe or racist.... I'm not. I'm being totally honest with my experiences and how they made me feel and explaining what is required to overcome any persuasions of becoming a bigot.