Midfield

[MikeO]

11 minutes ago, StevO said:

How many prospects have we had that have made it in the last 20 years? Rooney, Rodwell, Barkley and Davies? If one player makes it that’s great but it’s not the norm. 

How in the world are Ossie and Hibbo not mentioned in that Ste?

Not disagreeing with your point, just pointing out two major omissions.

[Finn balor]

Yeah that is a point

[Finn balor]

Don’t think we’ve don’t too bad in our youth  set up. 

[London Blue]

 

31 minutes ago, StevO said:

How many prospects have we had that have made it in the last 20 years? Rooney, Rodwell, Barkley and Davies? If one player makes it that’s great but it’s not the norm. 

Mason Holgate and DCL are progressing nicely, Kenny is doing well in Germany.

34 minutes ago, StevO said:

If we didn’t have so many injured midfielders we wouldn’t even have Davies playing. 

I think we would, he is 4th? in our MOTM rankings, he is way better than Schneiderlin, Delph or Siggy. 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

not sure if this is a joke, he was a spurs and played for them.  plenty good enough.

No joke. He never made it at Spurs and went back to Swansea. When were they a top 4 team? 

[nogs]

39 minutes ago, StevO said:

So each team has 20 or so lads in the under 23s team, one player making it into the first team from that is a tiny minority. If we didn’t have so many injured midfielders we wouldn’t even have Davies playing. 
How many prospects have we had that have made it in the last 20 years? Rooney, Rodwell, Barkley and Davies? If one player makes it that’s great but it’s not the norm. 
 

If Chelsea didn’t have a transfer ban these kids don’t get in their team. United have Rashford, but would the others get in if they weren’t so all over the place? Liverpool are the best team in the league and they have one, just one. Spurs bucked the trend due to the great work Poch did. 
City have Foden, that kid is an exceptional talent and hopefully he makes it, but they don’t have more of them lined up. 
Kids don’t come through in the premier league at any decent rate. 

What you're right about Steve is that academy graduates haven't had a great record of breaking through into PL teams. But why is that? Lack of ability? I see it as partly due to fashion. Before Wenger put together that great Arsenal team of the late 90s, where did most top flight clubs focus on for recruitment? The lower leagues and their own youth systems. Then everyone wanted to be like Arsenal, the PL was flush with Sky money and for 20 years it has been really hard for young players to break through. 

But isn't it funny how, with Brexit looming and a few clubs having to be a bit careful with FFP, there are suddenly a load more young kids playing top flight football again? 

(and by the way, you're way off just singling out Rashford at Man Utd. McTominay? Lingard? Greenwood?) 

[nogs]

13 minutes ago, nogs said:

No joke. He never made it at Spurs and went back to Swansea. When were they a top 4 team? 

Just checked it. The two seasons Sigurdsson was at Spurs they finished 5th and 6th. So he has never played for a team that has finished in the Top 4 of the PL. 

[StevO]

59 minutes ago, MikeO said:

How in the world are Ossie and Hibbo not mentioned in that Ste?

Not disagreeing with your point, just pointing out two major omissions.

To be honest Mike in my head they were both way before the others, my age is catching up with me as the years go by. I played In The Air Tonight to my apprentice today, he thought it was just a jingle from an advert when he was a kid. 

[StevO]

38 minutes ago, London Blue said:

 

Mason Holgate and DCL are progressing nicely, Kenny is doing well in Germany.

I think we would, he is 4th? in our MOTM rankings, he is way better than Schneiderlin, Delph or Siggy. 

We signed Holgate, we signed DCL, I hope Kenny goes on to play in our first team on a regular basis. 
 

We might think he’s better than them, but our last few managers didn’t and they pick the team. 

[StevO]

42 minutes ago, nogs said:

What you're right about Steve is that academy graduates haven't had a great record of breaking through into PL teams. But why is that? Lack of ability? I see it as partly due to fashion. Before Wenger put together that great Arsenal team of the late 90s, where did most top flight clubs focus on for recruitment? The lower leagues and their own youth systems. Then everyone wanted to be like Arsenal, the PL was flush with Sky money and for 20 years it has been really hard for young players to break through. 

But isn't it funny how, with Brexit looming and a few clubs having to be a bit careful with FFP, there are suddenly a load more young kids playing top flight football again? 

(and by the way, you're way off just singling out Rashford at Man Utd. McTominay? Lingard? Greenwood?) 

I agree with all of what you say mate. I honestly think the reason these lads don’t make it is patience. Or lack of it. Us fans want instant success, the board and owners want instant success. A player has to be the next Wayne Rooney to get in the team otherwise we’ll just go and buy someone better rather than give a lad a chance. Managers get fired if they lose a few games, so they don’t take the risk. 

I really don’t think Brexit will have an impact, the PL is probably the biggest UK export (if it could be called that), they will get some special treatment I think.

On United, I singled out Rashford because he’s the only one playing every week. McTiminay looks a good player, but they still went and spent £150 on Pogba and Fred while he was there, just turns out they are shite too. Lingard has done great over the last decade, no doubt.
 

Id really love to see an Everton team full of lads we’ve developed, but if we could win the league without them I wouldn’t complain. I try to be a realist, I’m so used to seeing Jose Baxter, JP Kissock and many others on the brink of being the next big thing and it not happening. So when I see our fans expect a kid to make it, I know they have a slim to none chance, but we throw the pressure on them anyway. Then when we do get kids that make it, we make the pressure even more unbearable because they have to be a saviour. If a kid makes it, it’s great for them and it’s a bonus for the team. 
 

[markjazzbassist]

Ste has given the stats before.  youngsters making it through, something like 2-5% make it and even then just being in the first team is considered making it.  1% or less are actual quality players.  Tough odds for sure.  
 

yeah I’m positive about our kids cause I’m a homer (American term used for people always too optimistic about their team).  I realize Beni will probably be playing in league 1 in a few years but I can dream eh?

[Bailey]

14 hours ago, nogs said:

At what point in his career has Sigurdsson ever been good enough for Top 4?? 

Apart from a slight lack of pace Siggurdson has every other characteristic to play in a top 4 team. He is probably our most talented and hard working footballer, which I know a lot of people won't necessarily agree with, put the problem for us is that he has constantly been a square peg in a round hole.

The argument about him never playing for a top 4 side is BS when you look at the number of players that are shite who have played for top 4 clubs (Djemba Djemba, Aliadiere, Mikel etc etc). 

 

[Palfy]

12 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

cause I’m a homer

Simpson

[StevO]

12 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Ste has given the stats before.  youngsters making it through, something like 2-5% make it and even then just being in the first team is considered making it.  1% or less are actual quality players.  Tough odds for sure.  
 

yeah I’m positive about our kids cause I’m a homer (American term used for people always too optimistic about their team).  I realize Beni will probably be playing in league 1 in a few years but I can dream eh?

No harm in dreaming Mark, couldn’t have been worse than Gylfi in our midfield today. 

[nogs]

5 hours ago, Bailey said:

Apart from a slight lack of pace Siggurdson has every other characteristic to play in a top 4 team. He is probably our most talented and hard working footballer, which I know a lot of people won't necessarily agree with, put the problem for us is that he has constantly been a square peg in a round hole.

The argument about him never playing for a top 4 side is BS when you look at the number of players that are shite who have played for top 4 clubs (Djemba Djemba, Aliadiere, Mikel etc etc). 

 

But he never has and unless he sorts his form out for us never will. I honestly don't get why people still defend him. Square peg in a round hole? Well I just don't know what hole he belongs in, utterly underwhelming everywhere he plays. I hope one of Ancellotti's first decisions is to make it clear we can't afford to carry a £45m passenger and moves him on. 

[MC11]

20 hours ago, Newty82 said:

...and let's be honest, Tom Davies is only in there because of injuries.

Tom would be great for someone like Preston North End or Wigan. Not Everton FC

[Newty82]

12 minutes ago, MC11 said:

Tom would be great for someone like Preston North End or Wigan. Not Everton FC

I don't mind him but I'm still seeing the same things as 3 years ago. So the progress ain't there. Will have a good pro career though.

And that's the thing with the youth. They come in and look ok. But the ones who make it look brilliant. Then there's numerous other factors that dictate if they'll make it or not. It's more than just talent.

At then end of it all, in this money rich environment, player turnover is huge. Patience is low. The youth have to show constant improvement. If they still look the same 3 years later - I'm talking about the standard level players - they most likely won't be more than a squad filler at this level.

[London Blue]

19 hours ago, StevO said:

We signed Holgate, we signed DCL, I hope Kenny goes on to play in our first team on a regular basis. 
 

We might think he’s better than them, but our last few managers didn’t and they pick the team. 

Yes we did and they went through our youth system, ie playing and developing under Unsy in the U23's.

The last few managers have been failures so I place less faith in their opinion.

Jonjo has played 15 times for  Schalke who are 5th in the league, and they want him to stay, I think he is going to be a very good player.

[Aidan]

3 hours ago, Newty82 said:

I don't mind him but I'm still seeing the same things as 3 years ago. So the progress ain't there. Will have a good pro career though.

And that's the thing with the youth. They come in and look ok. But the ones who make it look brilliant. Then there's numerous other factors that dictate if they'll make it or not. It's more than just talent.

At then end of it all, in this money rich environment, player turnover is huge. Patience is low. The youth have to show constant improvement. If they still look the same 3 years later - I'm talking about the standard level players - they most likely won't be more than a squad filler at this level.

Anthony Gordon the next one to come through, have a good feeling about him he looks a cut above. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, London Blue said:

Yes we did and they went through our youth system, ie playing and developing under Unsy in the U23's.

The last few managers have been failures so I place less faith in their opinion.

Jonjo has played 15 times for  Schalke who are 5th in the league, and they want him to stay, I think he is going to be a very good player.

They had played first team league football before coming here. 

In respect of Jonjoe, do you think he looked up to the task on a regular basis when he played last season? I didn't,  even though I thought he did well in some games. 

[Finn balor]

We need rid of gilfi, Morgan. Let’s hope we are aiming big as we have missed a midfield general 

[London Blue]

On 21/12/2019 at 22:14, Bailey said:

They had played first team league football before coming here. 

In respect of Jonjoe, do you think he looked up to the task on a regular basis when he played last season? I didn't,  even though I thought he did well in some games. 

For lower league teams, they were bought for their potential and still developed with the u23s.

In regard to Jonjo, given the form and injuries to Coleman yes Inthink he was upntonthe job, he just needed games, which he is getting now, and he is showing howngoid he can be.

[StevO]

7 hours ago, London Blue said:

For lower league teams, they were bought for their potential and still developed with the u23s.

So, they didn’t come through our academy then did they? They signed for us as professional footballers, as they were already professional footballers at their previous lower league clubs. 

[Bailey]

On 23/12/2019 at 12:59, London Blue said:

For lower league teams, they were bought for their potential and still developed with the u23s.

In regard to Jonjo, given the form and injuries to Coleman yes Inthink he was upntonthe job, he just needed games, which he is getting now, and he is showing howngoid he can be.

I just repeat what StevO said in response to the first line.

In respect of the second, have you seen him play for Schalke?

 

[Shukes]

We do buy players to come to our academy, and progress with them.

DCL, Davies, JJ, Dowell, all played for England and won a U20 World Cup medal while playing in our U18 team. 
 

Not exactly a failure. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

We do buy players to come to our academy, and progress with them.

DCL, Davies, JJ, Dowell, all played for England and won a U20 World Cup medal while playing in our U18 team. 
 

Not exactly a failure. 

But that still isn’t the point. The point is that players rarely come through the academy (not signing as current professionals) and play for the premier league team they came from. 
 

Failure isn’t the point here. 

[Shukes]

47 minutes ago, StevO said:

But that still isn’t the point. The point is that players rarely come through the academy (not signing as current professionals) and play for the premier league team they came from. 
 

Failure isn’t the point here. 

Not demand that at all. Just pointing out that ours is towards the better end, rather than the poorer end.

[MikeO]

15 hours ago, StevO said:

But that still isn’t the point. The point is that players rarely come through the academy (not signing as current professionals) and play for the premier league team they came from. 

See John Lundstram, missed a trick letting him go; nice one Roberto.

Just had a gander at a Sheff U forum and they're talking about him getting close to an England call-up.

[StevO]

53 minutes ago, MikeO said:

See John Lundstram, missed a trick letting him go; nice one Roberto.

Just had a gander at a Sheff U forum and they're talking about him getting close to an England call-up.

Agree mate. He’s been really impressive this season. But he’s also put the work in at the lower level to get here, all that game time will have developed him. If we’d have kept hold of him and not been exposed to as much game time he may not be this good now. 

[pete0]

5 hours ago, MikeO said:

See John Lundstram, missed a trick letting him go; nice one Roberto.

Just had a gander at a Sheff U forum and they're talking about him getting close to an England call-up.

Strange thing is he struggled to get in their team last season.