Should we sack our manager?

[MC11]

1 minute ago, hafnia said:

For this line up alone... yes. 

He just isn't learning is he.horrendous

[Hafnia]

4 minutes ago, MC11 said:

He just isn't learning is he.horrendous

I'm absolutely astonished.  He is a buffoon.   We are gonna get absolutely battered.  Not in goals but in terms of territory and possession and chances. 

[Guest]

AGAIN.... Martinez would have sent out a more attacking side, we would have created far more chances, but if it ends 4-0, he hasn't got a fucking clue and doesn't know how to defend.

 

can someone tell me the difference.

[Mirallas]

19 hours ago, Newty82 said:

Frank De Boer is available...he was a favourite.

Not mine, dude.... really not mine.

[Newty82]

3 minutes ago, Mirallas said:

Not mine, dude.... really not mine.

Yeah I remember that actually!!

[MC11]

31 minutes ago, yamar said:

AGAIN.... Martinez would have sent out a more attacking side, we would have created far more chances, but if it ends 4-0, he hasn't got a fucking clue and doesn't know how to defend.

 

can someone tell me the difference.

There has to be a happy medium between both. Koeman seems to be very negative. I still can't work out how he likes his team to play and also how they are to win games.

[Zoo 2.0]

4 hours ago, hafnia said:

For this line up alone... yes. 

I was shocked at the line-up when it was announced but it's hard to know whether it would have worked or not when you consider the deadlock was broken so early. It wasn't as though Manchester United took advantage of our poor shape or broke through the lines it was a case of Antonio Valencia hitting an absolutely world-class strike into the top corner of the goal. For all we know that formation could have worked and got us a point. 

1 hour ago, MC11 said:

There has to be a happy medium between both. Koeman seems to be very negative. I still can't work out how he likes his team to play and also how they are to win games.

Koeman was raised on the theory of ''Total Football'' by his mentor Johan Cruyff. The latter confesses as much in his autobiography. As a result Ronald wants us to dominate possession, defend from attack and in theory dominate the game in all areas of the pitch which is why he has bought so many creative players in the summer. People have been complaining about these players all playing in the same position but in the theory of ''Total Football'' each player plays in each position, the striker should be able to drop deep into the midfield, the goalkeeper should be comfortable with the ball at his feet and if need be a defender should be expected to push up the pitch and help in attacking areas. 

The problem we face that instead of playing with the likes of Xavi, Lionel Messi or even Koeman himself we are playing with the likes of Cuco Martina and the absolute car crash that is Ashley Williams. Once we start winning games the players will grow in confidence and from growing in confidence the games will start getting better and better for us, we'll start to dominate again and play how the manager wants us to, how we were playing when we qualified for European football after a three year exile.

[rubecula]

what price Derek Mountfield Mk.II

[London Blue]

2 hours ago, yamar said:

AGAIN.... Martinez would have sent out a more attacking side, we would have created far more chances, but if it ends 4-0, he hasn't got a fucking clue and doesn't know how to defend.

 

can someone tell me the difference.

Koeman improved our defensive record in the first season he was here.

Koeman improved Southampton and got them into europe.

Koeman won titles as a manager

Martinez turned our defense into a joke.

Martinez got Wigan relegated.

Martinez won the FA cup and got Wigan relegated.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Koeman improved our defensive record in the first season he was here.

Koeman improved Southampton and got them into europe.

Koeman won titles as a manager

Martinez turned our defense into a joke.

Martinez got Wigan relegated.

Martinez won the FA cup and got Wigan relegated.

Martinez also had a good defensive record first season.

Did Koeman improve Southampton. I'm sure they got to a cup final after him. And he was eliminated in the play offs in Europe.

He won titles. So did De Boer..

Wigan have fell down another division since. He kept them in the premiership a longer than they realistically should have.

Martinez won a cup with a team that will never win a cup again in their lifetime.

Martinez is the first manager to qualify for the world cup.

Again, I'm not a massive Martinez fan. I'm merely playing devils advocate and asking the question.... If we have the same (if not worse defensive record) after the first five games, but regressed going forward, why was it not allowed under Martinez but OK with Koeman?

[MC11]

Forget Martinez he was an asshat. Koeman just doesn't fit the Everton philosophy. We just don't play like a typical Everton team. Not exciting at all

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, MC11 said:

Forget Martinez he was an asshat. Koeman just doesn't fit the Everton philosophy. We just don't play like a typical Everton team. Not exciting at all

I get what your saying but I remember being excited to watch everton in Martinez's first season. We played some really exciting football. I remember a certain away game around Christmas were we played Norwich away. I've never seen us dominate a side so much away from home.

In the next three weeks following this, people started getting on his back about getting the ball up to lukaku quicker, he left behind everything he had the team doing, and doing well. A season and a half later, he totally lost is identity... I truelly believe this was due to pressure from our crowd.

[London Blue]

15 minutes ago, yamar said:

Martinez also had a good defensive record first season. - Because he inherited Moyes defense, Koeman inherited Martinez's shambles 

Did Koeman improve Southampton. I'm sure they got to a cup final after him. And he was eliminated in the play offs in Europe. Yes he got them into Europe twice, highest points total and best finish, so yes I would say he improved them.

He won titles. So did De Boer.. 

Wigan have fell down another division since. He kept them in the premiership a longer than they realistically should have. Once he took over Wigan their performances in the league fell away and they conceded more goals, and were relegated.

Martinez won a cup with a team that will never win a cup again in their lifetime. Yes he did.

Martinez is the first manager to qualify for the world cup. Difficult to qualify with Lukaku, Hazard, De Bruyne, Dembele etc in the squad 

Again, I'm not a massive Martinez fan. I'm merely playing devils advocate and asking the question.... If we have the same (if not worse defensive record) after the first five games, but regressed going forward, why was it not allowed under Martinez but OK with Koeman?

 

[Aidan]

At this stage it doesnt need a tactical switch around, it's clear we need the players in a room, Koeman outside the door and big dunc sitting them down and having a chat with them.

It's mind over matter now.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Aidan Lewis said:

At this stage it doesnt need a tactical switch around, it's clear we need the players in a room, Koeman outside the door and big dunc sitting them down and having a chat with them.

It's mind over matter now.

I think BIG Dunc is out of his depth here. Can't really understands what he brings.

Yes, he'll always be an icon at the club but tactically, I'm sure it's way over his head sometimes.

[Newty82]

1 hour ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

I was shocked at the line-up when it was announced but it's hard to know whether it would have worked or not when you consider the deadlock was broken so early. It wasn't as though Manchester United took advantage of our poor shape or broke through the lines it was a case of Antonio Valencia hitting an absolutely world-class strike into the top corner of the goal. For all we know that formation could have worked and got us a point. 

Koeman was raised on the theory of ''Total Football'' by his mentor Johan Cruyff. The latter confesses as much in his autobiography. As a result Ronald wants us to dominate possession, defend from attack and in theory dominate the game in all areas of the pitch which is why he has bought so many creative players in the summer. People have been complaining about these players all playing in the same position but in the theory of ''Total Football'' each player plays in each position, the striker should be able to drop deep into the midfield, the goalkeeper should be comfortable with the ball at his feet and if need be a defender should be expected to push up the pitch and help in attacking areas. 

The problem we face that instead of playing with the likes of Xavi, Lionel Messi or even Koeman himself we are playing with the likes of Cuco Martina and the absolute car crash that is Ashley Williams. Once we start winning games the players will grow in confidence and from growing in confidence the games will start getting better and better for us, we'll start to dominate again and play how the manager wants us to, how we were playing when we qualified for European football after a three year exile.

I think I love you.

[Btay]

Think the players need a long look at themselves.

 

Rooney had a great chance at 1-0 same with Gylfi. Then williams made that mistake at it went to shit. I thought Koeman made good subs and thought we were playing okay.

Same line up v Bournemouth with holgate for williams.

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

I was shocked at the line-up when it was announced but it's hard to know whether it would have worked or not when you consider the deadlock was broken so early. It wasn't as though Manchester United took advantage of our poor shape or broke through the lines it was a case of Antonio Valencia hitting an absolutely world-class strike into the top corner of the goal. For all we know that formation could have worked and got us a point. 

Koeman was raised on the theory of ''Total Football'' by his mentor Johan Cruyff. The latter confesses as much in his autobiography. As a result Ronald wants us to dominate possession, defend from attack and in theory dominate the game in all areas of the pitch which is why he has bought so many creative players in the summer. People have been complaining about these players all playing in the same position but in the theory of ''Total Football'' each player plays in each position, the striker should be able to drop deep into the midfield, the goalkeeper should be comfortable with the ball at his feet and if need be a defender should be expected to push up the pitch and help in attacking areas. 

The problem we face that instead of playing with the likes of Xavi, Lionel Messi or even Koeman himself we are playing with the likes of Cuco Martina and the absolute car crash that is Ashley Williams. Once we start winning games the players will grow in confidence and from growing in confidence the games will start getting better and better for us, we'll start to dominate again and play how the manager wants us to, how we were playing when we qualified for European football after a three year exile.

Great post.

In respect of the first goal, Utd did take advantage of our system because we were in a line of 9. Its a great finish but in general we were so deep and we had no depth to our game. Given the pre-match comments from Koeman and Rooney, we just seemed to come out so negatively that we basically gave them free reign. They pinned us back and we had no answer. I don't know if that was our intention, but whatever we were intending didn't happen. I then think that the goal helped us in the sense that plan A went out the window and we needed to try and wrestle back control and push up and take the risk of going being done for pace in behind.

Ironically, Martinez was brought up on the same philosophy albeit Koeman is a lot more pragmatic rather than Martinez being idealistic. When we went through our crap spell last autumn we did the same thing. Williams and co dropping too deep, the midfield had too much space to cover that they became ineffective and then the strikers were isolated. That's how we started again today, but when we pushed up, it meant Schneiderlin had much more control over the middle of the pitch and Gana and Davies could snap into challenges. This moved us up the pitch and everything started to click again because the links were there. Rooney was doing a good job of linking play, Siggy was floating around and Davies was always on the half turn creating space. Martina was also 20-30 yards further up the pitch, and it looked to me that Baines was too but just wasn't used as much. We had more passing options, we finally had width and it meant we stretched Utd and created space to play in.

Koeman is a strange one because he says all the right things but it just doesn't seem to transfer itself onto the pitch often enough.

[MC11]

3 hours ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

I was shocked at the line-up when it was announced but it's hard to know whether it would have worked or not when you consider the deadlock was broken so early. It wasn't as though Manchester United took advantage of our poor shape or broke through the lines it was a case of Antonio Valencia hitting an absolutely world-class strike into the top corner of the goal. For all we know that formation could have worked and got us a point.

Koeman was raised on the theory of ''Total Football'' by his mentor Johan Cruyff. The latter confesses as much in his autobiography. As a result Ronald wants us to dominate possession, defend from attack and in theory dominate the game in all areas of the pitch which is why he has bought so many creative players in the summer. People have been complaining about these players all playing in the same position but in the theory of ''Total Football'' each player plays in each position, the striker should be able to drop deep into the midfield, the goalkeeper should be comfortable with the ball at his feet and if need be a defender should be expected to push up the pitch and help in attacking areas. 

The problem we face that instead of playing with the likes of Xavi, Lionel Messi or even Koeman himself we are playing with the likes of Cuco Martina and the absolute car crash that is Ashley Williams. Once we start winning games the players will grow in confidence and from growing in confidence the games will start getting better and better for us, we'll start to dominate again and play how the manager wants us to, how we were playing when we qualified for European football after a three year exile.

I have to disagree with the bold mate. 4 mins in and we are literally penned in our area with 10 men behind the ball. Valencia is unmarked on the edge of area with zero pressure on him and rifles it home. it was back to the walls stuck 4 mins on. No closing down or pressure.

[Peter H]

Cant sack him for losing against Spurs, Chelsea and Man Utd. 

However. I want to see some major improvements over the next few (easier) games. If the team does not improve or if the selections and tactics dont change to better suit the squad then yes, he should get the boot. He is starting to show signs of not being able to adjust. 

The signings were good, great players but we lack balance and pace. So he needs to adjust the tactics. 

In many ways, players like DCL, Holgate and Davies have been our best players, yet they dont get to start as often as Morgan, Gana, Martina, Williams and Sandro.

Sandro needs time to settle in, Williams needs bench time, Martina needs to go to defending school.

we cant keep playing both Morgan and Gana at the same time. Its too defensive (yet we still leak goals). 

If we see these mistakes, why dont Koeman see them and change them? 

 

[Hafnia]

We ended up finding our way into the game in spite of his poor selection.  

His subs just totally ruined it for me.  Why take off Davies? He was the only player offering us penetration and energy.

He then took off Rooney who has us at least organised.

I just don't think he knows what he's doing. 

[FairWooney]

Rooney played well but I'd say he was starting to give the ball away and make rash challenges because he was dead on his feet.  Mirrallas at least provided us some pace, energy and directness.

We have 3 huge games in the premiership now and a big Europa game in the next few weeks.

All of them we should be winning.

I'd take nothing less than 7 points from the 3 premiership games and a solid win against Limassol.

Those games plus the league cup game are a chance and need to see us start to pull things together and find our feet as a team.  If he can't get them playing decent stuff by the end of that then he's really not doing something right.

[Bill]

6 hours ago, Peter H said:

Cant sack him for losing against Spurs, Chelsea and Man Utd. 

 

In many ways, players like DCL, Holgate and Davies have been our best players.

 

And Atalanta Peter 0-3, Chelsea 0-2, Spurs 0-3, Utd 0-4. 

He has them sitting so deep that they're just camped in our half, there's not a sniff of us getting a goal.

Agree with the second comment, they should start against Sunderland to see how we get on.

[nogs]

Not watched a great deal of us yet this season - planning a wedding has a way of taking over your life. I'm not totally surprised we've had such a poor start, bringing in so many new players can be a risk and the fixture list was horrible to us. You can't start calling for Koeman's head yet, but he has big, big problems. He bases his game around being defensively solid, yet we're shipping goals to individual errors like under Martinez. That suggests to me he's not instilling his players with confidence.

But by far and away our biggest problem is going forward. He called out the team last year saying they weren't creative enough - well, on evidence of games I've seen so far, that's got worse, not better. It makes me wonder - are these really his players? Or is Walsh calling the shots on signings, and Koeman just isn't good enough to adapt his tactics to what he his given? You just cannot play that shape with these players, the lack of pace and width is frightening. When you watch Man City, Man Utd, Spurs etc going forward, the way we're trying to pass through in front of teams looks fucking medieval.

Yeah we need a proper striker, someone with pace, good in the air who can finish. Good look with that in January. But we're also crying out for width, Bolassie and Coleman can't come back quick enough. And he has to stop playing Schneiderlin and Gana together in the middle, neither are good enough on the ball. Sigurd son should be in there alongside one of them, and this will probably divide opinion but I reckon we're missing Barkley too.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, nogs said:

Not watched a great deal of us yet this season - planning a wedding has a way of taking over your life. I'm not totally surprised we've had such a poor start, bringing in so many new players can be a risk and the fixture list was horrible to us. You can't start calling for Koeman's head yet, but he has big, big problems. He bases his game around being defensively solid, yet we're shipping goals to individual errors like under Martinez. That suggests to me he's not instilling his players with confidence.

But by far and away our biggest problem is going forward. He called out the team last year saying they weren't creative enough - well, on evidence of games I've seen so far, that's got worse, not better. It makes me wonder - are these really his players? Or is Walsh calling the shots on signings, and Koeman just isn't good enough to adapt his tactics to what he his given? You just cannot play that shape with these players, the lack of pace and width is frightening. When you watch Man City, Man Utd, Spurs etc going forward, the way we're trying to pass through in front of teams looks fucking medieval.

Yeah we need a proper striker, someone with pace, good in the air who can finish. Good look with that in January. But we're also crying out for width, Bolassie and Coleman can't come back quick enough. And he has to stop playing Schneiderlin and Gana together in the middle, neither are good enough on the ball. Sigurd son should be in there alongside one of them, and this will probably divide opinion but I reckon we're missing Barkley too.

Totally agree. He said he was buying 'productivity'.... I am yet to see this all season.

[London Blue]

4 hours ago, yamar said:

Totally agree. He said he was buying 'productivity'.... I am yet to see this all season.

We are 5 games into a 38 game season.

[Shukes]

There's still no productivity, wether it's 5 or 30 games.

a team with hopes of Europe should have productivity from day one. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, London Blue said:

We are 5 games into a 38 game season.

If I say black, you'll say white... You know if your completely honest with yourself that whether it be 5 or 500 games, you can see that there isn't any productivity. He won't get 38 games if it drags on, so I'll base it on 5 games.

[nogs]

And unless he changes system and/or personnel, you can't see the productivity improving. It just isn't working. Conte saw plan A wasn't working last year, changed it and won the league. What has Koeman got up his sleeve?

 

[London Blue]

4 hours ago, yamar said:

If I say black, you'll say white... You know if your completely honest with yourself that whether it be 5 or 500 games, you can see that there isn't any productivity. He won't get 38 games if it drags on, so I'll base it on 5 games.

No, I'll say what I believe to be right. 

If you judge new players after only 5 games,  than you are limiting your data set and are more likely to make false judgements. Most of the players are new to the league and take time to adjust. This was always going to be a project that takes time to see fruition. Yes some of the performances have been very poor, but we have played the 4 best teams in the league with no new striker to replace lukaku. Now we have some easier games, a chance to get some momentum and confidence. Better to judge in a couple of months.