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At what point do we say we are in a relegation dogfight?


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1 hour ago, Newty82 said:

Only 1 point behind what we had at this point last season.

Mad that.

Exactly. 

Dont get me wrong, Koeman had to go as he couldn’t handle the influx. Moshiri made matters worse by taking far too long to make an appointment (his “leaking” and talking to Jim White doesn’t help either), but we’ve always had the squad to get going again. Performances and that pantomime creates an infectious panic, but now we have some stability, we’ll continue to improve. We might well get back in the EL next year, though I expect a finish of 8-10th

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27 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I think Leicester will be hard to beat to 7th if we don't add some significant extra fire power in Jan; Mahrez seems to be back to his best. 

good point, puel seems perfect for them bet soton are made they let him go and pelligrino is a bust.  i still think we can get 7th.  arsenal look rough this year, in europa now too so that could take a toll.  

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38 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

good point, puel seems perfect for them bet soton are made they let him go and pelligrino is a bust.  i still think we can get 7th.  arsenal look rough this year, in europa now too so that could take a toll.  

Yeah, Southampton are clearly suffering San Pellegrino 

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On 12/14/2017 at 04:19, Romey 1878 said:

It'll be Cornish Steve. 100%

Already posted those words elsewhere, so you were using insider information. :)

This is a perennial question. “We’re ok with ugly wins.” I read this many times when we were losing. “I’d rather play exciting football to win than boring crap.” I’ve read that more than a few times too. What’s the right balance? For me, winning some ugly games is ok, but do we really want to be another Allardyce or Pulis team that people hate to watch week in and week out? I don’t think so. 

And I’ll repeat what I wrote elsewhere: The games the new manager has won were against teams we should always beat. The test will be against the teams above us. The derby draw was a fluke even though Liverpool are going through a bad patch. It’s too soon to have seen a game where he’s beaten a team we hope to climb above in the table.

Chelsea is a good test. A few teams below us have already beaten them. We don’t always win. If we beat them, I will give the manager some credit. 

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28 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Already posted those words elsewhere, so you were using insider information. :)

This is a perennial question. “We’re ok with ugly wins.” I read this many times when we were losing. “I’d rather play exciting football to win than boring crap.” I’ve read that more than a few times too. What’s the right balance? For me, winning some ugly games is ok, but do we really want to be another Allardyce or Pulis team that people hate to watch week in and week out? I don’t think so. 

And I’ll repeat what I wrote elsewhere: The games the new manager has won were against teams we should always beat. The test will be against the teams above us. The derby draw was a fluke even though Liverpool are going through a bad patch. It’s too soon to have seen a game where he’s beaten a team we hope to climb above in the table.

Chelsea is a good test. A few teams below us have already beaten them. We don’t always win. If we beat them, I will give the manager some credit. 

If we beat Chelsea that would surely be a fluke we never beat Chelsea and they usually score a hat full of goals against us, we need to find a manager who can give us a brand of football some where between Martinez's style and flair and Allardyce's no nonsense long game, but at the moment winning ugly is more palatable than getting stuffed week in week out .

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13 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Already posted those words elsewhere, so you were using insider information. :)

This is a perennial question. “We’re ok with ugly wins.” I read this many times when we were losing. “I’d rather play exciting football to win than boring crap.” I’ve read that more than a few times too. What’s the right balance? For me, winning some ugly games is ok, but do we really want to be another Allardyce or Pulis team that people hate to watch week in and week out? I don’t think so. 

And I’ll repeat what I wrote elsewhere: The games the new manager has won were against teams we should always beat. The test will be against the teams above us. The derby draw was a fluke even though Liverpool are going through a bad patch. It’s too soon to have seen a game where he’s beaten a team we hope to climb above in the table.

Chelsea is a good test. A few teams below us have already beaten them. We don’t always win. If we beat them, I will give the manager some credit. 

I have an inkling your whole view of Sam's short time here would be totally different if he'd been someone you wanted here.

You're following the same pattern you did with Koeman - you'll criticise anything, and everything you can jump on and any positives you acknowledge through gritted teeth.

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Quite simply we have seen this Everton side get comprehensively twatted by shit sides....   shite tactics can be apportioned to a certain percentage of this - the rest is down to the players themselves being either shit, old, or mentally weak. Yes koeman has probably retrained them etc but the players are professional footballers. 

Sam is a plaster on a big gaping wound.  At the moment he is stopping the blood flow but until we sort out the personnel permanently then I will be worried till we get to 42 points. 

I'm pleased we've got Sam. He has been a shot in the arse for the players- More so his backroom staff by the looks of things too. 

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5 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I have an inkling your whole view of Sam's short time here would be totally different if he'd been someone you wanted here.

You're following the same pattern you did with Koeman - you'll criticise anything, and everything you can jump on and any positives you acknowledge through gritted teeth.

I'm not criticizing without cause. Almost from the outset, I could see that Koeman was not a good manager and we would be in trouble. I take no joy in being right about that. From his history of managing teams, it's clear Allardyce offers one style of play: dead boring but enough to survive relegation (plenty here have criticized Moyes for playing hoofball, yet we're returning to that approach). I'd be happy to see the leopard change his spots, but he seems too stubborn a man to expect that. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

I'm not criticizing everything. If you go back, one Christmas post from last year, I think, you'll see I listed as many positives (and excuses) I could think of related to Koeman. Of course I want Everton managers to succeed, but I really don't see why everyone is expected to hold back on criticism when it is due. There's a difference between faith and blind faith.

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On 12/16/2017 at 10:41, Cornish Steve said:

I'm not criticizing without cause. Almost from the outset, I could see that Koeman was not a good manager and we would be in trouble. I take no joy in being right about that. From his history of managing teams, it's clear Allardyce offers one style of play: dead boring but enough to survive relegation (plenty here have criticized Moyes for playing hoofball, yet we're returning to that approach). I'd be happy to see the leopard change his spots, but he seems too stubborn a man to expect that. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

I'm not criticizing everything. If you go back, one Christmas post from last year, I think, you'll see I listed as many positives (and excuses) I could think of related to Koeman. Of course I want Everton managers to succeed, but I really don't see why everyone is expected to hold back on criticism when it is due. There's a difference between faith and blind faith.

Weren't you a Martinez fan?

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

We were all Martinez fans in his first season were we not? Whatever brings you to the cause doesn't matter imo, you get the calling and then there's no escape.

Spot on, that first year and some of the second were magical.  I used to watch every presser he did too, great Speaker.

9 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Call me stupid if you like I still rate him, he played the sort of football I like he had a good eye for a player.

I do too and think he will have learned and grown, id love to see him back in the prem.

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Funny we seem to go from opposites to opposites with managers...

Moyes and his overly cautious approach to Martinez overly expressive and defensive risk

Martinez and his overly positive and gushing praise to koeman and his dour non man managemnt type demeanour

Koeman and his dour demeanour with zero man management and non involved backroom staff to Sam the man manager and his very visible backroom staff. 

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26 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Funny we seem to go from opposites to opposites with managers...

Moyes and his overly cautious approach to Martinez overly expressive and defensive risk

Martinez and his overly positive and gushing praise to koeman and his dour non man managemnt type demeanour

Koeman and his dour demeanour with zero man management and non involved backroom staff to Sam the man manager and his very visible backroom staff. 

Funny - Often here in the U.S. with elections, political operatives say that voters often vote for a leader with the qualities they think the man they would be replacing are missing...

There's probably some truth to that tendency in all personnel related decision making. 

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For the sake of this topic...

10 points off the relegation zone and other than the against Soton, our last tonking, we've not been beaten by any of the teams below us.

On the flip, 6 points off 7th, 7 off 6th.

We still aren't playing our best. Still have ket players to return from injury and potentially to sign.

More to come from this lot this season.

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