Goodbye To The Gravy Guzzler

[London Blue]

2 hours ago, Formby said:

And which of those would you trust to hit the barn door? Lookman and Vlasic have shown promise but have mostly looked out of their depth. Rooney is 32 and on his last legs. DCL is just not a finisher. Lennon? Siggy? You must be joking. We have no real threat up front. Hopefully, that will be soon addressed.

Hopefully, Allardyce will become more progressive when we have a more balanced squad and more threat. If not, he can go, too. Every fan would like to see us playing like Barcelona. 

I would trust lookman, Vlasic and Lennon to stretch defenders as they have pace and can beat a defender. Vlasic and lookman have looked good and need games to progress. 

Fat Sam's teams have never played progressive football, and never will as his style is based on defensive football at all costs.

[Formby]

27 minutes ago, London Blue said:

I would trust lookman, Vlasic and Lennon to stretch defenders as they have pace and can beat a defender. Vlasic and lookman have looked good and need games to progress. 

Fat Sam's teams have never played progressive football, and never will as his style is based on defensive football at all costs.

His Bolton team was exciting to watch: he made some very astute loans and built a good team. Also, defensive football never did Simeone's Atletico any harm. I grew up in the 70's watching Italian teams employ catenaccio very successfully. I don't think there is anything wrong in using any system if it works. Personally, I'd also like to see more flair, but hey ho, we don't have the players at the moment.  

[London Blue]

2 hours ago, Formby said:

His Bolton team was exciting to watch: he made some very astute loans and built a good team. Also, defensive football never did Simeone's Atletico any harm. I grew up in the 70's watching Italian teams employ catenaccio very successfully. I don't think there is anything wrong in using any system if it works. Personally, I'd also like to see more flair, but hey ho, we don't have the players at the moment.  

That's where we have to disagree as I believe we do have flair players, there are just not used properly.  Anyway happy New year.

[Cornish Steve]

How have the three managers performed in the league this year? Here are the stats for Koeman, Unsworth, and Allardyce.

Koeman: Played 9, Win 2, Draw 2, Loss 5, For 7, Against 18, Points 8
Average per game: For 0.8, Against 2.0, Points 0.9

Unsworth: Played 5, Win 2, Draw 1, Loss 2, For 10, Against 10, Points 7
Average per game: For 2.0, Against 2.0, Points 1.4

Allardyce: Played 7, Win 3, Draw 3, Loss 1, For 8, Against 4, Points 12
Average per game: For 1.1, Against 0.4, Points 1.7

This reveals just how awful was Koeman's record. In 9 games, his teams scored fewer goals than Unsworth's in 5 games. Both managers conceded 2 goals per game. Allardyce has returned to Koeman levels when it comes to goals scored, but his defensive record is much better. This has led to an average of 0.3 more points per game than Unsworth and a whopping 0.8 more points per game than Koeman.

Although the dataset of too small to gauge accurately, how many points would each manager's teams have earned for an entire season of 38 games?

Koeman: 34 points
Unsworth: 53 points
Allardyce: 65 points

In other words, if we hadn't acted, Koeman would have got us relegated.

 

[Quinn31]

6 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

How have the three managers performed in the league this year? Here are the stats for Koeman, Unsworth, and Allardyce.

Koeman: Played 9, Win 2, Draw 2, Loss 5, For 7, Against 18, Points 8
Average per game: For 0.8, Against 2.0, Points 0.9

Unsworth: Played 5, Win 2, Draw 1, Loss 2, For 10, Against 10, Points 7
Average per game: For 2.0, Against 2.0, Points 1.4

Allardyce: Played 7, Win 3, Draw 3, Loss 1, For 8, Against 4, Points 12
Average per game: For 1.1, Against 0.4, Points 1.7

This reveals just how awful was Koeman's record. In 9 games, his teams scored fewer goals than Unsworth's in 5 games. Both managers conceded 2 goals per game. Allardyce has returned to Koeman levels when it comes to goals scored, but his defensive record is much better. This has led to an average of 0.3 more points per game than Unsworth and a whopping 0.8 more points per game than Koeman.

Although the dataset of too small to gauge accurately, how many points would each manager's teams have earned for an entire season of 38 games?

Koeman: 34 points
Unsworth: 53 points
Allardyce: 65 points

In other words, if we hadn't acted, Koeman would have got us relegated.

 

Yes, and the data is against different opponents (Koeman faced all the top six bar Liverpool), and every season I've watched us, we've had varying form throughout the season.

[markjazzbassist]

4 hours ago, Formby said:

His Bolton team was exciting to watch: he made some very astute loans and built a good team. Also, defensive football never did Simeone's Atletico any harm. I grew up in the 70's watching Italian teams employ catenaccio very successfully. I don't think there is anything wrong in using any system if it works. Personally, I'd also like to see more flair, but hey ho, we don't have the players at the moment.  

Atletico only play that way against the big sides in Spain.  When they play the other 16 teams those teams are the ones parking the bus hoping for a draw.  They play attacking and tactical football for this matches (the vast majority of their season).  Saying they park the bus is a misconception.

[Quinn31]

5 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Atletico only play that way against the big sides in Spain.  When they play the other 16 teams those teams are the ones parking the bus hoping for a draw.  They play attacking and tactical football for this matches (the vast majority of their season).  Saying they park the bus is a misconception.

Parking the bus and focusing on defense first/counter attacking are completely different - see: Liverpool Football Club

[nogs]

17 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

Probably because aside from Lennon none of our wide players offer any protection to the full backs , both Koeman and Unsworth tried it and the result was we got battered every week

 

 

Raheem Sterling never offered anything defensively then Guardiola got hold of him. Vlasic certainly has shown he has the work rate to cover, I agree Lookman would take more work. But I'd rather be coaching that into players than losing pace and natural width as happens with playing Sigurdsson  in a front 3.

[nogs]

15 hours ago, c1982 said:

I would like N’Zonzi but if we didn’t strengthen in midfield, I wouldn’t be too worried as believe the midfielders would look better with a quality left back and striker anyway. There’s a lack of options currently when in possession and the ball comes back at us too easily as a result of too many aimless balls to an overworked ‘prospect’ - a more balanced team with out balls on each flank and ahead will hopefully show the quality that we know we have already in central midfield.

Apart from Rooney when he plays there I honestly do not see much quality in our midfield. Davies has potential but he's 19 and having a tough time of it this season. Gana is a destroyer and nothing more. Do you seriously see him or Schneiderlin suddenly learning how to use the football productively just because we get a new left back? I don't. 

[nogs]

15 hours ago, Paddock said:

This is absolutely bang on for me- we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place because we are playing with a kid at right back and a poor player playing out of position at left back- when we play our wide players we get dry bummed down both flanks as there is zero protection for 2 vunerable full backs.

Which is ridiculous when you play two defensive CMs every game because that is meant to be part of their job. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Raheem Sterling never offered anything defensively then Guardiola got hold of him. Vlasic certainly has shown he has the work rate to cover, I agree Lookman would take more work. But I'd rather be coaching that into players than losing pace and natural width as happens with playing Sigurdsson  in a front 3.

Which is fine if you don’t mind getting twatted by the likes of Southampton every week and staring relegation in the face

 

 

 

[Paddock]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

Which is ridiculous when you play two defensive CMs every game because that is meant to be part of their job. 

When Baines was playing we were just as bad- he’s lost his legs- we are crying out for a Bertrand type player and Coleman before he broke his leg. Full backs with pace , energy and who can cross a ball.

mcCarthy does a good job of covering the right full back Gana is far too much of a ball chaser to ever be disciplined enough. We need 2 new good full backs desperately imo. I also don’t think Schneiderlin is the right type of player for us right now- McCarthy wont stay fit neither will Besic and Davies is another ill disciplined ball chaser.

The whole squad needs ripples ng apart and putting back together. 

[Formby]

7 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Atletico only play that way against the big sides in Spain.  When they play the other 16 teams those teams are the ones parking the bus hoping for a draw.  They play attacking and tactical football for this matches (the vast majority of their season).  Saying they park the bus is a misconception.

Saying I said they park the bus is a misconception. See Q31's post.

[Sev]

16 hours ago, Formby said:

And which of those would you trust to hit the barn door? Lookman and Vlasic have shown promise but have mostly looked out of their depth. Rooney is 32 and on his last legs. DCL is just not a finisher. Lennon? Siggy? You must be joking. We have no real threat up front. Hopefully, that will be soon addressed.

Hopefully, Allardyce will become more progressive when we have a more balanced squad and more threat. If not, he can go, too. Every fan would like to see us playing like Barcelona. 

Many games this season have been played with two defensive midfileders and basically no threat on the right and left wings. That means not much support for the attacking player(s). And then you even had players playing out of position which doesn't make things easier.

Personally I see a lot of quality and potential in the current squad if being used right; tactically and mentally. Even though the situation at this point may look a tad bleak to some, we should think in long terms and use these very talented young players we have and not just buy players to fill up positions we already cover quite nicely.

And really... not every fan would like to see us play like Barca. Personally I find this style of football quite boring.

[nogs]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Which is fine if you don’t mind getting twatted by the likes of Southampton every week and staring relegation in the face

 

 

 

So you'd rather we didn't play with width and pace? 

[nogs]

1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

So if the 2 defensive midfielders are covering full back positions then who is in midfield?

You can only attack down one flank at once. And 'cover' means filling in when the full back is caught upfield when the opposition breaks, not playing there the whole time. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

So you'd rather we didn't play with width and pace? 

When did I say that?

At the moment we have a young lad still finding his feet at this level playing right back and Coco , who will never be good enough for this level , playing left back. So I’m saying the need protection

[nogs]

11 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

When did I say that?

At the moment we have a young lad still finding his feet at this level playing right back and Coco , who will never be good enough for this level , playing left back. So I’m saying the need protection

 

I'm not sure how that relates to what I posted. I said nothing about not protecting the full backs. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I'm not sure how that relates to what I posted. I said nothing about not protecting the full backs. 

I never said you did!

[nogs]

Just now, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I never said you did!



 

That's OK then! 

[Palfy]

I think when Lennon has played we have looked a lot more solid on the right and Kenny looks much better due to Lennon covering when he gets forward.

On the left is a different matter and not just because Cuco isn'tt a left back, it's more that Cuco seems to get exposed when he tries to get forward mainly because Gylfi isn'tt covering or is slow to react to the danger, Allardyce should be encouraging Cuco to get forward because he can usually get a good cross in, but he needs to make sure that he is getting cover.

[London Blue]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I never said you did!

 

1 hour ago, nogs said:

That's OK then! 

Well I'm glad we got that cleared up at least.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, London Blue said:

Well I'm glad we got that cleared up at least.

I was hoping for fisticuffs.

[Aidan]

4 shots on target in 4 games so far. 

Despicable.

[Newty82]

17 minutes ago, Aidan Lewis said:

4 shots on target in 4 games so far. 

Despicable.

I was just wondering this. Worrying.

More worrying is how many chances other teams ate creating against us.

We had some momentum when we stuck with the same 11 in the first set of games under Sam. Lost it now by going back to continuous changes.

[Paddock]

The football is attrocious it really is and I don’t think a striker will change it.

 

Allerdyce best pull his finger out his arsse- I can put up with shite if we’re winning but not if we’re picking 2 points from 12 up.

[Hafnia]

Allardyce was pissed with the lack of tackling and closing down.

Hard man Ashley Williams allowed 2 players to bend a shot round him.... fucking garbage.  Should stick a Wales shirt on him.... wouldn't stand off then would he. Fuckin coward. 

[Paddock]

Just now, hafnia said:

Allardyce was pissed with the lack of tackling and closing down.

Hard man Ashley Williams allowed 2 players to bend a shot round him.... fucking garbage.  Should stick a Wales shirt on him.... wouldn't stand off then would he. Fuckin coward. 

What about Keane letting Lingarrd skip past him like he was a fucking statue? Time and time again Keane was caught ball watching- he’s fucking shocking- at least Williams got stuck in- Keanes a shit bag and his body language is shocking.

 

I fucking hate supporting Everton sometimes- the deal for the Turkish lad will drag on all window- I absolutely guarantee it- Paul Joyce has said they’re now quibbling over the price. We’re a joke of a club.

[Romey 1878]

I’m not enjoying being reminded why I didn’t want this man for our manager. 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, hafnia said:

Allardyce was pissed with the lack of tackling and closing down.

Hard man Ashley Williams allowed 2 players to bend a shot round him.... fucking garbage.  Should stick a Wales shirt on him.... wouldn't stand off then would he. Fuckin coward. 

What? He has gone to close down a player that wasn't his responsibility in the first place and yet he gets the blame for the opposition player being able to curl a shot around him? I don't get that at all. 

As Pad says Keane got done 1 v 1 at least twice and he failed to pick up Martial in the first half which luckily Martial miscontrolled. Overall I thought Keane was solid in the game but he just gets done too often.