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Liverpool Derby (Goodison) Saturday April 7th

markjazzbassist

By markjazzbassist
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Romey 1878
Romey 1878

If we had a manager with some nous we'd tell our left winger to just run at Alexander-Arnold in this game because he is fucking awful defensively. As it is, we'll sit back and hope to absorb what

Romey 1878
Romey 1878

Me too. I fancy us to get squashed like a bug. 

Sir McGiven
Sir McGiven

First of all,   I don't think there will be something unexpected from their side. They will be on the pitch with usual line-up and tactic, 4-3-3. (Instead injuries and bans)   People w

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Bailey Grand Master

Bailey

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

He’s playing tonight, so why would that be?

I may have imagined it but I thought he had got injured in the last game and then with the post above mentioning Lovren and Klavan I presumed he meant together (albeit now I suppose he could mean 1 alongside VVD) because VVD was out. 

I probably just made it all up :)

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Aidan Experienced

Aidan

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Just now, markjazzbassist said:

i read today that the U21 manager said he is going to be shorthanded because Klopp might play a bunch of youngsters in the derby.  if we lose to some bench warmers and kids i will be livid.  also this match is on at 7:30am, gonna be brutal.

That perfectly sets you up for your whole day to be ruined, not just half of it!

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MikeO Grand Master

MikeO

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44 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

lucky i've asked my dad to assist in installing some shelves in my son's room after the match.  the job should take my mind off it i'm hoping.

Accidentally drilling through a water pipe (or maybe a finger) would take your mind off it properly....and it'd probably be more fun:unsure:.

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Sir McGiven Contributor

Sir McGiven

Posted
Posted
First of all,
 
I don't think there will be something unexpected from their side. They will be on the pitch with usual line-up and tactic, 4-3-3. (Instead injuries and bans)
 
People who are interested in analyzing all aspects of a game must know already, Klopp's tactical approach named as "Gegenpress" and it is described as (i quote here for a better explanation than I could do);
 
Quote

 

The Gegenpress operates on the basic assumption that a team that has just lost possession (especially while attempting to counter) is in its most vulnerable state. The more rapidly you exploit that vulnerability, the more likely you are to score.

 

 

 

 

Simple but effective.
 
If I were an opponent manager against Liverpool, the only solution I could come up with would have been "Possession play" to hold up the ball more when they start their pressure after losing the ball but as their two games against City showed us that is not working. I mean, possession football god Pep with winger-central midfielders like De Bruyne and Silva in his team... It didn't work out.
 
As an example, while Bayern Munich was dominating European football, it was Jupp's tactical approach as well with some little differences than how Klopp operating it. Jupp's was sending one man close down the man with a ball and one man to each possible recipients. Klopp's approach orders the closest players to close down the man with the ball and risking and leaving potential recipients to be free by assuming the man with the ball cannot send an accurate pass under the pressure. In other explanation, they are surrounding the ball holding man like a soldier who is back in town after a long-term duty abroad. Jags is on form lately but neither he nor Keane are good passers. Only full-backs Baines and Coleman can possibly get out of that pressure.
 
Check Salah's 3rd-minute goal against the Spurs. Karius swings the ball to Henderson where Eriksen was far away to make a move, Henderson sends the ball forward with a header to Mane. A misunderstanding between Sanches and Trippier lets Mane act as he wants and leaves an empty line to run for Firmino, totally unmarked. Mane sends the ball towards Firmino where Sanches and Trippier were able to touch the ball to evade a dangerous position and see the rest on replay... A free ball goes towards Dier who has been chased by Mane and possibly noticed it and tried to get rid of the ball asap with a back pass. An inaccurate pass, Salah dives in for the loose ball, gets it and scores an early goal.
 
The very first thing that should be Sam's warning to the team in the dressing room, before the match. "Stay awake, don't panic, try to use the ball efficiently. Always think one step further than what position you are in at the moment". Something like that, I don't know, never been a good motivator.
 
If Sam decides to keep midfield narrow when Blues on the attack, it will be a huge mistake. It'll give Liverpool the chance easily cover the ball and potential recipients at a less distance. A possible scenario: the player cannot pass the ball forward, forced for a back pass which is a chance to do a simple mistake where pacers like Salah, Mane or Firmino interrupts the pass and create a chance against.
 
Pickford will be the key. As Liverpool's forwards able to cover up 4 defenders and the goalkeeper with only 3 men, he will be forced to play long balls. Accuracy there will be important. Side balls to Coleman to Baines will be the traps as its what Liverpool wants to force the opponent to the side around touch-line. Tottenham has been there, City has been there... Their solution was to send defenders up high.
 
Let's say Everton is going good and is able to move the ball from defense to midfield. In that case, Klopp will order his midfielders to foul to slow down Everton's tempo. In Turkey, we call it "Yugoslavian foul" and this reference comes from basketball where they were popular with their dirty fouls to cut off a dangerous position intentionally.
 
Everton's problem against City was keeping possession, it will not be that bad against Liverpool but that's how they play and what they want, so the statistics can be misleading tomorrow. I know Sam is a geek when it comes to the in-game statistics but it won't help him tomorrow. Tottenham's possession was %70 or something like that in the second half of the game against Liverpool.
 
Pep loves to play with midfielders who are also capable to play on wings to diversify his attacking movements and crush opponent's defensive order. Klopp is more strict with the positioning of his players but they are good at gathering second balls and support the attack with central midfielders in a straight attacking line. We'll see 5 men trying to lance their lines on the attack. (Salah - Mane - Firmino + 2 midfielders)
 
But they have another important weakness, right alongside their vulnerable defense... They are getting tired in every match and being inconsistent in the second halves.
 
I would normally say (based on my memory of the teams who won against Jupp's Bayern, Pep's Dortmund, Bielsa's Bilbao and Pep's Barça) 4-2-3-1 tactic with 2 deep-lying playmakers or mirror 4-3-3 with man-to-man marking on defense and with a target midfielder who is tall (can win headers) and can hold up the ball with his back to the goal (Viera, Fellaini, Matic etc.) on the attacks are the kryptonite. 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 deep-lying playmakers is not the case as Everton can't even be considered have one of them. The second one is not an option as well, obviously. There is also a third one which is named as Park the Bus, a.k.a party pooper.
 
My humble wish is to see an Everton team hit back Liverpool tomorrow with their own defensive tactic, slowing down the tempo with some basic fouls and resist their attacks with some significant defensive positioning in the first half. I do predict that they will be down in the second half again and as their defense is vulnerable, Everton will get its chances to score.
 
As I see in the posts, some of you are not feeling it for tomorrow and being pessimistic. On the other hand, Everton looks like the weaker side on paper but it is a derby game, there will be no underdog, there will be no statistics matters, there Blues will need to show how brave they can be and passionate more than ever. 
 
What I would love to see;
 
                       Pickford
Coleman -- Jags -- Keane -- Baines
                          Gana
                Rooney -- Davies
Walcott                                  Vlasic/Bolasie
                        Niasse
 
Cenk for Niasse around 55th - 60th minutes as my humble prediction is on they will be tired in the second half, Niasse can tire them a little bit more in the first half and Cenk can find more chances against a vulnerable and tired Liverpool defense.
 
I wish good luck to Blues in the derby game.
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chicagoblue Mentor

chicagoblue

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

i read today that the U21 manager said he is going to be shorthanded because Klopp might play a bunch of youngsters in the derby.  if we lose to some bench warmers and kids i will be livid.  also this match is on at 7:30am, gonna be brutal.

 

I wish. I'm happy for a 7am start. Tomorrow is 430 for me. Sadly don't think I'll be getting up for that (in 4 hours...)

If we play or cards right we could ruffle a few feathers. Need to get about them and make them feel it. Coyb

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johnh Enthusiast

johnh

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Posted

According to Telegraph Sport today, Allardyce intends to play a defensive game, hoping to hit them on the break. He is quoted as saying his players 'won't freeze' (like they did against City) but plans to adopt a more defensive mindset against Liverpool.  He also intends to play Rooney in a 'deeper role' in midfield.  

5 - 0 to Liverpool I reckon.

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Bailey Grand Master

Bailey

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Sir McGiven said:
First of all,
 
I don't think there will be something unexpected from their side. They will be on the pitch with usual line-up and tactic, 4-3-3. (Instead injuries and bans)
 
People who are interested in analyzing all aspects of a game must know already, Klopp's tactical approach named as "Gegenpress" and it is described as (i quote here for a better explanation than I could do);
 

 

Simple but effective.
 
If I were an opponent manager against Liverpool, the only solution I could come up with would have been "Possession play" to hold up the ball more when they start their pressure after losing the ball but as their two games against City showed us that is not working. I mean, possession football god Pep with winger-central midfielders like De Bruyne and Silva in his team... It didn't work out.
 
As an example, while Bayern Munich was dominating European football, it was Jupp's tactical approach as well with some little differences than how Klopp operating it. Jupp's was sending one man close down the man with a ball and one man to each possible recipients. Klopp's approach orders the closest players to close down the man with the ball and risking and leaving potential recipients to be free by assuming the man with the ball cannot send an accurate pass under the pressure. In other explanation, they are surrounding the ball holding man like a soldier who is back in town after a long-term duty abroad. Jags is on form lately but neither he nor Keane are good passers. Only full-backs Baines and Coleman can possibly get out of that pressure.
 
Check Salah's 3rd-minute goal against the Spurs. Karius swings the ball to Henderson where Eriksen was far away to make a move, Henderson sends the ball forward with a header to Mane. A misunderstanding between Sanches and Trippier lets Mane act as he wants and leaves an empty line to run for Firmino, totally unmarked. Mane sends the ball towards Firmino where Sanches and Trippier were able to touch the ball to evade a dangerous position and see the rest on replay... A free ball goes towards Dier who has been chased by Mane and possibly noticed it and tried to get rid of the ball asap with a back pass. An inaccurate pass, Salah dives in for the loose ball, gets it and scores an early goal.
 
The very first thing that should be Sam's warning to the team in the dressing room, before the match. "Stay awake, don't panic, try to use the ball efficiently. Always think one step further than what position you are in at the moment". Something like that, I don't know, never been a good motivator.
 
If Sam decides to keep midfield narrow when Blues on the attack, it will be a huge mistake. It'll give Liverpool the chance easily cover the ball and potential recipients at a less distance. A possible scenario: the player cannot pass the ball forward, forced for a back pass which is a chance to do a simple mistake where pacers like Salah, Mane or Firmino interrupts the pass and create a chance against.
 
Pickford will be the key. As Liverpool's forwards able to cover up 4 defenders and the goalkeeper with only 3 men, he will be forced to play long balls. Accuracy there will be important. Side balls to Coleman to Baines will be the traps as its what Liverpool wants to force the opponent to the side around touch-line. Tottenham has been there, City has been there... Their solution was to send defenders up high.
 
Let's say Everton is going good and is able to move the ball from defense to midfield. In that case, Klopp will order his midfielders to foul to slow down Everton's tempo. In Turkey, we call it "Yugoslavian foul" and this reference comes from basketball where they were popular with their dirty fouls to cut off a dangerous position intentionally.
 
Everton's problem against City was keeping possession, it will not be that bad against Liverpool but that's how they play and what they want, so the statistics can be misleading tomorrow. I know Sam is a geek when it comes to the in-game statistics but it won't help him tomorrow. Tottenham's possession was %70 or something like that in the second half of the game against Liverpool.
 
Pep loves to play with midfielders who are also capable to play on wings to diversify his attacking movements and crush opponent's defensive order. Klopp is more strict with the positioning of his players but they are good at gathering second balls and support the attack with central midfielders in a straight attacking line. We'll see 5 men trying to lance their lines on the attack. (Salah - Mane - Firmino + 2 midfielders)
 
But they have another important weakness, right alongside their vulnerable defense... They are getting tired in every match and being inconsistent in the second halves.
 
I would normally say (based on my memory of the teams who won against Jupp's Bayern, Pep's Dortmund, Bielsa's Bilbao and Pep's Barça) 4-2-3-1 tactic with 2 deep-lying playmakers or mirror 4-3-3 with man-to-man marking on defense and with a target midfielder who is tall (can win headers) and can hold up the ball with his back to the goal (Viera, Fellaini, Matic etc.) on the attacks are the kryptonite. 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 deep-lying playmakers is not the case as Everton can't even be considered have one of them. The second one is not an option as well, obviously. There is also a third one which is named as Park the Bus, a.k.a party pooper.
 
My humble wish is to see an Everton team hit back Liverpool tomorrow with their own defensive tactic, slowing down the tempo with some basic fouls and resist their attacks with some significant defensive positioning in the first half. I do predict that they will be down in the second half again and as their defense is vulnerable, Everton will get its chances to score.
 
As I see in the posts, some of you are not feeling it for tomorrow and being pessimistic. On the other hand, Everton looks like the weaker side on paper but it is a derby game, there will be no underdog, there will be no statistics matters, there Blues will need to show how brave they can be and passionate more than ever. 
 
What I would love to see;
 
                       Pickford
Coleman -- Jags -- Keane -- Baines
                          Gana
                Rooney -- Davies
Walcott                                  Vlasic/Bolasie
                        Niasse
 
Cenk for Niasse around 55th - 60th minutes as my humble prediction is on they will be tired in the second half, Niasse can tire them a little bit more in the first half and Cenk can find more chances against a vulnerable and tired Liverpool defense.
 
I wish good luck to Blues in the derby game.

Interesting read. I had looked at the PL games they have struggled in but haven't paid attention that much to Klopp in his time at Dortmund.

Looking at the teams that they have struggled against, the main theme has been that they have played relatively narrow. Against Utd, Rashford was the only midfielder wider than the centre circle, Palace only really had Zaha in his usual wide position with Townsend tucking in, no-one from Spurs in either game played wide in the midfield (albeit they played with 5 at the back in the first game) and its only really Burnley who have kept their usual shape which was a massive surprise to me. I think this is why Pep changed his approach midweek and "bottled it" as instead of playing with Sterling wide he played Gundogan and this was the monstrosity it created (from a purist City/Pep point of view).

image.png.ea8dc65b1f08b3b5be1cdf54bb7bcd82.png

It wasnt like the tactic didnt work for City, they all individually had a shocker and they just couldnt make things stick. I think they had a guilt edged chance at 1-0 and then another goal wrongly disallowed at 3-0 which freed Sane, much the same way Palace were using Zaha. My own personal issue with a side like this is there is no balance and ultimately I think they will tell over 90 minutes and if you set up to attack down one side, you will also ultimately be attacked down that side which is what Liverpool did to City with Ox pushing right up between Sane and Laporte.

I think City could have afforded to play they usual game against Liverpool and gone toe to toe, however we cant and adopting a shape like this, or like Spurs is the way to go in my opinion. When I hear Gary Neville on commentary against Liverpool he always talks about the confidence to play, especially through the middle of the park, because the reality is once you have beat the press you are up against a shaky exposed defence. Its easier to say than do, because Klopp's whole game plan is based on turning the ball over early and as you say, setting those traps to stop a team playing through them so its a real game of cat and mouse but we dont have the players to play long ball, hold it up and bring others into the game. We dont have the midfield to put pressure onto Liverpool's. We dont really have the defence to deal with the pace of Liverpool either.

All of this is relatively pointless as i expect to see a back 9 with 1 striker positioned in our half 90% of the game.

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