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Stadium - All ifs, buts and maybes...

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Arsenal's line at Highbury for season tickets was nowhere like it is now. Get the big picture and get a dose reality. Everton and Arsenal were similar sized clubs in most respects.

And obviously London and Liverpool are comparable in size.

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John, I'll put it in simple terms for you, as you seem incapable of grasping what I said:

 

New stadium = good

Rail serving a new stadium = good

New stadium with infrastructure that allows fans to get in and out easily = great

New stadium without rail = not the end of the world, especially in a city that doesn't have a culture of public transportation

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Guest John Burns

And obviously London and Liverpool are comparable in size.

This is the sort on inane nonsense you get on these footy forums. The comparison is Arsenal and Everton, he then thinks London v Liverpool is applicable. He does, yes he does. :rofl:

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Good post. I stayed away in many 1980s games. I saw a Newcastle fan walking along off Walton Lane attacked with a Stanley knife. I never went to a game for two years after. I have also been at a 72,000 gate at Goodison Park.

 

That 72,000 must have been a derby game against Liverpool? I have been at a gate of over 78,000 at Goodison (which can't be beat because its the ground record! (1948/49). I think both Everton and Liverpool missed a trick in not agreeing to a shared ground. This could have been an 80,000 capacity ground which could also have hosted internationals and maybe cup-finals.

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You have not got a clue.

 

I've not got a clue about how accessible Goodison Park is? I drive 40 miles every other week to go there and watch them play. I drive and park just off Queens drive, I walk for ten minutes to my seat in Gwladys Street. After the match i'll walk ten minutes back, I get in the car and drive away. I hit a bit of traffic on the East Lancs before I get to the motorway.

 

Do not tell me I don't have a clue.

 

You've just gone from boring to patronising, to insulting in the space of one page.

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Guest John Burns

John, I'll put it in simple terms for you, as you seem incapable of grasping what I said:

 

New stadium = good

Rail serving a new stadium = good

New stadium with infrastructure that allows fans to get in and out easily = great

New stadium without rail = not the end of the world, especially in a city that doesn't have a culture of public transportation

What planet are you on? :rofl: You have to be earth to have a clue. I have written that Merseyrail, is the largest and most used urban metro rail network in the UK outside London. One third is is awaiting tracks. Have you heard of it? If you going to do something do it right.

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I've not got a clue about how accessible Goodison Park is? I drive 40 miles every other week to go there and watch them play. I drive and park just off Queens drive, I walk for ten minutes to my seat in Gwladys Street. After the match i'll walk ten minutes back, I get in the car and drive away. I hit a bit of traffic on the East Lancs before I get to the motorway.

 

Do not tell me I don't have a clue.

You can't see past the end of your nose. I go by car so what good are trains. duh! See the big picture? Nah! :rofl:

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This is the sort on inane nonsense you get on these footy forums. The comparison is Arsenal and Everton, he then thinks London v Liverpool is applicable. He does, yes he does. :rofl:

And he thinks catchement area has no bearing so a club in village of 100 could build a 100,000 seatet stadium because these things don't matter.

 

Plus of course while the main competitor for fans for Arsenal is Spurs and lately Chelsea, we have dat other lot and the two Manchester clubs.

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By the way, EFC won the FA Cup 20 years ago. Arsenal and Liverpool have proven that it is not about winning it is about competing at the top. Arsenal's and Liverpool's silver count was sparse but they were packed to the rafters. You don't get the business side at all.

 

Which is why I pointed out the we had won one trophy in thirty years (OK, so it's actually twenty-nine).

 

Are you always this patronising?

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Which is why I pointed out the we had won one trophy in thirty years (OK, so it's actually twenty-nine).

 

Are you always this patronising?

 

Yes he is. Every time he comes on.

 

An obsessed fool.

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Guest John Burns

 

That 72,000 must have been a derby game against Liverpool? I have been at a gate of over 78,000 at Goodison (which can't be beat because its the ground record! (1948/49). I think both Everton and Liverpool missed a trick in not agreeing to a shared ground. This could have been an 80,000 capacity ground which could also have hosted internationals and maybe cup-finals.

I was in the crowd but hardly saw a thing. We were all packed in like sardines and the rake of the terraces a GP was shallow. I never saw one of the 4 goal scored. But I was only very small. I was an awful experience.

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Yes he is. Every time he comes on.

 

An obsessed fool.

You are very bright. That is obvious. And you an insulting bastard!

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Guest John Burns

 

Which is why I pointed out the we had won one trophy in thirty years (OK, so it's actually twenty-nine).

 

Are you always this patronising?

Did you get this:

"Arsenal and Liverpool have proven that it is not about winning it is about competing at the top. Arsenal's and Liverpool's silver count was sparse but they were packed to the rafters. You don't get the business side at all."

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You can't see past the end of your nose. I go by car so what good are trains. duh! See the big picture? Nah! :rofl:

 

I see the big picture, but you say GP isn't accessible, I find no problem with accessibility at all.

 

tumblr_m9ep92k9qK1qasxjlo1_400.gif

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Guest John Burns

And he thinks catchement area has no bearing so a club in village of 100 could build a 100,000 seatet stadium because these things don't matter.

That's even worse.

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Guest John Burns

 

I see the big picture, but you say GP isn't accessible, I find no problem with accessibility at all.

You have NO idea whatsoever. You can only see the world from your own experiences. I doubt you believe Australasia exists because you haven't been to see. Everton are to build a new large stadium in another location.

What do you do for living?

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well to be honest ill need to start saving now for a trip to Goodison before it's retired. Maybe I can do a week where we have 2 matches and catch both like a Cup match and league match. either way time to find the piggy bank to start stashing some extra cash.

Good idea. Worth the trip.

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You have NO idea whatsoever. You can only see the world from your own experiences. I doubt you believe Australasia exists because you haven't been to see. Everton are to build a new large stadium in another location.

What do you do for living?

 

How can I possibly have no idea about the accessibility of Goodison Park? I access it without any problems. I've been to many grounds, home and away, and I've had many worse experiences accessing more modern stadiums around the world. Some by train, some by car.

 

So, maybe you mean Goodison park has poor accessibility by train, that would be true, but by car, Goodison is very accessible. This isn't me only seeing it through my own experiences, this is you seeing it only from your own point of view because its all you care about.

 

I'll ask this again, what can we do to help and what are you doing to make it happen?

 

Also, I have been to Austrilasia, I've been to many places. I've not been to South America or Russia, but most other continents I have.

 

I work in transport by the way.

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Did you get this:

"Arsenal and Liverpool have proven that it is not about winning it is about competing at the top. Arsenal's and Liverpool's silver count was sparse but they were packed to the rafters. You don't get the business side at all."

How many trophies have those two won since we last won one?

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Actually, John's got a point, we ARE missing the bigger picture.

 

Trains are a thing of the past, old hat, we should be looking to the future...behold:

 

Airport_zpsgxs9eq8i.png

 

"Accurate artist's impression"

 

It will just work. Anyone who doesn't see it, is blind.

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Did you get this:

"Arsenal and Liverpool have proven that it is not about winning it is about competing at the top. Arsenal's and Liverpool's silver count was sparse but they were packed to the rafters. You don't get the business side at all."

 

Yes but I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the other part of the post. You don't get the reading side at all...oh never mind. You carry on, I'm taking the next train out of here.

 

article-0-07C74B5F000005DC-78_468x304.jp

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Seriously, if someone wants to come on and discuss Everton and all that good stuff then great.

 

I can't be doing with sanctimonious arse holes who somehow have football fans as being thick. The "what do you do for a living" question pissed me off.

 

Sorry John, you are coming across as a lecturer who knows plenty about a topic but you aren't positioning what it is that you are about or do. For that reason these discussions just derail.... see what I did there.

 

Time to get the discussion back on track, oops.

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How can I possibly have no idea about the accessibility of Goodison Park?

The points are:

  • A new stadium
  • In a new location
  • The transport access.

It not difficult. You are not from Liverpool. Work in transport? A bus driver?

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Guest John Burns

Seriously, if someone wants to come on and discuss Everton and all that good stuff then great.

 

I can't be doing with sanctimonious arse holes who somehow have football fans as being thick. The "what do you do for a living" question pissed me off.

 

Sorry John, you are coming across as a lecturer who knows plenty about a topic but you aren't positioning what it is that you are about or do. For that reason these discussions just derail.... see what I did there.

 

Time to get the discussion back on track, oops.

Some of these guys are just pure idiots. Look the posts and the silly pictures. :rofl: They haven't clue with poor comprehension and constantly insult. I know plenty about the topic OK, as you noted. As I said I don't come on these forums much because they are populated by too many idiots. Don't take my word for it, look at the posts. Childish inane drivel in many of them. They odd one stands out as being decent and to the point.

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Actually, John's got a point, we ARE missing the bigger picture.

 

Trains are a thing of the past, old hat, we should be looking to the future...behold:

 

Airport_zpsgxs9eq8i.png

 

"Accurate artist's impression"

 

It will just work. Anyone who doesn't see it, is blind.

My God! Look at at picture. Wow. Look at all those slums around that wooden ground. They missed the 1950s clearances for sure.

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Some of these guys are just pure idiots. Look the posts and the silly pictures. :rofl: They haven't clue with poor comprehension and constantly mock, sneer and insult. I know plenty about the topic OK, as you noted. As I said I don't come on these forums much because they are populated by too many idiots. Don't take my word for it, look at the posts. Childish inane drivel in many of them. They odd one stands out as being decent and to the point.

 

 

John, but that is what a website like this is all about. The common denominator is that we all love and support Everton. We all have our agreements and disagreements and some posters can articulate their posts better than others but it is an opportunity for supporters to express their opinion on all matters Everton. Those opinions should be respected even if we don't agree with them and grammar/spelling mistakes, as long as they don't obscure the point being made, should be tolerated. (As also should 'typos' like the 'They' in your last sentence which should be 'The') :D

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Everton are a sleeping giant for sure. They get 37,000 in a tip of ground right now. Yes, I feel your frustration. Have a state-of-the-art stadium with mass/rapid transit rail to the door, which is accessible from all over the Liverpool City Region and beyond, and linked to HS2 and HS3 when they come and they will turn up for sure. 70,000 is what the club needs. The stadium will be filled most times if not all the time. The precedence is Arsenal.

 

My favourite stadium is stadium MK. I occasionally have taken two young children there. The facilities are superb, the stadium is superb, a world away from scruffy Goodison Park, great atmosphere despite being half full (fanbase needs building up) and easy to get to in that region (by car, but the West Coast Main Line is adjacent if a station is needed). I see lots of families there and they have a family section. When I go there after being to GP it is like going from black & white into technicolour. Magnify that to 70,000 with mass transit rail access and we have a new successful EFC stadium.

 

stadium_mk___mk_dons_by_2lazy2login.jpg

I live in Milton Keynes and regularly go to their games. The stadium was paid for on the whole by local businesses (Asda, IKEA) with the shrewd work from the rather eccentric Pete Winkleman. The top tier was finished by off by the new complex incl M&S. It's really a lovely stadium but never filled and atmosphere isn't great. There isn't a bad seat anywhere (no GP restricted views). For Everton though I'd like something unique though.

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John, but that is what a website like this is all about. The common denominator is that we all love and support Everton. We all have our agreements and disagreements and some posters can articulate their posts better than others but it is an opportunity for supporters to express their opinion on all matters Everton. Those opinions should be respected even if we don't agree with them and grammar/spelling mistakes, as long as they don't obscure the point being made, should be tolerated. (As also should 'typos' like the 'They' in your last sentence which should be 'The') :D

Totally agree with your post johnh but I also think John comes on here in good faith and I agree with him on some things regarding the transport side and attendances.

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Thís is what Wikipedia says about transport to MK stadium:

 

 

The nearest railway stations are Bletchley and Fenny Stratford. Both of these are about 1.3 miles (2.1 km) away from the Stadium. Milton Keynes Central station, about 2.6 miles (4.2 km) away, has more intercity services. Milton Keynes Central and Bletchley are on the (busy) West Coast Main Lineto London, the West Midlands and the North-West; Fenny Stratford is on the (quiet) Marston Vale Line to Bedford. There are shuttle bus connections from the Central and Bletchley stations. Car parking beside the stadium is limited and expensive: on some occasions, the National Bowl is used for overflow parking.

So this would be good enough?

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Totally agree with your post johnh but I also think John comes on here in good faith and I agree with him on some things regarding the transport side and attendances.

 

Patto, I have no doubt that he comes on here in good faith and makes valid points on transport issues etc., My comments specifically related to his post that I quoted which I considered to be out of order.

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You have not got a clue.

Don't you think that is a little arrogant?

 

I have been driving to the game all my adult life and I have never once had a problem finding somewhere to park and I never have to pay for it

 

So if you add the vast amount car parks where you have to pay a fee then I really don't see how you can say parking is such an issue

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I have no doubt creating a better match day experience courtesy of a shiny new stadium would attract more people but I just can't see us nearly doubling our average crowd

 

Even if you take into account all the glory hunters we would inevitably attract should we suddenly start winning trophies again 70000 would be a tall ask

You only have to look at Man City in their Emptyhad Stadium

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Thís is what Wikipedia says about transport to MK stadium:

So this would be good enough?

As a life long Everton fan and living in MK you can't compare the two. Rail links for MK stadium are pretty good as on London -Birmingham main line but MK aren't a well supported club. The original post was more about the stadium and surrounding area. Plus MK council bend over backwards to support the club and promote sport on Milton Keynes.

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Patto, I have no doubt that he comes on here in good faith and makes valid points on transport issues etc., My comments specifically related to his post that I quoted which I considered to be out of order.

yes that post was I think it's frustration.

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yes that post was I think it's frustration.

 

And he's never caused any frustration to anyone else on here has he?

 

He's a patronising single-issue poster who insults everyone who takes issue with him and totally ignores any well reasoned questions or alternative viewpoints. Stock answer, "You don't get it....".

 

Guess what John? We do get. We just don't agree with you on some things. That's life.

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Actually, John's got a point, we ARE missing the bigger picture.

 

Trains are a thing of the past, old hat, we should be looking to the future...behold:

 

Airport_zpsgxs9eq8i.png

 

"Accurate artist's impression"

 

It will just work. Anyone who doesn't see it, is blind.

I thought you post constructive stuff? You're a WUM as much as anyone else.

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I'll admit it though ;)

 

I don't mind winding up other WUMs pal, taste of their own medicine.

 

Someone comes on here and calls us all idiots because we don't fully agree with him (sound familiar?), so I gave it back. What about it?

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John I agree to an extent with your points about accessibility transit and so on but do you have any idea of the process from a company (subsidised TOC) local authority and DFT to even start talking about reopening/redeveloping a line?

 

It's a painstakingly slow and vastly costly process trust me I know I drive the bloody things

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The points are:

  • A new stadium
  • In a new location
  • The transport access.

It not difficult. You are not from Liverpool. Work in transport? A bus driver?

 

Or road access and adequate parking. When I've visited stadiums in Britain compared to the US, a big difference is complete lack of parking at British stadiums. Coordinated transport definitely helps, if fans don't have to change trains or buses, but most people, I think, would prefer to drive.

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Actually, John's got a point, we ARE missing the bigger picture.

 

Trains are a thing of the past, old hat, we should be looking to the future...behold:

 

Airport_zpsgxs9eq8i.png

 

"Accurate artist's impression"

 

It will just work. Anyone who doesn't see it, is blind.

 

Missing the helipads on the stadium roof. Actually, for selling high-end business suites, that wouldn't be a bad idea!

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I'll admit it though ;)

 

I don't mind winding up other WUMs pal, taste of their own medicine.

 

Someone comes on here and calls us all idiots because we don't fully agree with him (sound familiar?), so I gave it back. What about it?

You're a pot calling kettle black.

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For me, the new stadium should be around 50 - 55,000 max capacity but built in a way that it can be expanded relatively easily. I personally don't believe that we will suddenly double our attendance figures.

 

Access to the stadium is important. Plenty of parking (underground car park? Multi storey?). Good access roads. And if possible, rail access close by. Bus depot, taxi rank. The lot.

 

The immediate area around the stadium should be an experience itself. A nice open space, with water features, big screens, up lighting, entertainment, food kiosks, trees/greenery, statues...all sorts of stuff going on.

 

It should be a multi purpose stadium for concerts, boxing, arts etc.

 

It should be open enough to be enjoyable on various occasions but closed enough to create a belting intimidating intimate footballing experience that echoes the Grand Old Lady.

 

And more importantly, it should totally overshadow that shambolic steep sloping pile of pig bollocks currently being built over the other side of Stanley Park.

 

Excellent work Newty. Spot on.

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For me, the new stadium should be around 50 - 55,000 max capacity but built in a way that it can be expanded relatively easily. I personally don't believe that we will suddenly double our attendance figures.

 

Access to the stadium is important. Plenty of parking (underground car park? Multi storey?). Good access roads. And if possible, rail access close by. Bus depot, taxi rank. The lot.

 

The immediate area around the stadium should be an experience itself. A nice open space, with water features, big screens, up lighting, entertainment, food kiosks, trees/greenery, statues...all sorts of stuff going on.

 

It should be a multi purpose stadium for concerts, boxing, arts etc.

 

It should be open enough to be enjoyable on various occasions but closed enough to create a belting intimidating intimate footballing experience that echoes the Grand Old Lady.

 

And more importantly, it should totally overshadow that shambolic steep sloping pile of pig bollocks currently being built over the other side of Stanley Park.

this all sounds good especially the bit about across the park but unfortunately we don't have enough space in this city.

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The points are:

  • A new stadium
  • In a new location
  • The transport access.

It not difficult. You are not from Liverpool. Work in transport? A bus driver?

 

The point was that YOU said that GOODISON PARK has poor access, not about a new stadium, you were critical of me saying GP has good access and now I have given reasons as to why I believe GP has good access you have completely changed what you were saying. I'll take that as a minor victory in this busy day I'm having.

 

I am from Liverpool, but I moved five years ago due to a promotion within the company I work for, a major transport company, in a management position.

 

Are you a train driver? or just one of these fellas that sit at the station with a pen and a pad?

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The point was that YOU said that GOODISON PARK has poor access, not about a new stadium, you were critical of me saying GP has good access and now I have given reasons as to why I believe GP has good access you have completely changed what you were saying. I'll take that as a minor victory in this busy day I'm having.

 

I am from Liverpool, but I moved five years ago due to a promotion within the company I work for, a major transport company, in a management position.

 

Are you a train driver? or just one of these fellas that sit at the station with a pen and a pad?

Haha touche

 

Reminds me of when two geeks were discussing excel formulas at our local with their laptop open. "Impossible, it's a Microsoft issue blah blah blah"

 

I enquired what the problem was and they laughingly dismissed my enquiry as "ah it would take too long to explain, whilst smirking at each other"... irritated enough I asked to see the spreadsheet,

 

"no, it's not impossible, you are using the wrong formula and you are doing that nested formula wrong anyway..."

 

Problem fixed, two red faces, and I carried on being a blokey bloke who seemingly can't operate a computer.

 

Love all that shit me.

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If Everton ever had a period of dominance we would step up the ladder in terms of appeal to fans in time. We would need a bigger ground.

 

It would be ridiculous of Everton not to build for expansion. ie aim for around 50,000 now, but have in mind the potential to raise to around 80,000.

 

If you think around 80,000 is too high you're missing the key point. There are 2 sides of 7000, 2 ends at 4000 and 4 corners at 2000 that could have extra tiers added. (figures are just rough examples).

 

 

Therefore expansion stages could be:

 

 

1. 50000 starter

2. 57000

3. 61000

4. 63000

5. 70000

6. 72000

7. 76000

8. 78000

9. 80000 finish

 

 

There are different permutations on the above as well, giving Everton the best possible options on how they wished to expand. It also would not matter what stage of expansion Everton reached. A smart design would still give the stadium a completed look even if you only reached say stage 4.

 

That is a general argument for stadium size for Everton that does not take into account space constraints but it should still be a model to get as close as we can to.

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80,000 is just not from this world. Santiago Bernabeu holds 81,000. That's Real Madrid's stadium and they have about 6 million people in the catchment area (greater Madrid). Old Trafford holds 75,000 and again, Manchester is much bigger. Chelsea have been successful for quite a while and they plan to build a 60,000 seater. In London.

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well to be honest ill need to start saving now for a trip to Goodison before it's retired. Maybe I can do a week where we have 2 matches and catch both like a Cup match and league match. either way time to find the piggy bank to start stashing some extra cash.

 

Same for me. I am shooting for 2017 but might slip to 2018.

 

The American experience with sports stadiums is much different so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. (Many or most American stadiums are paid for by taxpayers because American taxpayers are idiots and billionaire owners threaten to move the team if they don't pay up.) My city, Washington, DC, built a stadium for its baseball team that opened in 2008. It is a fairly unremarkable stadium--it does what it is built to do without charm. They located it in an underserved neighborhood that was dangerous for many, many years but it is basically built on top of an existing subway stop. It was a bit of a leap of faith to come to the stadium in the first few years, but a solid redevelopment plan, initiated in the late 90s has completely transformed the neighborhood in the past 6-7 years. In 2005, I wouldn't have felt safe here--now, I live in the neighborhood. They've got plans to build a stadium for the local MLS team in a similarly underserved neighborhood nearby and I suspect it will, coupled with redevelopment money nearby, serve that neighborhood well.

 

Admittedly, my understanding of Liverpool geography and politics is very limited. I'd recommend the Washington, DC approach if a similar neighborhood exists.

 

And lastly, and this is probably heresy, but a new stadium for Everton probably nets 50 events per year if you count league and cup matches, concerts and other random events. If you can get the reds on board, you are looking at 80-90 events. From a developer's standpoint, 90 events bringing 50K people to the neighborhood per year is a lot better than 50 events. If we need city government support to get this done, building the biggest coalition possible is a good strategy.

 

/dodges tomatoes

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50,000 is fine for us, but no harm in leaving space to expand should it be needed. If we were to build a stadium that couldn't be expanded it would be a waste of money.

 

I'd still prefer a redevelopment unless we could somehow get some land and build on the waterfront, with something unique and iconic.

 

Spurs have a great design, with a big single tier end stand, it looks modern and traditional.

 

Maybe The Rock stadium, Al Ain, that is some crazy design!

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80,000 is just not from this world. Santiago Bernabeu holds 81,000. That's Real Madrid's stadium and they have about 6 million people in the catchment area (greater Madrid). Old Trafford holds 75,000 and again, Manchester is much bigger. Chelsea have been successful for quite a while and they plan to build a 60,000 seater. In London.

 

 

 

 

 

The main point of being able to expand to 80,000 is that that figure gives you full options on how to expand. Plus you have the choice to rise up to any figure up to 80,000 you want. If you only allowed an expansion of 10,000 then you're seriously limiting your options on how to expand and the overall aesthetics on how it is to be done.

 

 

Also, I'm sure there was also a time when Man United fans would have scoffed at being able to go to 75000, yet they want more. They went up in 6 stages I think it was. It could be argued that Everton should be aiming to be the biggest club in England in every way, I'd hate us to rule that out.

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