Summer Transfer Window

[nogs]

5 hours ago, Btay said:

A number of factors have caused that though. We are on our 5th manager in that time ( including unsworth ).

Our problems were never going to be fixed this season, probably not next as well but we need to make small steps before big leaps.

13 games to play. 5 points off 7th. Hypothetically if we finished 7th - would people here consider that as an improvement.

Whatever the reasons are, we are not where we were 5 years ago. And we won't overtake Wolves to finish 7th, just like we couldn't catch Burnley last year. 

[Btay]

But we could have kept Big Sam and gone to city and had their defensive mid touch the ball more than our whole team again or go away to Liverpool and park the bus and just hope.

Im not saying im happy with how things are but I could see the style Marco was trying to implement and I want to give him time to actually try and get things in place. 

 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Btay said:

Im not saying im happy with how things are but I could see the style Marco was trying to implement and I want to give him time to actually try and get things in place. 

 

He's trying to force a style that doesn't suit the players he's got. He should be either picking different players suited to the system he wants to play, or find a system that works with the players he's got. Moyes was stale at the end and I would have gladly got rid of him about 3 seasons earlier, I was sick of the same 451 every week. Marco looks like me will be just as predictable. I want a manager who can see a weakness and exploit it rather than just do the same thing every week regardless. 

[Bailey]

12 hours ago, pete0 said:

I'd consider it the bare minimum. We were 14 points off 6th last year and brought in a new manager to get us in the mix of it, yet as it stands the gap is still 14 points. 

Alladyce got us 1.42 points per game so over a season you'd expect him to get 54 points. Factor in that was with Keane playing through injury next to an aging Jags, Rooney in midfield, DCL on the left wing, and both Coleman and Baines coming back from injuries plus nursing Bolasie back into the side. 

Effectively 7 out of 11 starters are better than last year be it physically or that they've been replaced. No idea how many more points you'd expect but the target should be pretty north of 54 to call it an improvement. 

Pickford = Pickford 

Coleman (coming back from injury) < Coleman 

Keane (playing with injections) < Keane 

Jagielka < Zouma

Baines < Digne

Walcott = Walcott 

Rooney < Gomes

Gana = Gana

DCL/Bolasie < Richarlison/Bernard 

Sigurdssen = Sigurdssen 

Tosun (lacked prem experience)  < Tosun/DCL/Richarlison 

 

That doesnt take into account the improvement of others though? Almost all of the top 6 are better than last season (albeit some more inconsistent), Wolves are far better than the relegated teams and West Ham, Bournemouth, Leicester have all also improved their squads, the former quite considerably. At the moment we are beating the sides that are worse than us and losing to those that are better.

[pete0]

25 minutes ago, Bailey said:

That doesnt take into account the improvement of others though? Almost all of the top 6 are better than last season (albeit some more inconsistent), Wolves are far better than the relegated teams and West Ham, Bournemouth, Leicester have all also improved their squads, the former quite considerably. At the moment we are beating the sides that are worse than us and losing to those that are better.

Bournemouth have only improved in one position with Brooks. West Ham in two with Diop and Anderson although the latter just balances the loss of Lanzini, they have the kid who's come through Rice but still not enough to expect them to finish above us on paper, they've been unlucky that a few have been injured though. Leicester two improved their starting eleven with Maddison and Periera, plus Evans on the bench. 

We finished above all these teams and have massively upgraded four positions in our left back, centre half, centre mid and left mid. All of these players would walk into the other teams below us. 

Wolves are better than the teams that went down. But we only took 2 points off West Brom so we're only down one less point in comparison. Even though we gifted Wolves the last game and threw away the first even though we only had 10 men for the majority. If anything Wolves have made it easier to close the gap at the top as they are taking more points off the top 6 than any of teams that went down. 

 

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, Bailey said:

At the moment we are beating the sides that are worse than us and losing to those that are better.

No shit Sherlock ‍  

 

 

 

I know what you mean but when you see it written it seems so obvious

[Bailey]

4 hours ago, pete0 said:

Bournemouth have only improved in one position with Brooks. West Ham in two with Diop and Anderson although the latter just balances the loss of Lanzini, they have the kid who's come through Rice but still not enough to expect them to finish above us on paper, they've been unlucky that a few have been injured though. Leicester two improved their starting eleven with Maddison and Periera, plus Evans on the bench. 

We finished above all these teams and have massively upgraded four positions in our left back, centre half, centre mid and left mid. All of these players would walk into the other teams below us. 

Wolves are better than the teams that went down. But we only took 2 points off West Brom so we're only down one less point in comparison. Even though we gifted Wolves the last game and threw away the first even though we only had 10 men for the majority. If anything Wolves have made it easier to close the gap at the top as they are taking more points off the top 6 than any of teams that went down. 

 

Bournemouth also signed Lerma who fits well and West Ham had a massive upgrade in manager and have also done well with Yarmalenko and Fabianski as well as sticking with Arnautovich up front which wasnt the case until Moyes arrived.

As far as I see most of these are tit for tat. You cant say that any one signing is streets above the rest other than maybe Gomes. 

[nogs]

On 06/02/2019 at 14:55, pete0 said:

 

We finished above all these teams and have massively upgraded four positions in our left back, centre half, centre mid and left mid. All of these players would walk into the other teams below us. 

 

But what about the teams above us, like Wolves and Watford? Or the team we're above on goal difference only, Bournemouth? Or even the teams we're just a point ahead of having played a game more? 

It's almost touching how much you cling to this 'massive upgrade' bollocks. 

[pete0]

50 minutes ago, nogs said:

But what about the teams above us, like Wolves and Watford? Or the team we're above on goal difference only, Bournemouth? Or even the teams we're just a point ahead of having played a game more? 

It's almost touching how much you cling to this 'massive upgrade' bollocks. 

What about them? 

Is Digne, Zouma, Gomes, and Richarlison not all big improvements? Plus Bernard in the squad. 

[nogs]

9 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What about them? 

Is Digne, Zouma, Gomes, and Richarlison not all big improvements? Plus Bernard in the squad. 

We've been here before Pete. The bar you set for 'big improvements' is clearly lower than mine. Three of them have done OK but are inconsistent, Digne the least so. Zouma imo is not good enough. 

Would all four walk into the Wolves, Leicester, West Ham, Bournemouth and Watford teams? I don't think so. 

[pete0]

42 minutes ago, nogs said:

We've been here before Pete. The bar you set for 'big improvements' is clearly lower than mine. Three of them have done OK but are inconsistent, Digne the least so. Zouma imo is not good enough. 

Would all four walk into the Wolves, Leicester, West Ham, Bournemouth and Watford teams? I don't think so. 

How many teams in the prem would take Jagielka, Baines, Rooney as a centre mid, DCL as a left winger? Whereas they'd all bite your hand off for the players we've brought in to replace them.

[Shukes]

10 hours ago, pete0 said:

How many teams in the prem would take Jagielka, Baines, Rooney as a centre mid, DCL as a left winger? Whereas they'd all bite your hand off for the players we've brought in to replace them.

To upgrade a player, it needs to be an actual upgrade though. Upgrading them when they are old is an unavoidable replacment.

Baines is a better player than Digne. Digne has potential.

Jags is a step above any defender we have by about a mile.

Rooney is one of the best forwards to have graced the premier league, we’ll never upgrade him.

DCL is our player still and we have brought a player into replace him. He’s young and we’re working on him.

Haha sorry don’t even know what you two are talking about and my comments are probably way off. I need to rest haha.

[pete0]

34 minutes ago, Shukes said:

To upgrade a player, it needs to be an actual upgrade though. Upgrading them when they are old is an unavoidable replacment.

Baines is a better player than Digne. Digne has potential.

Jags is a step above any defender we have by about a mile.

Rooney is one of the best forwards to have graced the premier league, we’ll never upgrade him.

DCL is our player still and we have brought a player into replace him. He’s young and we’re working on him.

Haha sorry don’t even know what you two are talking about and my comments are probably way off. I need to rest haha.

I'm on about them as players last year, as players who are old and past it. Compared to young fitter players who are more able to keep up with the pace of the prem. 

[nogs]

4 hours ago, Shukes said:

To upgrade a player, it needs to be an actual upgrade though. Upgrading them when they are old is an unavoidable replacment.

Baines is a better player than Digne. Digne has potential.

Jags is a step above any defender we have by about a mile.

Rooney is one of the best forwards to have graced the premier league, we’ll never upgrade him.

DCL is our player still and we have brought a player into replace him. He’s young and we’re working on him.

Haha sorry don’t even know what you two are talking about and my comments are probably way off. I need to rest haha.

I've given up tbh if he wants to see our signings last summer as 'massive improvements' to justify his view Silva should be sacked for mishandling them, let him. 

[Aidan]

If we can bring in another CB who can attack balls without getting scared and organsie the defence well, along with a striker who can put the ball in the back of the net and hold up the ball well, then I'm sure the whole team as a group will look a lot more composed during games.

Ramos and Kane then?

[pete0]

38 minutes ago, nogs said:

I've given up tbh if he wants to see our signings last summer as 'massive improvements' to justify his view Silva should be sacked for mishandling them, let him. 

So you'd pick the other players over them? 

Would you sack Brands for not getting better players in? 

[nogs]

8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

So you'd pick the other players over them? 

Would you sack Brands for not getting better players in? 

No I'd do neither you numpty. I'd give them time to get used to the Premier League (in a Digne, Bernard and Mina's case), I'd say thanks very much when his loan was over in Zouma's case and find someone better, and I'd give Silva time to see what he can do with a squad that was quite frankly a mess 7 MONTHS ago. 

You're not getting this patience thing are you?? 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

No I'd do neither you numpty. I'd give them time to get used to the Premier League (in a Digne, Bernard and Mina's case), I'd say thanks very much when his loan was over in Zouma's case and find someone better, and I'd give Silva time to see what he can do with a squad that was quite frankly a mess 7 MONTHS ago. 

You're not getting this patience thing are you?? 

So you agree all are better as you wouldn't pick last years players. You agree Brands done a good job. Yet you want patience for a manager who with better tools is doing a worse job than the last. Why would you give him more time? He's got the record for set pieces conceded per game managed at his last 3 clubs (he's ranked 1, 2, and 3 in Premier league history!).  He's not improving, and other than Wednesday hasn't looked like making any tactical changes even though it's not working.. But even then he used his subs and reverted back to the shitty tactics that have burnt out heads out. 

[Finn balor]

Good argument 

[Makis]

Except he's not doing if you look at the underlying stats. Both xGF and xGA have improved from last season. Goals from open play have almost halved and we have conceded seven less than last season at this point. 

[nogs]

Pete - why can't you just accept people don't agree with you on some things? You're now telling me what I do and don't think ffs! 

[Sibdane]

How many points have we lost from set pieces? Does anyone have that stat?

[pete0]

28 minutes ago, nogs said:

Pete - why can't you just accept people don't agree with you on some things? You're now telling me what I do and don't think ffs! 

I've summarised for clarity as I'm not trying to get you to agree, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. What's the logic? What are you forming your opinion from? 

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, Aidan said:

If we can bring in another CB who can attack balls without getting scared and organsie the defence well, along with a striker who can put the ball in the back of the net and hold up the ball well, then I'm sure the whole team as a group will look a lot more composed during games.

Ramos and Kane then?

How about Stones and Lukaku

[Palfy]

What amazes me is most of the people who rate Gana because his stats say he’s good, also rate the job Silva is doing and his stats aren’t good, the mind boggles

[nogs]

5 hours ago, pete0 said:

I've summarised for clarity as I'm not trying to get you to agree, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. What's the logic? What are you forming your opinion from? 

And I think I have been pretty clear too - in my opinion, from watching football for 30 plus years, it takes most managers longer than 7 months to have a genuine impact on a club. I think I have also been pretty clear that I don't agree with your view that the signings made last summer are so outstanding that our failure to be 7th in the league is all Silva's fault. Players, like managers, take time to bed into a team. Two of those singing have not yet even held down starting places. Two of the others have been inconsistent. I don't rate one of the other two. I also don't think those 6 signings were enough to put right the imbalance, the lack of depth and the lack of quality in key positions that were obvious last May and are still obvious now. 

In short, given all of the above, I am not in any way surprised by how things have gone this season. 

Which part of any of that are you struggling to understand? 

[nyblue23]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

What amazes me is most of the people who rate Gana because his stats say he’s good, also rate the job Silva is doing and his stats aren’t good, the mind boggles

I don’t think anyone on this site thinks Silva is killing it right now. Results obviously say otherwise, and his set piece statistics are abysmal. I know I think his set piece tactics are absolutely shit, and I would imagine pretty much everyone else on this forum thinks so, too.

Whether or not he’s doing a great job now is not the point. The point is that if we continue to have a revolving door of managers, no one will ever be able to come in and settle the squad, as it will continue to be an absolute hodgepodge clusterfuck of a squad. Establishing a winning culture can take time in any sport in any league, and is magnified even more in a league that is both the world’s biggest stage and a sport that relies so much on mentality.

It comes down to expectations and I think the majority of us happen to be a bit more realistic in our expectations than is anyone who is currently calling for Silva’s head.

[DownUnderToff]

Well said @nyblue23, we need to avoid the doom spiral of constant change now.

Working towards establishing that winning culture should hopefully include a club wide internal review at the end of the year.  Any areas of improvement & solutions identified, with the goals wholeheartedly embraced.

Hopefully that includes a solution to our set piece defending woes.  Near as I can figure (from a very rough and simplistic count), we've dropped 7 league points to set piece goals.  Silva/the club can't continue to hide from the failures in this area, even if it means bringing in a specialist defensive coach.

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, DownUnderToff said:

Well said @nyblue23, we need to avoid the doom spiral of constant change now.

Working towards establishing that winning culture should hopefully include a club wide internal review at the end of the year.  Any areas of improvement & solutions identified, with the goals wholeheartedly embraced.

Hopefully that includes a solution to our set piece defending woes.  Near as I can figure (from a very rough and simplistic count), we've dropped 7 league points to set piece goals.  Silva/the club can't continue to hide from the failures in this area, even if it means bringing in a specialist defensive coach.

What part of Silva’s statement don’t you get when he said he will not be changing his tactics on zonal marking he said he’s played it all his managerial career although it be a short one and getting shorter by the day and will not entertain changing it, he conceded a hat full of goals at Hull using it it cost him his job at Watford using it and he’s killing us using it, the man is not flexing in his approach to the game and his stubbornness on this issue is destroying the confidence of his players, damage already done and now further damage limitations need to be employed he needs to go. 

[Aidan]

20 minutes ago, Palfy said:

What part of Silva’s statement don’t you get when he said he will not be changing his tactics on zonal marking he said he’s played it all his managerial career although it be a short one and getting shorter by the day and will not entertain changing it, he conceded a hat full of goals at Hull using it it cost him his job at Watford using it and he’s killing us using it, the man is not flexing in his approach to the game and his stubbornness on this issue is destroying the confidence of his players, damage already done and now further damage limitations need to be employed he needs to go.  

It said on TalkSport the other day that the since Silva took over from Hull he has conceded the most set pieces per game.

A good manager sticks to his game plan and develops it so that eventually it works. But surly a great manager realises when there is no improvement and that the style doesn't work with the type of player at his disposal, and therefore changes their approach.

As much as I'm against players kicking up a fuss, there needs to be some kind of mutiny against Silva regarding zonal marking. The players need to voice their opinion and state that they are not comfortable doing this, and that they are clearly not adapting to it. Not that it would make much difference.