Fear and Loathing (USMNT 2018)

[Ghoat]

Several threads seem to divert into this from we yanks, and I'm as guilty as anyone.

Thought I would start a new one here for the current team moving toward the 2022 WC cycle.

 

Thoughts on the team this summer, starting with Bolivia friendly? 

Robinson was who I most wanted to see, from both club and country reasons, I thought he was excellent. Rest of the back 4 were solid enough

Pulisc didn't do much, but I thought Weston McKinnie looked good. He playing the 6 but was all over the pitch (in a good way). Adams didn't make roster, but MF is starting to look pretty good.

Most pleasant surprise was how well Sargent and Weah played together. They linked up often, lots of 1-2 passes. Surprised me for two 18 year olds who have never played together, let alone their first international caps - ignoring the 3 mins Weah played at end of last match.

Granted it was also a young inexperienced Bolivia side, but I thought for a team so young, they did about as well as could be expected. Lots of promise, but I'm a bit dismayed that we don't have

1) A keeper

2) A manager

 

[markjazzbassist]

yeah they need a good manager, that's the biggest need.  someone willing to play some decent football too, none of this work hard and try and eek out stoppage time wins while defending for our lives.  the talent and youngsters are there, just need someone to steer the ship.

 

i'd hire a foreigner, i'm not impressed with any of the american coaches.

[Sibdane]

I would say the future is very bright, especially from a technical point-of-view. I can't remember the last time we had so many youngster with such impressive technical ability. Weah, Sargent, Pulisic, McKennie, Robinson, and Adams will all go on to forge decent careers for themselves.

Weah really intrigues me -- he loves a trick, is very skillful, and he's breaking into a stacked PSG team. I think the next couple of years are going to be huge for him.

 

[Ghoat]

Weah seemed to cause lots of trouble with him movement, both on the flank and when coming inside. I'm not sure how much he has played on the right side of a 4-1-4-1. but he looked comfortable. He is exciting, but I was really impressed with his touches and flicks, seemed very unselfish inside the box. I do like the fact that and Sargent are both about 6'1 as well - 6-5" with hair! 

I wasn't familiar with Keaton Parks, can't say I see a lot of Benfica matches, but looked decent for a 20 year old in his first cap. I like the idea of a having a 6'4" presence in the MF if he can continue to develop. 

[Sibdane]

7 minutes ago, Ghoat said:

Weah seemed to cause lots of trouble with him movement, both on the flank and when coming inside. I'm not sure how much he has played on the right side of a 4-1-4-1. but he looked comfortable. He is exciting, but I was really impressed with his touches and flicks, seemed very unselfish inside the box. I do like the fact that and Sargent are both about 6'1 as well - 6-5" with hair! 

I wasn't familiar with Keaton Parks, can't say I see a lot of Benfica matches, but looked decent for a 20 year old in his first cap. I like the idea of a having a 6'4" presence in the MF if he can continue to develop. 

Benfica's manager has spoken about how he sees Parks as a player similar to Matic.

[Romey 1878]

I’m always intrigued by the US team and what’s going on with it, so keep the info coming lads. 

[Sir McGiven]

Ah, US soccer. I don't know which football game was it (probably FIFA) and which year it was but there was US League and I wanted to play to discover US soccer. I remember penalties were different. Please correct me if I am mistaken but they were being taken from a distance, right? I don't think so but have to ask, is it still like that?

Pulisic is a good prospect for future but US team always reminds me of how I admired Tim Howard, Jermaine Jones (didn't stick around much but we enjoyed to see him at my local team Besiktas in 2014) and also the global disappointment of Freddy Adu.

[nyblue23]

1 hour ago, tonkaroost said:

I would say the future is very bright, especially from a technical point-of-view. I can't remember the last time we had so many youngster with such impressive technical ability. Weah, Sargent, Pulisic, McKennie, Robinson, and Adams will all go on to forge decent careers for themselves.

Weah really intrigues me -- he loves a trick, is very skillful, and he's breaking into a stacked PSG team. I think the next couple of years are going to be huge for him.

 

The crazy part is the pedigree of most of these players will be so much better than any we've had and, like players from the European powerhouse national squads, they're playing for the best teams in their respective leagues. 

To have players from PSG, Dortmund, PSV Eindhoven, and Benfica is quite a step up in winning mentality from even our last world cup squad where Howard, Dempsey, Bradley and Cameron were not used to winning much in the way of trophies.

[Sibdane]

35 minutes ago, Sir McGiven said:

Ah, US soccer. I don't know which football game was it (probably FIFA) and which year it was but there was US League and I wanted to play to discover US soccer. I remember penalties were different. Please correct me if I am mistaken but they were being taken from a distance, right? I don't think so but have to ask, is it still like that?

Pulisic is a good prospect for future but US team always reminds me of how I admired Tim Howard, Jermaine Jones (didn't stick around much but we enjoyed to see him at my local team Besiktas in 2014) and also the global disappointment of Freddy Adu.

It's no longer like that -- not sure when they changed it exactly, but it's been awhile since it was like that.

Re: Freddy Adu -- I still can't believe how spectacularly he has fallen. He's now plying his trade with the Las Vegas Lights in the USL (second division), but last time I checked he hadn't played any minutes yet.

[Sibdane]

6 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

The crazy part is the pedigree of most of these players will be so much better than any we've had and, like players from the European powerhouse national squads, they're playing for the best teams in their respective leagues. 

To have players from PSG, Dortmund, PSV Eindhoven, and Benfica is quite a step up in winning mentality from even our last world cup squad where Howard, Dempsey, Bradley and Cameron were not used to winning much in the way of trophies.

Yep -- Dempsey is probably the most technical player we've ever produced, but Pulisic already blows him out of the water with ability. I imagine Weah isn'tt too far behind.

Pulisic is pretty much guaranteed to be a top player (already is for BVB).

[markjazzbassist]

11 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

The crazy part is the pedigree of most of these players will be so much better than any we've had and, like players from the European powerhouse national squads, they're playing for the best teams in their respective leagues. 

To have players from PSG, Dortmund, PSV Eindhoven, and Benfica is quite a step up in winning mentality from even our last world cup squad where Howard, Dempsey, Bradley and Cameron were not used to winning much in the way of trophies.

spot on, that's why we need a foreign manager, the MLS guys are all physical bob bradley (who i liked, so not slating him) defend first types.  we need a technical guy who picks skill players and relates well to the guys playing abroad.  the MLS guys give credence to mls players and it's a joke. 

[Sir McGiven]

13 minutes ago, tonkaroost said:

It's no longer like that -- not sure when they changed it exactly, but it's been awhile since it was like that.

Re: Freddy Adu -- I still can't believe how spectacularly he has fallen. He's now plying his trade with the Las Vegas Lights in the USL (second division), but last time I checked he hadn't played any minutes yet.

He even played (or "couldn't-play") for a low-rated Turkish team (Caykur Rizespor if I am not mistaken) but expectations were high from him when he was young, you are right about how he has fallen, it can be a case study.

But US soccer is growing now, I am checking it time by time. New adopted strategy is good, typical 'murican style, a good PR boost. (i.e. FIFA 18 story mode, our hero is unable to prove himself in EPL and goes to MLS for LA Galaxy. It gives you a taste of US soccer) Looking forward to seeing Pulisic's and Weah's development. If Weah could become a footballer half of his father, it'll be the success. He was a magnificent striker.

[Sibdane]

26 minutes ago, Sir McGiven said:

He even played (or "couldn't-play") for a low-rated Turkish team (Caykur Rizespor if I am not mistaken) but expectations were high from him when he was young, you are right about how he has fallen, it can be a case study.

But US soccer is growing now, I am checking it time by time. New adopted strategy is good, typical 'murican style, a good PR boost. (i.e. FIFA 18 story mode, our hero is unable to prove himself in EPL and goes to MLS for LA Galaxy. It gives you a taste of US soccer) Looking forward to seeing Pulisic's and Weah's development. If Weah could become a footballer half of his father, it'll be the success. He was a magnificent striker.

He was awarded Man of the Match against Bolivia (albeit a weak side), so signs are positive thus far.

[Bailey]

Is there any particular reason why you seem to have a lot more players coming through in Europe? 

[markjazzbassist]

39 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Is there any particular reason why you seem to have a lot more players coming through in Europe? 

1. dual nationalities kids

2. cheap untapped market (schalke has 2 well known US kids and just got another 1-2 this offseason, they are on to something)

3. US military  bases in germany, troops knock up german women and have german/american kids that are good but not enough for German team so they play for US (jones, johnson, chandler, boyd, green, etc).

[Sibdane]

For those to curious to see some of our young prospects.

[Ghoat]

47 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Is there any particular reason why you seem to have a lot more players coming through in Europe? 

I'm not sure there is one thing really, but I'd guess it's a couple different things.

Klinsmann did a good job reaching out dual-citizenship kids, especially those in Germany who father's were US Servicemen. Most of them were young, already playing in Europe, and uncapped. We just need some Army bases in Brazil now...

I think there are more kids now who have smarter parents that played the sport themselves at higher levels and realize that the US system has flaws in development. In America we seem to place a premium on raw athleticism - size, speed, strength etc, at the expense of technical skill. It "works" in basketball and US football. Not so much in footy, and parents that are wiser and understand high-level soccer also understand the domestic training is still a ways behind on the technical side.

I also think that the success of several of the current young crop coming into the USMNT has opened the eyes of both high-level/elite kids as well as their parents to the opportunities available in Europe for proper coaching and development. I think it's also made European scouts look more at American teenagers. Success breeds success so to speak. And right now, there seems to be a lot of young raw US talent heading to Germany. 

I'd like to think our "soccer" IQ is growing, Maybe one day in the not way way off future, we will be able to domestically develop world-class players. But currently, our system will continue to produce great athletes, because that's what we do. But to produce great footballers, we need those teenagers to be in European academies and systems as soon as possible, and that's exactly where most of our bright young stars are.

[Sibdane]

Coleman starting against the USA today. Hope he has a good game but hope ROI ultimately loses.

[Ghoat]

On 02/06/2018 at 14:21, tonkaroost said:

Coleman starting against the USA today. Hope he has a good game but hope ROI ultimately loses.

I was hoping for same, was disappointed that Robinson didn't get the nod at LB.

I thought we looked "decent" considering it is still mixing and matching players at positions, and we played what was pretty much the starting XI for ROI as a WC tune-up. Not a lot of positives other than young players getting quality experience playing time on foreign soil.  CCV looked a bit shaky, and Hamid....it just doesn't appear he is ever going to grow into what's needed. Terrible positioning, indecisiveness on coming off his line or staying, and getting stuck  between etc... We need someone to step up at GK so badly

[Sibdane]

1 hour ago, Ghoat said:

I was hoping for same, was disappointed that Robinson didn't get the nod at LB.

I thought we looked "decent" considering it is still mixing and matching players at positions, and we played what was pretty much the starting XI for ROI as a WC tune-up. Not a lot of positives other than young players getting quality experience playing time on foreign soil.  CCV looked a bit shaky, and Hamid....it just doesn't appear he is ever going to grow into what's needed. Terrible positioning, indecisiveness on coming off his line or staying, and getting stuck  between etc... We need someone to step up at GK so badly

Agree -- GK used to be the one position I wasn't worried about. I can't believe no one has stepped up to the task. Maybe Horvath if he can get decent playing time at Brugge.

[rubecula]

what was the final score?

[Ghoat]

12 minutes ago, rubecula said:

what was the final score?

2-1.  We got the opener at 45+1, Gave up the equallizer at 57 or so after GK was indecisive came out to punch a corner and got hung in traffic and didn't clear, was out of position for a tap in. ROI put the 2nd one in at 90', ugg...

Coleman was fairly quiet - a bit of a pest to be sure, missed a really good opportunity in second half I think when he came inside and had an open look. But honestly I was more bummed about Robinson not playing, both as an EFC and US supporter. Coincidence or not, we mostly played down the right side, some in the middle - but we had nothing on the left side at all. I'd have selfishly loved to see him going up against Coleman, even if he got his ass handed to him - who better to learn from than a teammate you can go back to later and break it down with.

[rubecula]

thanks Ghoat  

oh by the way  Leath Eirennach leath sassanach es ar me   

[Ghoat]

Just read this, it's long. A bit of it I knew, but most of it...holy crap! Damn fine journalism to me. Explains the "what" but not offering opinions on future track and such. But wow...

https://www.theringer.com/2018/6/5/17428184/2018-world-cup-us-soccer-inside-story-jurgen-klinsmann-sunil-gulati-bruce-arena 

[Romey 1878]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/07/hope-solo-2026-world-cup-united-states-bid-soccer

Thoughts?

[Ghoat]

Hope Solo is half crazy, but she is a GK so...

In all honesty, she has been a live wire for a long time - great keeper, but she doesn't always play nice with authority, never has. I think she is just bitter with US Soccer after it terminated her contact with the national team due to her legal and off the field issues. She may have a point or two about MLS, and she is entitled to her own opinion of course. But, I don't see how NOT hosting the WC "helps" US Soccer. I think this is more about her than the sport.

[markjazzbassist]

She’s mad they banned her so she’s taking it out on the WC bid.  The bits on MLS and promotion relegation I like but she’s just our for herself.

[Ghoat]

1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

She’s mad they banned her so she’s taking it out on the WC bid.  The bits on MLS and promotion relegation I like but she’s just our for herself.

^^^^^this^^^^

[Ghoat]

I'll say this - MLS is run very differently from every other other NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL. In those sports the owners run it, in MLS, MLS runs it. So far it's worked, they have build a weird model. but it's kept the league solvent and the teams afloat and grown without imploding.

It's run very differently from other FA's -

    The season is March-October instead of August-May due to the peculiarities of American pro sports. Do NOT try to go head-to-head with the NFL and College Football that run September-January. Both in terms of the fans attention/money as well as use of facilities (which is becoming less of an issue).

    Playoffs at end of season, because all American sports have a playoff

    No relegation. I think while in it's infancy this wont change. You don't have generational fans who will stick with a team. If an MLS team got relegated, you may as well close the franchise.      Atlanta United has incredible support - great venue, great atmosphere, the games are a blast and they put 50,000 in about every game. But drop them out of MLS, and how many people are going to go to that stadium on a Tuesday night to watch the 5 Stripes play the Cincinnati River Balls? 

 

I don't see MLS dropping it's "American culture" to line up with the rest of the world any time soon. As ideal as that would be, it's just not practical, IMO, any time in the near future. To do so would be the death knell of professional soccer/football in the US and drastically hurt the sport domestically overall.

 

[markjazzbassist]

the problems are that MLS controls everything, i hate that, the owners should control their own team and transfers.  Not so.  Rooney is neogotiating with MLS, then MLS allocates him to the team with "Next" in the allocation of new players.  This is dumb.  They do this so all the big names dont' just go to NY and LA, and have to go to Kansas City, Dallas, Orlando, etc.  But just like other leagues if they are a small city but play good football they will get the good players anyways.  dumb.

 

second issue, promtion relegation.  very american, all profit no penalty for doing shitty and being a shit owner.  

 

third issue the amount of money in the salary cap (see issue 1) makes for most teams to have 3 "top 5 europe league" level players, then maybe 8 championship/league 1 level players and then the whole bench/rest of squad is english non-league level players.  the depth in the league is non existent due to the salary structure.  hence not great end product on the pitch.