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Romey 1878

January Plans

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With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

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7 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

Yes.  Play DCL every match let him learn and grow.

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2 hours ago, Finn balor said:

With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

We need 3 strikers and Im not sure Richarlison wants to play up top. Relying on DCL for the reason of the season is not an option. 

If it was me, of the current crop and I could keep Richie sweet, I would switch between him and Tosun depending on opponent and use Niasse and DCL from the bench. 

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10 hours ago, Finn balor said:

With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

I would do the same.

As we saw Saturday, DCL had a decent half and we had many attacks, second half we felt on the ropes and our attacking play fizzled out.

As Bailey has pointed out, Tosun had more of the ball and more opportunity to do something with it. But watching it was blatantly obvious he isn’t at the level for this league sadly. 

Out of the two, DCL gets an assist and has an effort that he made himself saved smartly, though he should be doing better.

Tosun did nothing.

DCL is at the start of his career.

Tosun is in his prime.

Ideally though, I would get someone in.

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Problems with short term shite signings -

Hard to move on so we are stuck with them (Niasse).

Want bumper pay as this maybe their last contract

Takes up funds from transfer fee's and wages

Uses up FFP spending power.

They are shite and may score 3 goals for us but it just isn'tt worth it.

 

Why do people want short term target man signings? If you want football like that then I suggest getting a time machine and going back and trying to watch Koeman and Bisto snorter football. 100% not the type of football I want to see. DCL gets picked because he has a stupid amount of pace and his link up play is fairly decent.

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3 hours ago, aaron said:

Problems with short term shite signings -

Hard to move on so we are stuck with them (Niasse).

Want bumper pay as this maybe their last contract

Takes up funds from transfer fee's and wages

Uses up FFP spending power.

They are shite and may score 3 goals for us but it just isn'ttt worth it.

 

Why do people want short term target man signings? If you want football like that then I suggest getting a time machine and going back and trying to watch Koeman and Bisto snorter football. 100% not the type of football I want to see. DCL gets picked because he has a stupid amount of pace and his link up play is fairly decent.

Great points!

Must admit I was think more along the loan route or cheap wages/fee. 

You are right though, use the player for 6 months but pay him for 3 years!

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22 hours ago, Bailey said:

Target man would be someone whom the ball forward goes through, whether it be aerially or on the ground. A target man isnt an out and out goal scorer, they are their to win balls played forward to them and bring others into the game.

CF and Striker are the same thing for me. CF probably has a different meaning for the older generation but a target man would be a type of striker.

Your target man definition is DCL in a nutshell. 

CF for me is a jack of all trades (Niasse), a striker is someone who does nothing more than put the ball in the net (Tosun)

all three definions have the time and place, it’s up to the manager to know when to use them. 

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10 minutes ago, Matt said:

Your target man definition is DCL in a nutshell. 

CF for me is a jack of all trades (Niasse), a striker is someone who does nothing more than put the ball in the net (Tosun)

all three definions have the time and place, it’s up to the manager to know when to use them. 

Apart from the bring others into the game bit. I dont want a target man though, but if we are going to, Id want one that is better than DCL (without meaning to sound disrespectful to him). 

Btw I have never seen Niasse described as a jack of all trades 😂

Im not sure what I would describe Tosun as. I might create a new category.... definitionless striker.

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Just now, Bailey said:

Apart from the bring others into the game bit. I dont want a target man though, but if we are going to, Id want one that is better than DCL (without meaning to sound disrespectful to him). 

Btw I have never seen Niasse described as a jack of all trades 😂

Im not sure what I would describe Tosun as. I might create a new category.... definitionless striker.

DCL hasn’t had a run of games to get into the flow, he’s always thrown in at the end to jump for the big belt up the field. 

Niasse is the definition of a jack of all trades. He excels at nothing but does everything averagely (except scoring important goals!); closes down, holds up play, runs channels. 

Tosuns finishing is excellent but he’s being asked to play on a way that doesn’t suit him so looks worse than he is. If only our managers actually played players to their strengths instead of asking them to do stuff they’re not comfortable with or in positions they’re not right for...

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37 minutes ago, Matt said:

DCL hasn’t had a run of games to get into the flow, he’s always thrown in at the end to jump for the big belt up the field. 

Niasse is the definition of a jack of all trades. He excels at nothing but does everything averagely (except scoring important goals!); closes down, holds up play, runs channels. 

Tosuns finishing is excellent but he’s being asked to play on a way that doesn’t suit him so looks worse than he is. If only our managers actually played players to their strengths instead of asking them to do stuff they’re not comfortable with or in positions they’re not right for...

DCL started 5 games in a row earlier in the season and he has also now started 5 of the last 6 games.

Last season he started 9 games in a row and another 5 games in a row earlier in the season, starting 20 games in total.

If this was season 1, I would understand it, but he has played a lot of games now and he desperately needs to kick on. We are at the stage now where he either has to start being productive or he needs to drop a level and find his feet.

Now if you had said master of none I would have agreed! :) In fairness Niasse is a pure poacher, albeit with better work rate than you normally expect.

There arent many strikers that play just because they can finish. Strikers have to do much more than that.

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19 hours ago, Bailey said:

 

If it was me, of the current crop and I could keep Richie sweet, I would switch between him and Tosun depending on opponent and use Niasse and DCL from the bench. 

I don't get your logic on Tosun, you said in your own analysis he's below Prem average, why stand for that? I'd even suggest Niasse is a more natural goalscorer. 

I think we can a agree we need a striker. I'd be preparing a £60m bid for Callum Wilson in the summer and bring in an older, experienced forward in the meantime on an 18 month deal. Sell Niasse and Tosun to whichever bottom 6 club (or foreign side) coughs up the most cash and let DCL keep learning his trade, he is still only 21.

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21 minutes ago, nogs said:

I don't get your logic on Tosun, you said in your own analysis he's below Prem average, why stand for that? I'd even suggest Niasse is a more natural goalscorer. 

I think we can a agree we need a striker. I'd be preparing a £60m bid for Callum Wilson in the summer and bring in an older, experienced forward in the meantime on an 18 month deal. Sell Niasse and Tosun to whichever bottom 6 club (or foreign side) coughs up the most cash and let DCL keep learning his trade, he is still only 21.

I like Wilson also, and think we should keep DCL and let him learn alongside a better finisher than we have at present, I'm. not sure Wilson is worth £60m though, how much do you think we'd get for Niasse and Tosun? I'd be happy to pay £10m for Wilson over what we would get for our two.

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21 minutes ago, nogs said:

I don't get your logic on Tosun, you said in your own analysis he's below Prem average, why stand for that? I'd even suggest Niasse is a more natural goalscorer. 

I think we can a agree we need a striker. I'd be preparing a £60m bid for Callum Wilson in the summer and bring in an older, experienced forward in the meantime on an 18 month deal. Sell Niasse and Tosun to whichever bottom 6 club (or foreign side) coughs up the most cash and let DCL keep learning his trade, he is still only 21.

It was on the basis of what we have here at the moment and what will help us. Tosun is smarter, more experienced and whilst he lacks legs, we need to win the games we are dominating and he just has more guile. I would agree that Niasse is a more natural goal scorer but you just cant play off him reliably. Thats why I would keep him on bench because he is the perfect player to chuck on and cause havoc.

Im just at the stage where DCL has to start making strides forward and I dont see it. He has played a lot of games now, he isnt fresh out of the academy and whilst I do agree he needs to learn his trade for longer before he is written off, I dont think the right place for us is in our first team.

Fwiw there is no way I would spend that much on Wilson. If he was 22-23 with no previous injury problems then maybe but he isnt.

 

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12 hours ago, Bailey said:

DCL started 5 games in a row earlier in the season and he has also now started 5 of the last 6 games.

Last season he started 9 games in a row and another 5 games in a row earlier in the season, starting 20 games in total.

If this was season 1, I would understand it, but he has played a lot of games now and he desperately needs to kick on. We are at the stage now where he either has to start being productive or he needs to drop a level and find his feet.

Now if you had said master of none I would have agreed! :) In fairness Niasse is a pure poacher, albeit with better work rate than you normally expect.

There arent many strikers that play just because they can finish. Strikers have to do much more than that.

He’s also a kid trying to develop. Two runs of 5 games (I’m ignoring last season because where he was played and who was in charge) is not enough to develop understandings, especially when there’s change behind the front man. 

Id still give him until the end of the season, through thick and thin, and then see if we need to splash the cash, rather than bring in Llorente or someone else as an expensive short term fix. 

I also don’t agree that strikers need to do more. They have to strike the ball into the net. A forward has to do more. 

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On the Wilson price, he's just coming up to 27, English, scoring goals, under contract and Chelsea are in for him. If we want a forward who you can be confident would improve us, that's what it's going to cost. Otherwise, back to 21 year old prospects and crossing our fingers. 

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10 hours ago, Matt said:

He’s also a kid trying to develop. Two runs of 5 games (I’m ignoring last season because where he was played and who was in charge) is not enough to develop understandings, especially when there’s change behind the front man. 

Id still give him until the end of the season, through thick and thin, and then see if we need to splash the cash, rather than bring in Llorente or someone else as an expensive short term fix. 

I also don’t agree that strikers need to do more. They have to strike the ball into the net. A forward has to do more. 

I get what you mean about last season, however I don't agree that you can just write it off. If anything I would have expected last years exploits to have made him a better player this season because he had a hard job. He has a lot more talent around him now and he still doesn't perform any better. We have clearly had changes in the squad, with Bernard and Richarlison but Walcott and Siggy were here last season and so was Gueye, Davies etc. Its not a completely different team.

However you want to term them, whoever plays up front in this league needs to do more than score goals. I can't even think of a single poacher or "striker" in the league that plays regularly. Hernandez is probably the closest thing.

I don't disagree that he needs more time to develop, but I haven't seen any progression between this season and last season and therefore I think we need to consider a different approach away from the first team.

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I can't see DCL being at Everton long term I have no doubt he will develop in to a good PL player but not one pushing for European football.

We need a striker. If we can get one in January great, if not I'm happy to hold off until the summer.

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I get what you mean about last season, however I don't agree that you can just write it off. If anything I would have expected last years exploits to have made him a better player this season because he had a hard job. He has a lot more talent around him now and he still doesn't perform any better. We have clearly had changes in the squad, with Bernard and Richarlison but Walcott and Siggy were here last season and so was Gueye, Davies etc. Its not a completely different team.

However you want to term them, whoever plays up front in this league needs to do more than score goals. I can't even think of a single poacher or "striker" in the league that plays regularly. Hernandez is probably the closest thing.

I don't disagree that he needs more time to develop, but I haven't seen any progression between this season and last season and therefore I think we need to consider a different approach away from the first team.

The tactical side and a whole change in philosophy is enough to give most a second chance. Not to mention clearing out the stench of the last manager and ineptitude of Koeman. 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

The tactical side and a whole change in philosophy is enough to give most a second chance. Not to mention clearing out the stench of the last manager and ineptitude of Koeman. 

He is currently having that chance now and isnt doing a great deal with it. Yes the whole side still isnt settled tactically and players have been inconsistent. My problem is that DCL hasnt pulled up a daffodil let alone a tree this season. 

I fully agree that we need to give lads time and if a loan wasnt to be considered then I still think he can do a good job coming off the bench, I dont think he does enough to warrant starting as the main forward in a PL side with ambitions of doing more than surviving. 

I would actually love to see him go on loan to a Championship club for the rest of the season. Go to a team like Leeds, score a bucket full of goals and then bring that back to Everton in the pre-season.

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1 minute ago, Bailey said:

He is currently having that chance now and isnt doing a great deal with it. Yes the whole side still isnt settled tactically and players have been inconsistent. My problem is that DCL hasnt pulled up a daffodil let alone a tree this season. 

I fully agree that we need to give lads time and if a loan wasnt to be considered then I still think he can do a good job coming off the bench, I dont think he does enough to warrant starting as the main forward in a PL side with ambitions of doing more than surviving. 

I would actually love to see him go on loan to a Championship club for the rest of the season. Go to a team like Leeds, score a bucket full of goals and then bring that back to Everton in the pre-season.

Why not actually accept this season for what it is; damage repair and building for next?

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13 minutes ago, Matt said:

Why not actually accept this season for what it is; damage repair and building for next?

Because you might be happy to write the season off but lots of people wont. If we keep failing to score goals and pick up points pressure will mount around the club and that isnt going to help DCL or any of the other young lads. 

Its even getting to the stage where I think Davies might even benefit from a spell away from the club - cue an I told you so from @Markjazzbassist ;)

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12 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Because you might be happy to write the season off but lots of people wont. If we keep failing to score goals and pick up points pressure will mount around the club and that isnt going to help DCL or any of the other young lads. 

Its even getting to the stage where I think Davies might even benefit from a spell away from the club - cue an I told you so from @Markjazzbassist ;)

This is a project. Projects take time and anyone having to suffer change short term can just suffer it if it means a better long term solution. The fans need to deal with that else accept the last 3 years as the norm. As for the players, they know how the game works. 

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2 hours ago, Bailey said:

Because you might be happy to write the season off but lots of people wont. If we keep failing to score goals and pick up points pressure will mount around the club and that isnt going to help DCL or any of the other young lads. 

Its even getting to the stage where I think Davies might even benefit from a spell away from the club - cue an I told you so from @Markjazzbassist ;)

im glad youre coming around on him :rofl:

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2 hours ago, Finn balor said:

Buy young on cheaper wages. Maybe we would accept offers for Gana me maybe sigi if we get the money back we paid? 

I really hope that is the strategy and is what I expected under Brands. We need a couple more big money signings down the spine of the team, CF most importantly, and then a real leader in CM or at CB (both ideally). Everywhere else, invest in the future. That's why I feel no excitement whatsoever being linked to yet more high cost wingers and AMs we don't need. 

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44 minutes ago, aaron said:

Terrible shout that.

Why? What is there to accomplish this season in the league? FA Cup aside, there's nothing to play for, so why not prepare for next season?

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39 minutes ago, Matt said:

Why? What is there to accomplish this season in the league? FA Cup aside, there's nothing to play for, so why not prepare for next season?

Ask the match goers who have forked out loads if they are willing to "write the season off" coz I'm certainly not. I want to finish as high up the league as possible. Your out look of next season is small time if you think there is nothing to play for now. We can still finish in a European spot cant we? aim for that. Will a player in the summer want to join someone who finished in the bottom half? Doubt it. Problem is too many people have this sort of thought of "write it off" and its showing at the game now, no atmosphere, people turning on the players / staff coz they are "writing them off". How do you prepare for next season whilst giving up now? Again, terrible shout and is proper mediocre thinking. Support your club and will them on all the time and not give up the here and now.

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3 minutes ago, aaron said:

Ask the match goers who have forked out loads if they are willing to "write the season off" coz I'm certainly not. I want to finish as high up the league as possible. Your out look of next season is small time if you think there is nothing to play for now. We can still finish in a European spot cant we? aim for that. Will a player in the summer want to join someone who finished in the bottom half? Doubt it. Problem is too many people have this sort of thought of "write it off" and its showing at the game now, no atmosphere, people turning on the players / staff coz they are "writing them off". How do you prepare for next season whilst giving up now? Again, terrible shout and is proper mediocre thinking. Support your club and will them on all the time and not give up the here and now.

I didn't say "write off", or give up, so no idea what you're going on about. I said accept this season for what it is and prepare for next. To prepare for the next, you give the young players a chance to prove themselves. If they can't do it, we know where to invest. If they do do it, they've got confidence for next season and we save money. That's just common sense for me, and nothing to do with my support.

I want us to win every game, I want us to finish as high up as we can. If 7th is a Euro spot, then awesome! I just don't see it happening (1 win in 8).  7th is likely the max with 6th already 11 points ahead and United are gathering momentum. I'm just being realistic, 

This season was about undoing the damage of the previous 3 years and looking to the future - how is acknowledging that small time or mediocre? 

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20 hours ago, Matt said:

This is a project. Projects take time and anyone having to suffer change short term can just suffer it if it means a better long term solution. The fans need to deal with that else accept the last 3 years as the norm. As for the players, they know how the game works. 

I don't generally disagree with your overall point but we are talking about DCL who played the majority of games last season and without calculating, I would guess the majority of games this season. He ha played 36 senior games before he got here and he has played 25 times for England.  This isn'tt a guy fresh out of the academy who is wet behind the ears. He has almost played 100 senior games. If we plan another project around DCL it isnt going to get very far.

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21 hours ago, aaron said:

Ask the match goers who have forked out loads if they are willing to "write the season off" coz I'm certainly not. I want to finish as high up the league as possible. Your out look of next season is small time if you think there is nothing to play for now. We can still finish in a European spot cant we? aim for that. Will a player in the summer want to join someone who finished in the bottom half? Doubt it. Problem is too many people have this sort of thought of "write it off" and its showing at the game now, no atmosphere, people turning on the players / staff coz they are "writing them off". How do you prepare for next season whilst giving up now? Again, terrible shout and is proper mediocre thinking. Support your club and will them on all the time and not give up the here and now.

I'd say all the negativity is more to do with people watching a team in transition and expecting more than was ever really likely this season. We all hate losing, we all get frustrated watching us play shit, but the honest truth is we haven't got the players, squad or system of playing to be doing much better. We've been treading water on the pitch for five years, big changes have happened behind the scenes and mistakes have been made. We shouldn't sit back and accept one win in eight but there has to be some patience, let's talk about our prospects for Europe next January hey. 

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15 hours ago, Bailey said:

I don't generally disagree with your overall point but we are talking about DCL who played the majority of games last season and without calculating, I would guess the majority of games this season. He ha played 36 senior games before he got here and he has played 25 times for England.  This isn'ttt a guy fresh out of the academy who is wet behind the ears. He has almost played 100 senior games. If we plan another project around DCL it isnt going to get very far.

I’ve not said plan a project around him though. I’ve said use the rest of the season to help us identify if we have what we need. That means seeing if our promising youngsters like DCL, Lookman, Kenny, Davies etc are actually up for it, will be good squad filler or need to be sold (their value potentially increasing by playing and putting them in the shop window)

100 senior apps? I’d imagine 80 of them are from the bench and/or playing on the wing. 

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7 hours ago, Matt said:

I’ve not said plan a project around him though. I’ve said use the rest of the season to help us identify if we have what we need. That means seeing if our promising youngsters like DCL, Lookman, Kenny, Davies etc are actually up for it, will be good squad filler or need to be sold (their value potentially increasing by playing and putting them in the shop window)

100 senior apps? I’d imagine 80 of them are from the bench and/or playing on the wing. 

Lookman I agree is worth more time because we know he delivered in Germany and he looked lively this season.

Kenny had a big run last year but that was only his first year in the first team and it will be worth seeing if he improves this season. Jury is out at the moment.

Davies is in the DCL camp for me.

As an FYI, DCL has played just over 6000 minutes so that almost 65 x 90 minutes in the leagues and cups. He has started more games than I thought!

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13 hours ago, StevO said:

Don’t know why anyone would want to sell him. Even if we bought another winger, there is no guarantee they would play better. Lookman hasn’t done anything of note when he’s played to prove he should be starting. Maybe he needs more opportunities to play, but nothing to justify selling his competition. 

Im not Walcott's biggest fan but now isnt the time to be unnecessarily disrupting the squad.

There will be plenty of teams who will still want Walcott in the summer if Lookman can come through and prove his worth.

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46 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

I just think this season will end up a bit of a damp squib so make the changes as early as we can and get ready for next season. Get vlasic and Henry in the squad and we have options 

There is a 50/50 chance they could be shit. We have enough players who need to be sold much sooner than Theo. 

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4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Totally makes sense, sell niasse McCarthy schneiderlin and Somr youngsters to free up wages.

I don't think wages is the issue. 

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27 minutes ago, nogs said:

I don't think wages is the issue. 

There's been plenty of talk that Brands wants it much lower, it's around 80% of our turnover which is huge 

Far from being the worst in the league though but it goes hand in hand with having surplus players so hopefully we ship most of them out in the summer 

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41 minutes ago, nogs said:

I don't think wages is the issue. 

youre missing the point freeing up wages frees up money for transfers or wages for the new transfer.  money is money.  plus we have too big a squad and a bunch of the high earners never even play (schneiderlin, mccarthy, niasse, tosun, etc)

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We are have a potential wage bill of over 500K a week on players who are on loan or here and will never be first choice members of the first team squad if an alternative is available, Bolassie, Coco, McCarthy, Morgan, Sandro, Mirallas, Niasse, Besic, Cenk.

I know some are on loan, but like bad pennies and hot currys they will come back which mean we will have to pay them until we can offload them.

I absolutely agree with Moshiri that we need to get rid of them before we bring new players in, its financial madness to do otherwise.

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4 hours ago, nogs said:

I don't think wages is the issue. 

Wages is a massive issue. £250k is going on Sandro and Schneiderlin every week. In reality, we’re probably wasting the best part of £1m every week on players who simply don’t contribute. Fees for players isn’t the issue, it’s the wages we need to sort out.

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7 hours ago, Finn balor said:

Not really, if Morgan is on 70k a week and we get rid on loan do the math. If nobody wants to buy him he isn’t an asset by definition 

I meant as to how it’s processed by FiCo

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https://www.toffeeweb.com/season/18-19/comment/editorial/37549.html

Wages are operating costs, transfers are capital. The point is that Moshiri has invested £250m into the club and now, whether because of the stadium or because he simply thinks he has spent enough, appears to be turning the tap off. Yes we can reduce the wage bill (and should do) but that still doesn't mean there will be cash to make signings because the club makes a loss. Its all dependent on Moshiri, if he wants to invest more, we will have money to make signings, if he wants to tighten the purse strings, we will have to sell to buy. 

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6 minutes ago, nogs said:

https://www.toffeeweb.com/season/18-19/comment/editorial/37549.html

Wages are operating costs, transfers are capital. The point is that Moshiri has invested £250m into the club and now, whether because of the stadium or because he simply thinks he has spent enough, appears to be turning the tap off. Yes we can reduce the wage bill (and should do) but that still doesn't mean there will be cash to make signings because the club makes a loss. Its all dependent on Moshiri, if he wants to invest more, we will have money to make signings, if he wants to tighten the purse strings, we will have to sell to buy. 

Thank you! That’s exactly what I was trying to get at but couldn’t find the right words :) 

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It doesn't matter what term the cost comes under its still a cost to the club, fee's and wages go hand in hand and most certainly will be part of the reason why we won't be splashing money around  

If my missus said can we get a third car and I have the capital to buy it but she doesn't for the running costs it's illogical to go out and buy it and it's definitely something anyone with any common sense would take into account before doing so 

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6 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said:

It doesn't matter what term the cost comes under its still a cost to the club, fee's and wages go hand in hand and most certainly will be part of the reason why we won't be splashing money around  

If my missus said can we get a third car and I have the capital to buy it but she doesn't for the running costs it's illogical to go out and buy it and it's definitely something anyone with any common sense would take into account before doing so 

But having the money to spend on tax and fuel is pointless if you don't have several grand up front to buy the car in the first place. 

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Just now, nogs said:

But having the money to spend on tax and fuel is pointless if you don't have several grand up front to buy the car in the first place. 

Your agreeing with my point to a larger degree... so yeah I agree

I said the above because you said Moshiri has the money but won't spend for one reason or another hence my post 

It's been said multiple times wages are an issue so I'm not sure why it's even up for debate when we are spunking millions per month on surplus players wages 

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2 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said:

Your agreeing with my point to a larger degree... so yeah I agree

I said the above because you said Moshiri has the money but won't spend for one reason or another hence my post 

It's been said multiple times wages are an issue so I'm not sure why it's even up for debate when we are spunking millions per month on surplus players wages 

I’m not debating that we need to cut the wages down, was just pointing out that they’re handled differently and that reducing wages doesn’t necessarily free up transfer funds.  It frees up wages for any new signings for sure though 

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